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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 19, 2016 10:04 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 22:06, 19 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
The only thing I guessed is that you are incredibly biased 
I am actually very objective.
Erasing a fantasy setting for the sole purpose -and declaredly so- of making another that looks more similar, and actually way similar, to the mainstream successful fantasy setting of your time (while keeping the name that was rooted in the previous setting), is quality-wise a bad job of narrative. That is fact.
What is actually up to anyone's tastes is how good or bad the result is. You may find it highly enjoyable, I find it OK at most, some find it downright horrible. You may like it more, as much, or not as much as the previous setting. All of this is up to taste.
I may find Bloodborne more enjoyable than Bram Stoker's Dracula and The Call of Chtulhu, and HELL I DO. I find it more enjoyable, and no one can contest me on that, still Stoker and Lovecraft are pioneers while Hideataka Miyazaki is a game designer paying a homage; if I refuse to admit that, I am simply, and objectively, on the wrong side.
The worth of their efforts on the lore aren't a matter of taste. And it is a meager worth. It was much less effort than creating a more original world, or that finding new ways to keep the old one.
And notice how generous I'm being here. I am more than willing to skip over the fact that most of the plots are way worse than the lore they're in, I am willing to forget for the moment that Erwan LeBreton boasted about his lore like it was the new Lord of the Rings, I am willfully going by the hypothesis that the devs genuinely believed this lore was better than the old one, instead of assuming the obvious - that they ripped off Warcraft in the hopes of making money both by WC's fandom and by HOMM's fandom. As you see, I'm taking it pretty soft on the lore and its makers. It still is a mediocre work, with a barely decent result.
As I said many times, they could've made Ashan just as it is and still release great games settled in it. I still stand by this claim. It doesn't make Ashan a great product of narrative though. And if you see Warcraft and think "Hey that's Ashan" and still miss what's wrong with this, well, talk about bias.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 01:44 AM |
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Momo said:
I am actually very objective.
Erasing a fantasy setting for the sole purpose -and declaredly so- of making another that looks more similar, and actually way similar, to the mainstream successful fantasy setting of your time (while keeping the name that was rooted in the previous setting), is quality-wise a bad job of narrative. That is fact.
Thats not why they made Ashan tho
Quote:
The worth of their efforts on the lore aren't a matter of taste. And it is a meager worth. It was much less effort than creating a more original world, or that finding new ways to keep the old one.
Not even their own authors wanted to deal with that mess though
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 08:43 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 08:43, 20 Sep 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
Thats not why they made Ashan tho
Sure not. They explicitly wanted to make a new world that could be more relatable for new gamers and modern public and by coincidence they ended up with something very similar to maybe the most popular setting for teenagers and by coincidence they are declaredly huge fans of that setting that they coincidentally ended up imitating. I guess there are a lot of coincidence but what can you do.
Come on.
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Not even their own authors wanted to deal with that mess though
The thing is, you don't need to "deal with the mess" of the original setting to write good stories. One didn't need to know who Tarnum or Solmyr were to enjoy the campaigns of HOMM4. And to enjoy Gauldoth, in my opinion the best campaign to date, you didn't need any previous knowledge. Of course you can appreciate additional layers of narrative if you DO have previous knowledge, but that goes for any lore that has a few chapters in it, including Ashan's: you appreciate Fiona better if you know what her actions will bring, you appreciate Lasir better if you know how he'll end up, etc.
Second and most important, they could've rebooted the old universe rather than making a brand new one with virtually nothing to share with the old one.
As I said before, I could break down Ashan's lore in steps to show you where and when they did some choices and how these choices appear questionable. Or I could break down the Ancients&Kreegan lore and explain which are its cornerstones, how you can easily simplify it and take it to the modern public without losing its spirit. I could even explain why narratively speaking I think that Ashan's necromancers are a step in the right direction, unlike what most users here think. Most importantly, I could compare the two (AncientVSKreegan and Ashan) and explain why the latter is objectively a worse creative job. It would be a long job though, and probably a wasted one. If you don't get intuitively to the point, you probably don't want to get there in any case.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 09:11 AM |
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Ugh... D&D sold, they copied that. Warcraft sold, they copied that. And so it goes. It's not rocket science. It's (bad) marketing. That's it. No one was oh-so-holy and original, ever. After that it's all subjective. Pfft boredom sucks!
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 09:57 AM |
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Momo said:
Sure not. They explicitly wanted to make a new world that could be more relatable for new gamers and modern public and by coincidence they ended up with something very similar to maybe the most popular setting for teenagers and by coincidence they are declaredly huge fans of that setting that they coincidentally ended up imitating. I guess there are a lot of coincidence but what can you do.
Come on.
They were going to do just that with Axeoth but later they made made Ashan and name changed stuff. They didnt make Ashan to facilitate what you say, they did because they didnt want to deal with the baggage.
Quote:
The thing is, you don't need to "deal with the mess" of the original setting to write good stories...
I'm literally just stating the reason why they blew up Enroth for H4. Idk back then but at this point the old universe story is just as widely done as the Ashanite high fantasy approach so w.e. as long as they write interesting stuff its good for me H6, the council tales and the scenarios were interesting to me and thats all i have to say on the matter.
I'm not gonna get into a "should have they rebooted" debate or anything like that. Given the self contained way Ashan is handled they could always integrate it as part of the OldVerse (after all, the universe is infinite, maybe).
Can someone please give me a full summary of the Sephinroth scenario though? Do i have to beg?
