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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted September 27, 2016 06:17 PM |
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b0rsuk said:
The situation is similar to that of LEGO. In the past, LEGO sets were only lightly themed if at all. Kids were encouraged to build anything with them. Modern LEGOs have many very specific figurines and pieces made with famous licenses (Star Wars, ninjago, batman, angry birds, minecraft, hobbit... sets like this dominate the first page). Hard to make your own story when you start with batman pieces. The more defined they are, the less room for imagination.
This is probably the best comparison about Heroes games I have ever read! 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 06:20 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 18:39, 27 Sep 2016.
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SoilsBurn said:
*dismisses Momo's extensive response*
I put it to you that your posting here says more about your sincerity, attitude and capacity to debate than any reply I can possibly offer lol
Be fair to him mate, if he is out of ammo he can either remain silent, keep on with victimism and hominems which is worse than silence, or admitting is defeat in debate and the latter is a bit much to demand for an innocent internet discussion, this isn't trial in court you know. Overall I'm satisfied to win by forfeit.
b0rsuk said:
Ashan vs Enroth is a red herring.
I already got your meaning the post before - since the lore was hardly relevant at the times of HOMM and until HOMM4, what's the meaning in comparing it to a structured lore? And HOMM doesn't need to have that much of a lore anyway. I still disagree. just because a lore isn't thrown in your face it doesn't mean it isn't there, or cannot be compared to other pieces of work. In fact, in modern gaming there are even products which treasure and harness the advantages of having an obscure lore, see Dark Souls.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 27, 2016 06:26 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
You don't need a beastmaster hero, you need an omega-level mutant to manage so many beasts at the same time.
I'm a bit curious to know why would you need one of the X-Men to manage all the beasts in Heroes mate, why is this absurd and immersion breaking for you lol
bear in mind even in Erwin's games you can easily (well, if you can actually run the game without suffering a BSOD) conquer a few towns and create a completely wild lineup of for instance Wolves, Griffins, Panther, Manticores, Hydras, Wyverns and Behemoths, not a single sapient lifeform, and go about your day with no more than a small morale penalty, I didn't read any Erwin lore giving a justification to explain that contingency lol
it's loosely assumed that the average hero in HoMM is such a great leader they can mix and match an army out of anything he or she can recruit, or that the creatures come with offscreen handlers or something, it's all representative you just have to handwave it,
now for a faction with a +1000 year long culture dedicated to taming the monsters in the swamp, that can't be too far fetched is it lol
although Erwin always wanted to create these "soccer teams" out of the factions without really considering the gameplay implications, as if Elf heroes will only control the Elves and the Elf lineup, you can't really go down that racist route, in Heroes the kingdoms need diverse lineups to be entertaining and you can technically put anything in your army to suit your strategy, NWC embraced this and didn't overthink it lol
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 06:51 PM |
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frostymuaddib said:
b0rsuk said:
The situation is similar to that of LEGO. In the past, LEGO sets were only lightly themed if at all. Kids were encouraged to build anything with them. Modern LEGOs have many very specific figurines and pieces made with famous licenses (Star Wars, ninjago, batman, angry birds, minecraft, hobbit... sets like this dominate the first page). Hard to make your own story when you start with batman pieces. The more defined they are, the less room for imagination.
This is probably the best comparison about Heroes games I have ever read!
I second this. Great comparison and spot on!
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b0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted September 27, 2016 07:03 PM |
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Edited by b0rsuk at 19:08, 27 Sep 2016.
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And to push the LEGO analogy, old LEGOs from 70's were made with durable, high quality plastic and they still work today.
Fast forward to today and the word "plastic" is synonymous with cheap, disposable, bad taste, feeble, easy-breaking... In vintage sci-fi books they described houses and superhighways made of plastic, the material of the future! Nowadays the more expensive items are made of... wood, and that's what we call durable. Amazing.
I wouldn't mind Heroes of Ashan too much if it was something original, inspiring and unlike other game worlds. But it's the opposite - fantasy settings like Ashan are a dime a dozen today.
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 27, 2016 07:21 PM |
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Edited by SoilBurn at 19:22, 27 Sep 2016.
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It's ok guys. I understand that you are upset because the type of games that you like are not being made any more. To be absolutely honest with you, I absolutely sympathize with the situation and acknowledge where all this frustration comes from. It is of course a bit sad to see that you are passionately trying to persuade others that their tastes are wrong or something, but I also understand that you are fighting to protect the legacy of HoMM somehow 
The thing is, times change, and you either learn to adapt or raise walls around you and resist to change. Fairy-tale based factions are a thing of the 90's, whether we like it or not. Modern fantasy storytelling has moved away from random assortments of mythical beasts and more into coherent thematic contexts. To me personally this change is welcome, but I can understand why others might want to stick to the known formula.
I need to finish work now, I wasn't able to finish the 2nd Fortress campaign map yesterday and it has been quite a good ride so far.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 07:23 PM |
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Games with good stories and great gameplay are being made just so you know.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 08:00 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 20:02, 27 Sep 2016.
