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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 22, 2016 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:02, 22 Sep 2016.
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They did that? Lol! It doesn't really take a balance expert to tell how bad some of their features / balancing are, all it takes is common sense and occasionally apply some reason, but seems that's to much to ask. How can they fail to put two and two together, just amazing.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 22, 2016 11:01 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 23:04, 22 Sep 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
L-M-A-O. Whatever you say.
Once again, not trying to be offensive, but the depth of your reply speaks for itself.
If you aren't capable of defending your opinions, accept that they hold no ground. You're free to play and appreciate whatever you wish anyway. Just don't try to claim that soccer balls are a wealthier food than oranges, because common sense tells us the contrary and you're giving us no reason to take you seriously.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 22, 2016 11:30 PM |
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Momo said:
GenyaArikado said:
L-M-A-O. Whatever you say.
Once again, not trying to be offensive, but the depth of your reply speaks for itself.
If you aren't capable of defending your opinions, accept that they hold no ground. You're free to play and appreciate whatever you wish anyway. Just don't try to claim that soccer balls are a wealthier food than oranges, because common sense tells us the contrary and you're giving us no reason to take you seriously.
I am quite capable. I'm just not interested. I already have done it a big number of times but lemme give it a halfassed go if it triggers you so much
If you think that "objetively" the stories were better and the oldverse had a meaning/was more versatile/etc be my guest, wont be more correct. Not even the "magic is actually alien tech" part was new then, just new in videogames because MM franchise is snowing old.
The only claim the oldverse can make for having better stories and it was the exception not the norm and iirc one of the creators hated that it had that much story because it was "too rpg"
If you think differently do NOT let me know pls 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 22, 2016 11:59 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 00:02, 23 Sep 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
I am quite capable. I'm just not interested.
Well, I'm not interested that you're not interested. If you are capable -and willing- of defending your opinions, do so. If you aren't, you stand corrected. Admitting it or not doesn't matter.
And that you did it too many times in the past with other posters, writing I don't know what to counter whatever they were saying (which once again I cannot have any idea about) isn't really that relevant of a point.
And notice that apart from the two lines in your post -which once again basically miss entirely what HOMM lore was about- you aren't getting to the content of the issue, not even barely. Except on this:
GenyaArikado said:
Not even the "magic is actually alien tech" part was new then, just new in videogames because MM franchise is snowing old.
That's you thinking that the alien tech is what makes the OldVerse "better" (it isn't) in our eyes. Which once again shows how you miss the point. Which is actually pretty normal: I'd be bewildered if you actually got the meaning and message of a fantasy setting you're despising and not bothering to know.
But you're saying at least one thing valid here - the OldVerse is, duh, old. It wouldn't certainly be that innovative today as it was when it was conceived. The problem is that Ashan was borderline plagiarism just the day before it was even born. You can see the difference.
GenyaArikado said:
If you think differently do NOT let me know pls
Once again, your words comment themselves. You're simply unable to defend your preference with reasoning. Which is fine, but that's all it is - a personal preference. Just drop it really.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 12:13 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:15, 23 Sep 2016.
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OK, here are my first few impressions from the new patch:
- Most bugs are indeed removed but also several remain. I came across 4 or 5 different ones only in one session, including a new one (my Healing Sister somehow cloned itself on the secondary heroes).
- Somehow they messed up the animation on the Troglodyte. WTF. How did they even manage to do this, the unit was not changed in any way...
- Lower costs on Elites and Champions: very welcome, those were necessary. Most maps could be won with only cores before.
- Stronger Champions: Also good. Elites are balanced in my opinion, so they do not need to be touched (maybe single ones like the Strider, but not overall).
- Town Hall now gives ridiculous amount of money for its cost: Whatever. The town needed more income. This is not the most elegant way to do it however (bc you now have no option BUT to upgrade the town hall the moment the upgrade becomes available).
- Magic: I played with Light Magic and it seemed balanced. What is exactly the problem with Firewall? (just curious)
- Warfare: Didn't test it out.
@Momo: Your views on the Oldverse lore are very biased like I said before. Good lore but not as deep or special as you think. I don't think it is worth discussing with you about it as you seem very absolute in your posts. Ashan might be generic & shallow, but at least it is fleshed out across many games (both story-wise and visually) iand creates a cohesive whole. This gives it a lot of plus points over the old universe for me personally.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 12:15 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:35, 23 Sep 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
The only claim the oldverse can make for having better stories and it was the exception not the norm and iirc one of the creators hated that it had that much story because it was "too rpg"
That was JVC himself arguing that the gameplay had become too RPG focused, hence some of the changes in Heroes 4, but please do impress us with more hearsay as you usually do.