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 20, 2016 10:28 AM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 10:31, 20 Sep 2016.
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GenyaArikado said:
Idk back then but at this point the old universe story is just as widely done as the Ashanite high fantasy approach so w.e. as long as they write interesting stuff its good for me H6, the council tales and the scenarios were interesting to me and thats all i have to say on the matter.
Although I liked the campaigns/scenarios in H6 (except the half-done and poorly implemented final maps of the base game), the storytelling in H7 feels much more detailed and alive. I like how they combined the stories' told by Ivan's councilors (great idea in itself) in a way that, although each councilor's "story" is separate, you still have few recognizable elements (characters, items, locations, events) crossing over from one faction's campaign to the others. Especially the Academy, Haven, Necro and Orc campaigns were masterpieces (I still haven't finished the final one and the 2 add-on campaigns). In-between the maps there is a lot of councilor bickering and clarifying remarks (e.g. what happens to certain characters after the story ends), which added cohesiveness to the whole and which I enjoyed a lot. And then you have the single-player scenarios (like the Sephinroth one), which are always somehow tied to a certain campaign (e.g. prequels) and give more depth to the characters and story. Now that I finished most of them, I can safely say that H7 delivers - from a single-player perspective - the best Heroes experience I had so far (pending the last few campaigns and half the scenarios).
GenyaArikado said:
Can someone please give me a full summary of the Sephinroth scenario though? Do i have to beg?
Haven't played it yet, but it's right there on my list. Don't you have acceess to the game any more?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 11:00 AM |
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Don't you have to have the expansion for access to that scenario?
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 20, 2016 12:03 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
Don't you have to have the expansion for access to that scenario?
If that's the case then my bad. I bought the complete version of the game (after ToF cam out), so I cannot tell which scenarios were there and which were added later.
@GenyaArikado: I promise to follow up with the Sephinroth scenario, I will prioritize it on my list :-)
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 20, 2016 02:42 PM |
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I dont own the xpack yeah. There are two campaigns?
Thank you SoilBurn :3
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 20, 2016 07:27 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I dont own the xpack yeah. There are two campaigns?
Thank you SoilBurn :3
Yes, a long Dwarven one (played 2 maps, average so far) and a short Haven one (have not touched it yet).
You are most welcome, I hope I can keep my promise on one of the upcoming days.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 20, 2016 07:31 PM |
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Dwarven campaign was interesting, haven campaign was boring.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 21, 2016 11:48 AM |
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Did anyone post the translated trailer for that Chinese heroes game?
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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 21, 2016 12:03 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Did anyone post the translated trailer for that Chinese heroes game?
I would like to try it. It has a lot of reused assets to from previous games, but if it will be similar gameplay as H3, who cares ...  The story looks like H3 /Restoration of E./ Ubi recycles everything... It's makes me kind of sad...
Thank you for posting this, I think it's time to buy a new smartphone..
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted September 21, 2016 03:43 PM |
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Quote:
They were going to do just that with Axeoth but later they made made Ashan and name changed stuff. They didnt make Ashan to facilitate what you say, they did because they didnt want to deal with the baggage.
What you call 'baggage' is (Ho)MM's and NWC's legacy that they COULD NOT integrate in Ubisoft games because NO-ONE KNEW THE LORE OF MM well enough to DO THE LEGACY OF MM LORE JUSTICE.
Eventually, they went as far as hiring a living MM ENCYCLOPAEDIA alias MARZHIN to try to salvage what they could. They ended up with improved narrative, but worse gameplay of campaigns, because Marzhin WASN'T a professional level designer, but rather a VERY CREATIVE AND PASSIONATE writer and connoisseur of all things MM.
When 3DO went bankrupt, the people behind the lore dispersed, and since they as the creators didn't need too many things written down, there was no 'lore bible' left behind.
Since the team couldn't possibly compete with, or even MAINTAIN MM lore, they (wisely) decided to leave the old world behind. They haven't made any wise decisions since then.
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Friend-shaped
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted September 21, 2016 04:53 PM |
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Wow the voice acting is sooooooo bad lol
So just of curiosity, why would Ubi be making anything new right now with vivendi taking them over?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 21, 2016 05:07 PM |
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Just to spam "We are Ubisoft" in their games.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 21, 2016 05:09 PM |
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The_Polyglot said:
NO-ONE KNEW THE LORE OF MM well enough to DO THE LEGACY OF MM LORE JUSTICE.
When 3DO went bankrupt, the people behind the lore dispersed, and since they as the creators didn't need too many things written down, there was no 'lore bible' left behind.
no offense but you literally sound exactly like Erwin there lol
since making that lame unconvincing excuse he admitted the truth is they actually just couldn't be bothered, we can see they had no problem collaborating with Paul and Rob and we can see how easy Terry was to contact too, and to work with, but Erwin didn't even try, he really wanted to insert his own fan fiction and would not be deterred lol
what's done is done though, and "Might&Magic: Heroes" is done for sure lol
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 21, 2016 05:19 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Just to spam "We are Ubisoft" in their games.
Iconic
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted September 21, 2016 05:44 PM |
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Erwin said the words himself during the fan day event "we made no real effort" didn't he?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 21, 2016 07:31 PM |
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He indeed told that right to our faces. Between some occasional frowns, all I could do was nod, mostly because of good conversation etiquette, but I guess it triggered Galaad. It was a unique experience to say the least, lol.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
