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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 28, 2016 11:25 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
Watching you pat each others' backs is rather exciting, you are a funny bunch 
One serious and honest question however: If you all (or at least most of you posting recently) despise H7 and Ashan so much, why are you even frequenting this forum? Is it because the H3 forum is dead and you need a place to meet people of the same mindset? I have nothing against it (quite on the contrary), but maybe you should consider renaming the forum to not mislead people that actually want to speak about the game itself?
ironically Erwin didn't do a bad job capturing the ideological essence of half of the factions, he correctly understood what the Haven, Preserve, Academy and Stronghold were all trying to achieve in past games, but he botched it by making things all about race all of the time lol
Heroes isn't (or wasn't) a clash of races or gods, it's a clash of kingdoms and worldviews lol
for me the lineup shuffles in Heroes 4 are one of the most entertaining aspects of the series in terms of world building because they show it's 100% ideologies and causes dominating factions rather than a race, a single hero class or one of the gods stolen from Disciples,
the Dwarves and Elves have split because of an ideological schism, their traditions are broken by the Reckoning and the Dwarves pragmatically realised they lost one planet already, their society needs to get on with it and is a better fit with the orderly types, while the Elf kingdom continues to obsess over whatever forest it finds itself in and tries to cope with the destruction of previous one it was attached to,
the Efreeti and Kreegans disagreed, rather than just bungling all these red, hellish guys together, they have distinct goals and motivations,
Efreeti have moved to the swamp with all the mindless lunatics and outcasts because they share the lawless and destructive attitude of the chaotic, while the slightly more cold and calculating but endangered Kreegans struck up a precarious alliance with the undead, as it's easier to preserve your race when the skeletons do the fighting,
Orcs, Trolls and Ogres have also gone their completely separate ways, the shamanistic Ogres and indeed the rugged Centaurs and Harpies finding kinship with the human barbarian tribes, the Orc society went down Tolkien's path for them and have turned into vandals and undesirables, while the Trolls abstain from politics, they just go into their caves lol
and each race has individuals who turned their back on the majority and have signed up to other factions like Yog, Damala and so forth lol
even if you disliked the Infernopolis for instance, which you're right to, you must admit it was very meta and interesting, in that at least they're not just playing into lazy expectations of what these beings would do,
like oh the Devils would never practice necromancy and mix with the Undead because it's thematically unsuitable or the gameplay doesn't fit, well of course they would mate if they have to lol, they're supposed to be intelligent beings with a hopes and dreams looking to survive in a world, not just pawns, themes or mere cartoons lol
as Erwin would say, "it's a lot like real life as we know it" lol
sure one may say it is does not seem to be in vogue with the dime a dozen fantasy approach of Humans hate Orcs hate Elves hate Dwarves etc, but that's the whole point, the most common creative mistake hacks make when they handle somebody else's license is to make the series bland, by destroying whatever stands out about that property, in order to copy and piggyback on whatever's currently trendy in the market, lacking any longsightedness or self-awareness (just look at anything Hollywood is doing or the new Metal Gear Solid zombie survival game lol) lol
certainly I'd say Erwin's reliance on a racist mentality in recent games is not at all what I'd call a modern approach anyway, that's the hoary old traditional approach both in reality and fantasy, I'd say it's more regressive and easy than anything lol
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 28, 2016 11:46 AM |
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let's close this ugly personal aspect of the debate guys, I let SoilBurn know what I thought of that aspect of his posting some pages ago, he toned it down a bit and we can more or less carry on, I think we shouldn't dwell on trading condemnations and slights at one another in an endless loop because this doesn't feed the mind, please let's try to talk HoMM with whoever is constructive and ignore uncontributive posts lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 28, 2016 11:59 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:09, 28 Sep 2016.
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I'm going to delete some of the previous posts ... put on your asbestos armor if you want to stand in the armageddon!
Edit: Cleaned up.
I realise I let some of the provocations as they are, because I have to draw a line somewhere. The mods can't police the forum to death, but we still have to intervene if things go too far south. For the past few days, things have been smoldering on both sides with temperatures rising, so we've kept an eye on it, but the recent posts crossed the line.
It's ok to disagree - passionately, if you feel strongly about it - but keep it focussed on the game, not on personality traits. Tastes is one of those. Challenge eachothers' opinions, not eachother. And if you challenge the opinion of someone else, be prepared to have your opinion challenged in return. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the focus is on the game, not the person.
Thanks for your understanding.
Oh, and you can take off the asbestos armor for now.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 28, 2016 02:11 PM |
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So, uh, what happened to the skillwheel, then?
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 03:45 PM |
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Out of everything in H7, I actually like the skillwheel the most. It's not perfect, but it could be refined pretty nicely with a little more work.
Something I've been mulling over recently for this system, what if magic schools were learned two at a time? For example:
Earth / Fire
Water / Light
Dark / Air
One of the major complaints I've seen leveled at this system is that those looking to learn all the magic schools are severely hindered, and this would assuage it quite nicely, though it does present a few problems on it's own that can be addressed.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted September 28, 2016 03:59 PM |
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SoilBurn said:
One serious and honest question however: If you all (or at least most of you posting recently) despise H7 and Ashan so much, why are you even frequenting this forum?
Morbid curiosity.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 04:13 PM |
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Varnoc said:
Out of everything in H7, I actually like the skillwheel the most. It's not perfect, but it could be refined pretty nicely with a little more work.