Story in the oldverse as you call it was a million times better than Ashan's, I think it's fair to say that by any measure of majority appeal, objective quality standards and basically common sense, this is established fact, and the only ones arguing the contrary are just here and there, no remarkable faces either. Even the M&M team themselves gave credit to the old universe with many easter eggs, references to Enroth / Antagarich / Erathia (MMX), up to having two unreleased scenarios by Terry Ray from Heroes 4 which Marzhin adapted as free DLCs to Heroes 7. There is no shortage of evidence to arrive at the correct conclusion, it's just people like you and others that were born in a different context than all the rest who played the first games that can only see one side of the picture, yet audacious enough to condescendingly antagonize the ones who have seen both and call Ashan out for the dumpster tier trash that it is.
Give me a break.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 12:22 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 00:26, 23 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
@Momo: Your views on the Oldverse lore are very biased like I said before. Good lore but not as deep or special as you think. I don't think it is worth discussing with you about it as you seem very absolute in your posts. Ashan might be generic & shallow, but at least it is fleshed out across many games (both story-wise and visually) iand creates a cohesive whole. This gives it a lot of plus points over the old universe for me personally.
Please explain to me what makes me biased. As I already said, I'm not bound to the old lore by nostalgia or by actually having played the games founded on that lore. I actually played Ubi Heroes a lot more than 3DO Heroes. But I am "biased". Where does my "bias" come from?
Maybe from wanting the approval of this community? I wouldn't be defending the Heresh Necropolis and the spider lich if I wanted approval, mind you.
Truth is "biased" is the only ammo you have to throw at me, the only way to not accept that to a third party who is not a newcomer nor an old-guard fan, the OldVerse actually sounds better.
And you still are at that fleshed-out stuff. It's not even a point. If a lore is generic and shallow, it just is, even if it makes the baseline for 2000 wonderful plots divided between 500 games. Which isn't even the case, the OldVerse has a lot of games based upon it too (I think more than Ashan does?) and many of the plots conceived around Ashan are not really great anyway.
EDIT: please keep in mind that to this day, the only user who even ever asked me to actually DO a deep and wide comparison of the two lore/settings to explain why I think one is better is verriker. Has to mean nothing, right?
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 23, 2016 12:27 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 00:32, 23 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
Please explain to me what makes me biased. As I already said, I'm not bound to the old lore by nostalgia or by actually having played the games founded on that lore. I actually played Ubi Heroes a lot more than 3DO Heroes. But I am "biased". Where does my "bias" come from?
Maybe from wanting the approval of this community? I wouldn't be defending the Heresh Necropolis and the spider lich if I wanted approval, mind you.
Truth is "biased" is the only ammo you have to throw at me, the only way to not accept that to a third party who is not a newcomer nor an old-guard fan, the OldVerse actually sounds better.
And you still are at that fleshed-out stuff. It's not even a point. If a lore is generic and shallow, it just is, even if it makes the baseline for 2000 wonderful plots divided between 500 games. Which isn't even the case, the OldVerse has a lot of games based upon it too (I think more than Ashan does?) and many of the plots conceived around Ashan are not really great anyway.
Well, someone who worships A and condemns B without finding any gray areas in-between, does not sound very objective, do they?
I have stated here many times that I have played enough games in both universes, read a lot of stories outside of games (be it on Heroes-related websites or wiki articles) and I generally enjoy anything related to Might & Magic, regardless of the universe it takes place in. Of course some stories are better than others (and I agree that Ashan is generic, shallow fantasy in its core that copies other brands), but it also has its merits (which I have stated repeatedly). I am a big fan of being able to visualize the stories and the universe, and Ashan does a much better job at giving me one whole, that is not fractured in ten million pieces and several parallel worlds.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 12:35 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 00:36, 23 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
Well, someone who worships A and condemns B without finding any gray areas in-between, does not sound very objective, do they?
Actually not too long ago, which is to say in this very same day, two posts before this one, I for (I think) the 20th time said that I think Ashan gets more hate than it deserves on these boards. But yeah keep on with the "biased" line of argumentation, see if it takes you anywhere. I still have to understand how can I be biased toward something I have no attachment to.
My point is actually pretty moderate after all - Ashan is a decent fantasy setting, Axeoth(and whatever came before) was a great fantasy setting for its age. Revamping Axeoth would've been more interesting than doing Ashan, which by no means implies Ashan should disappear.
Everything else, including the unsufferable arrogance with which Erwan LeBreton brought Ashan to us, the insulting disregard of the source material, the stubborn fixation with every single detail the public hated most, the proud detatchment with reality, etc it's LeBreton's fault, not Ashan's fault in itself. And it has little if anything to do with a discussion about lore.
Fact is, there are some who can't accept this point of view and the many solid, factual evidence behind it.