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Datapack said:
Games with good stories and great gameplay are being made just so you know.
How biased you are. Clearly affirming that many much better products exist out there with a better lore, plot, gameplay, software, or whatever, is the undisputable sign of an unjustified hate toward HOMM. Enroth is the past. Deal with it. Or something.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted September 27, 2016 08:45 PM |
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I missed the discussion. LEGO? Are they going to make a HoMM LEGO? Those that hurt your feet when you step on them?
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 27, 2016 11:11 PM |
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Momo said:
Datapack said:
Games with good stories and great gameplay are being made just so you know.
How biased you are. Clearly affirming that many much better products exist out there with a better lore, plot, gameplay, software, or whatever, is the undisputable sign of an unjustified hate toward HOMM.
How so? By pointing out that there are people who do a much better job at it than ubi?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted September 27, 2016 11:12 PM |
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PandaTar said:
I missed the discussion. LEGO? Are they going to make a HoMM LEGO? Those that hurt your feet when you step on them?
Yes, it's a spin-off based on the success of Ivan's figurine. They will be selling lego sets of all factions and individual heroes. However you need to be logged into Uplay when using them, otherwise lego-pieces will arbitrarily disappear and re-appear in a dark room when you are walking bare foot.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 27, 2016 11:18 PM |
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Brukernavn said:
PandaTar said:
I missed the discussion. LEGO? Are they going to make a HoMM LEGO? Those that hurt your feet when you step on them?
Yes, it's a spin-off based on the success of Ivan's iconic figurine.
Fixed the sentence.
____________
Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 11:34 PM |
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Elvin said:
Momo said:
Datapack said:
Games with good stories and great gameplay are being made just so you know.
How biased you are. Clearly affirming that many much better products exist out there with a better lore, plot, gameplay, software, or whatever, is the undisputable sign of an unjustified hate toward HOMM.
How so? By pointing out that there are people who do a much better job at it than ubi?
I believe he was speaking in a sarcastic manner, or at least that's how I read it.
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Datapack
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 11:37 PM |
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Elvin said:
How so? By pointing out that there are people who do a much better job at it than ubi?
Lol Momos post is obviously sarcastic. or so I hope 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2016 11:56 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 02:15, 28 Sep 2016.
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I think Elvin was being sorta sarcastic on his own 
That said, am I the only one that misses the mudland Fortress a lot? I mean, I absolutely love dwarves but that faction has a charm all its own.
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 12:38 AM |
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Momo said:
That said, am I the only one that misses the mudland Fortress a lot? I mean, I absolutely love dwarves but that faction has a charm all its own.
Likely my favorite faction of H3, even if it was fairly weak relative to others. I was quite fond of the atmosphere the town had.
I'd love to see it return, but most of it's creatures (Basilisk, Wyvern, Hydra, Gnoll) have been poached for other factions in the current universe. Quite a bit of creative work would need to be done to fit it into the current setting, if the faction limit was to be ignored.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 02:32 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
It's ok guys. I understand that you are upset because the type of games that you like are not being made any more. To be absolutely honest with you, I absolutely sympathize with the situation and acknowledge where all this frustration comes from. It is of course a bit sad to see that you are passionately trying to persuade others that their tastes are wrong or something, but I also understand that you are fighting to protect the legacy of HoMM somehow
And there he goes, flying toward his own parallel world, where we are just dots in the sky, a distant star radiating the cold, unforgiving and unimaginative light of reality.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted September 28, 2016 07:16 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 15:22, 28 Sep 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
You don't need a beastmaster hero, you need an omega-level mutant to manage so many beasts at the same time.
stopped reading
The_Green_Drag said:
frostymuaddib said:
b0rsuk said:
The situation is similar to that of LEGO. In the past, LEGO sets were only lightly themed if at all. Kids were encouraged to build anything with them. Modern LEGOs have many very specific figurines and pieces made with famous licenses (Star Wars, ninjago, batman, angry birds, minecraft, hobbit... sets like this dominate the first page). Hard to make your own story when you start with batman pieces. The more defined they are, the less room for imagination.
This is probably the best comparison about Heroes games I have ever read!
I second this. Great comparison and spot on!
third, wonderful analogy
+
this>
verriker said:
it's loosely assumed that the average hero in HoMM is such a great leader they can mix and match an army out of anything he or she can recruit, or that the creatures come with offscreen handlers or something, it's all representative you just have to handwave it,
now for a faction with a +1000 year long culture dedicated to taming the monsters in the swamp, that can't be too far fetched is it lol
although Erwin always wanted to create these "soccer teams" out of the factions without really considering the gameplay implications, as if Elf heroes will only control the Elves and the Elf lineup, you can't really go down that racist route, in Heroes the kingdoms need diverse lineups to be entertaining and you can technically put anything in your army to suit your strategy, NWC embraced this and didn't overthink it lol
verikker, to be honest when your posts first started taking on a tinge of denigration i was put off, but now i have a strong appreciation for your bluntness, and understand. keep up the good work.
b0rsuk said:
And to push the LEGO analogy, old LEGOs from 70's were made with durable, high quality plastic and they still work today.
...
I wouldn't mind Heroes of Ashan too much if it was something original, inspiring and unlike other game worlds (OR CHEAP & BROKEN). But it's the opposite - fantasy settings like Ashan are a dime a dozen today.
SoilBurn said:
Modern fantasy storytelling(warhammercraft of rings & thrones) has moved away from random assortments of(philosophical & ) mythical beasts(archetypes) and more into coherent thematic contexts bugs and race wars. To me personally this change is welcome, but I can understand why others might want to stick to the known formula.
fixt; cuz it was broken. if it aint broke, dont fix it.
ill be going into this in more depth in the future, but i feel its necessary to divulge a bit now..
in heroes of MIGHT and MAGIC I we had 4 CLASSES/CASTLES:
barbarian - offensive might & land speed - leads savage brutes
knight - defensive might & strength - defends civilization
warlock - magical power & intelligence - commands magical monsters
sorceress - magical knowledge & sea travel - protects mythical creatures
each class represented an archetypal dichotomy, and was comprised of befitting mythological races of similar ideological persuasions...
in heroes of MIGHT and MAGIC II we had 6 CLASSES/CASTLES, the 4 from the first game, plus 2 new dual classes:
necromancer - offensive might and magic - animates the dead
wizard - magic and defense - enchants magical beings
...we were encouraged to mix up towns, heroes, and troops.
in heroes of MIGHT and MAGIC III we had 20 CLASSES & 10 CASTLES:
stronghold - barbarians & battle mages - neutral offense
leads savage brutes
fortress - beastmasters & witches - neutral defense
defends beasts
castle - knights & clerics - offense of order
imposes civilization
rampart (sorceress) - druids & rangers - defense of order
protects mythical creatures
inferno - demoniacs & heretics - chaotic offense
calls demons
forge - cyborgs & technicians - chaotic defense
technology
conflux - elementalists & planeswalkers - magical power of order
summons elemental magic
tower - wizards & alchemists - magical knowledge of order
enchants magical beings
dungeon - warlocks & overlords - magical power of chaos
commands magical monsters
necropolis - necromancers & death knights - magical knowledge of chaos
animates the dead
in heroes of MIGHT and MAGIC IV we had 6 CASTLES, DEFINED BY IDEOLOGICAL ARCHETYPES, AND A WHOLE CLASS SYSTEM WHICH FURTHER INCENTIVIZED MIXING & MATCHING TOWNS, HEROES, AND TROOPS:
might - barbarian - leads savage brutes
nature - sorceress - summons mythical creatures
order - wizard - enchants magical beings
chaos - warlock - commands spawns of destruction
life - knight - defends the righteous
death - necromancer - animates dead and demons
^this is Heroes of MIGHT & MAGIC: definitively, epinomously, mechanically, traditionally, genetically, objectively...
things started breaking down in heroes V, as CLASSES/CASTLES were diminished to color-coded, race based "soccer" FACTIONS, with little to no intention of being mixed creatively:
might
attack - barbarian - orc
defense - knight - human
defense - ranger - elf
magic
power - warlock - dark elf
power - necromancer - undead
knowledge - wizard - magic
attack/knowledge - demon lord - demon
power/defense - runemage - dwarf
Might and Magic: Heroes VI introduced an entirely new FACTION paradigm based upon elements, and completely broke any cohesion with the franchises traditional mechanics:
dungeon - dark elf - dark
haven - human - light
inferno - demon - fire
necropolis - undead - earth
sanctuary - naga - water
stronghold - orc - air
..or at least any cohesion that i could surmise in what little playtime i could stomach.
h7 STILL isnt done yet.
more>
God what i wouldnt give for a view or save draft button on these boards ..
____________
yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted September 28, 2016 10:11 AM |
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Watching you pat each others' backs is rather exciting, you are a funny bunch
One serious and honest question however: If you all (or at least most of you posting recently) despise H7 and Ashan so much, why are you even frequenting this forum? Is it because the H3 forum is dead and you need a place to meet people of the same mindset? I have nothing against it (quite on the contrary), but maybe you should consider renaming the forum to not mislead people that actually want to speak about the game itself?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted September 28, 2016 10:20 AM |
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Heroes 3 WoG forum is more active than h7 will ever be, even after all those years. Where are the strategy, campaigns and balance discussions for h7 in this forum? Even you, the one that likes h7 so much, doesn't even bother to ... y'know... actually discussing the game. Oh, it is because the game is already dead and broken beyond repair? If you like the game so much, why do you need the feel to defend it here instead of either playing or opening a thread for talking about actual game stuff. I guess you can't stand seeing how you run out of arguments and feel the need to always defend yourself with such ridiculous statements?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