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 01:27 AM |
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verriker said:
I'd say not, worse light personally,
it only suggests he and his peers suffered from not only incompetence as a writer to create a solid story faithful to the franchise he inherited, but also from incompetence as a manager to identify the willing and able people who were equipped to, and laziness to not even bother trying to identify them, and arrogance to legitimately believe his works would be much better and more fashionable than the old lol
note I don't agree with you that failure is predestined and nobody else besides NWC can do that universe justice, it's a flexible universe and any decent writer can work on that without encyclopedic knowledge of games from 1986 etc (Heroes 4 barely references old games), also it's literally Erwin's job to know the franchise inside out, the problem wasn't with the task or the universe, it's with the lack of talent and effort lol
now any one of us could easily create a generic fan fiction world and shoehorn it in,
but if you're (Erwin) just going to do that and bin all the official fiction then you clearly have nothing special to offer and aren't qualified for the role of creative directing Might and Magic, and indeed there's nothing special about Ashan, it's a completely plain world and concept that belongs in the Altar of Wishes or a random fan campaign, not in official products lol
I haven't played H5 and on, so I can't comment on the quality of the story - though I don't think I need to, given all that I've read on Heroes forums - but I've been thinking along the same lines as above.
It doesn't take much research to get a feel for the Enroth / Axeoth universe. Honestly, just reading summaries of the plots would be sufficient to start planning new stories in the same universe. It really isn't that difficult..
Terry Ray created such a solid foundation in Heroes Chronicles and H4 that it's really a travesty in my opinion that it was left behind. There's so much room for new stories AND old stories that were never told, which is why I started my project for The Reckoning campaign.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 04:10 AM |
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Momo is obviously biased since hes being paid by 3DO, I thought that was known fact 
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 23, 2016 07:57 AM |
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Edited by Antalyan at 07:58, 23 Sep 2016.
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Elvin said:
Antalyan said:
ChrisD1 said:
Antalyan try casting firewall you will be pleasantly surprised 
Ok that's really scary - how they could have NOT noticed it during testing.
Why, what's going on?
The firewall deals damage to all the units in, whenever ANY creature of the player acts, not only when the unit in the firewall acts.
Who would play MP now when one spell breaks everything 
Momo said:
Ashan
Your arguments and opinions about Ashan can be various but you can never be right about it being objectively bad (or worse than the original universe). Nothing can be objetively considered as either bad or good because ratings are never objective.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 23, 2016 08:08 AM |
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say what you will about any of the universes, when the creator says they are actively trying to mimic something it can never be an original setting.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 08:58 AM |
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When the creator does not say they are trying to mimic smth, doesn't mean their product is more original.
@cadet_Momo
The fact that there was no internet back then,makes enroth seem original. Doesn't mean it was though. A certain trend was active back then and they took advantage of that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 10:05 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
.
- Town Hall now gives ridiculous amount of money for its cost: Whatever. The town needed more income. This is not the most elegant way to do it however (bc you now have no option BUT to upgrade the town hall the moment the upgrade becomes available).
The PROBLEM you describe just means, that they screwed up game economy. The "SOLUTION" they found is not "not the most elegant way", it just screws things up even more; keep in mind that with the way they are handling things you are not forced to invest more money into Elites/Champions. If you take, for example the Mine Wars map, there are TWO Core Out-of-town dwellings in your towns area of control. Add to that a creature special hero - say, Drakon, the Gnoll specialist, you get the following amount of Gnolls:
24, town dwelling
12, additional town dwelling;
8, for first outside town dwelling
8 for second outside town dwelling
3 times 12 Gnolls for the specialist (yes, they add to the out-of town dwellings as well)
= 88 Gnolls PER WEEK.
Bottom line is, they screwed things up, and what they did with the Town Hall is proof they have just no idea. I mean, if you adjust things in a way that makes something a matter of course (and now it obviously IS a matter of course to go for Town Hall on day 3, as long as you play at least "hard", whatever that means, then it becomes utterly redundant. Even if they simply had just increased the money VILLAGE HALL gives from 500 to 1000, that would have been a better move, since that would have Town Hall less obvious build, but served the same purpose.
Meanwhile it should be glaringly obvious that they have absolutely no idea .
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 10:57 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Meanwhile it should be glaringly obvious that they have absolutely no idea .
It was obvious the moment they released the game. Bugs optimizations etc.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 11:11 AM |
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Edited by Aionb at 11:14, 23 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
- Lower costs on Elites and Champions: very welcome, those were necessary. Most maps could be won with only cores before.
So, game was easy (read stupid?) enough to win it with cores most of the time and they solve it by making it even easier with more affordable elites and champions? (plus greater income from Town Hall?? Is this designed for kindergarten players?)
WTF, that's the point of elites and champions: they are strong/stronger and hard/harder to get with accordingly greater combat benefits.
All hail Limbic Warriors! Go home, really, wash the snowing dishes instead of tormenting Heroes.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 11:22 AM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 23, 2016 12:04 PM |
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Dudes please for all lore-related discussions be so kind to use the lore thread, I could include Sephinoth's scenario to the OP but spreaded discussions in this thread mixed with other gameplay or whatever discussions can doom some arguments to be lost forever in this spam thread, which is a shame.
Thanks for your understanding you will see it benefits all as some great deal of info and interesting viewpoints can spark out of these debates. 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 23, 2016 12:05 PM |
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Stevie said:
Not really, just designed by kindergarten devs.
Apes can't go to kindergarten. Yet.. srsly i don't know lizard warrior's proffession but he can do way more than those "proffessionals". This tells you smth.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