Something I've been mulling over recently for this system, what if magic schools were learned two at a time? For example:
Earth / Fire
Water / Light
Dark / Air
One of the major complaints I've seen leveled at this system is that those looking to learn all the magic schools are severely hindered, and this would assuage it quite nicely, though it does present a few problems on it's own that can be addressed.
They have hit a dead end here. Basically spoken, there is obviously a limit for the number of useful spells; for one thing, with H5 and H7 you invest level-ups to improve the effect of spells (which means, IF you do that, you obviously want to USE that spell, otherwise, why improve it in the first place; and for another, you can cast only one spell per combat round, so you need passive perks as well in battle.
Therefore, the whole design isn't really suited to create REAL "magic heroes". Looking at things from the Might perspective, you have to invest TWO levels into Magic in order to learn T2 spells. This CAN be two Novice or one Novice and one expert skill, allowing you to also pick a few magic abilities. (2 lavel-ups) If you want to learn T3 spells, you either need to learn a magic skill up to Master OR two up to Expert (3 or 4 level-ups). If you want to learn T4 spells, you need 5 level-ups in two skills.
Imo, this is pretty ridiculous, because it is fairly obvious that you are well-equipped as a Might hero to acquire magic, while for a magic hero it doesn't really pay to invest into a lot more magic skills, because you need others as well to gain passive leverage and not be slaughtered immediately. With the random system you DO get a lot of magic offered. With skill-picking, well, the road is paved, isn't it?
In short, the system is not well-designed, because there isn't a lot you can't do magically with a Might hero. Keep in mind that magic is about battle CONTROL; casting a massive damage spell is all nice and well, but they are bound to be either too powerful or too weak by design.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted September 28, 2016 04:22 PM |
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LizardWarrior] Where are the balance discussions for h7 in this forum? /quote said:
Nobody understands H7 balance, it's one of the strangest things there. You can find out really hardly, what's intended as a new balance feature (due to incomplete patch notes) and what's a bug. Also this "balance" differs in duels, skirmish, campaigns... Hopefully one day, it will be modded in the "right" way and especially the same for all parts of the game.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 04:26 PM |
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I don't think, you can balance H7 at all.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted September 28, 2016 04:42 PM |
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Maurice said:
I'm going to delete some of the previous posts ... put on your asbestos armor if you want to stand in the armageddon!
May I keep saying that H7 sucks, but in a sort of disguised and polite manner, every now and then?  Pwetty please, with sugar on top?
I can't wait to discover what H7 unravels next. 
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 04:51 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 16:52, 28 Sep 2016.
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verriker said:
ironically Erwin didn't do a bad job capturing the ideological essence of half of the factions, he correctly understood what the Haven, Preserve, Academy and Stronghold were all trying to achieve in past games
Exactly so.
I suppose you'll disagree, but he also got quite well what made the undead of the HOMM unique - the fact that they don't see undeath as a means (for revenge, for power, for whatever) or as a curse (imposed by others or by their own pain, attachment to life, or whatever). They actually do consider undeath a purpose in itself, a desirable state for all humanity, an evolution of the mortal life.
HOMM3 went about this by making them all a bunch of drFrankenstein-minded individuals, HOMM5&co tried a more evoluted approach by making them literally lovers and preachers of undeath, celebrating their most fascinating aspects like eternity, tranquility, spiritualism etc. I don't think it was a bad approach per se.
On preserve I am not entirely sure, instead. By separating elves from dwarves it seems to me that he missed the inherent and important non-racial theme of the town. It's different to miss a detail or atmospheric touch (eg the wizards use arab architecture in snow territories because they're magical and they can do whatever the f*** they want) from the core spirit of a faction (rampart is about the fairy aspect of nature, not about a race).
verriker said:
he botched it by making things all about race all of the time lol
verriker said:
Heroes isn't (or wasn't) a clash of races or gods, it's a clash of kingdoms and worldviews lol
While this is very true, I don't entirely agree you see. It was a clash of worldviews, but it was sometimes nice that even the main actors didn't actually act as expression of a faction but as their own.
I made an example of the undead vision of things, but bear in mind that among the five main undead heroes in HOMM3-4 (Finneas Vilmar, Sandro, Lich King Gryphonheart, Gauldoth Half-Death, Master Kalibarr) actually only one shared the vision of Deijya, the others merely took advantage of it for their own feelings, ambitions and philosophies. Take on the opposite Arantir: he just walks around in ToTE to preach the creed of his faction, forwarding the purpose of his faction, leaving the scene as soon as his faction does. Period.
I think they "botched" it for a variety of reasons, not just because the Ancients' backstory is better than the dragon gods' backstory. I think that making everything easily schematic, classified, ruled, and dictated by lore (speaking aesthethics, of plots and of characters here, but notice that gameplay is also dictated by lore, and that their marketing is virtually centered only about lore and 0 about gameplay) is how they went overboard and ruined even the good parts the lore had.
Example, I saw Cate Griffin's portrait for half a second in HOMM6 and I could tell: "Hey so Cate went with the Dark Dragon Malassa!" Why so? She didn't say anything about Malassa in that scene. Because it was color-paletted. Because everything and everyone in Ashan is clearly divided, catalogued, colored, branded, and finalized. To Erwan LeBreton's lore.
I also think this is why is LeBreton who capitalizes so much hate from the fandom.
SoilBurn said:
One serious and honest question however: If you all (or at least most of you posting recently) despise H7 and Ashan so much, why are you even frequenting this forum?
Maybe the answer lies in the fact that, as I said to the point of vomit, I don't despise Ashan at all.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 28, 2016 04:54 PM |
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Antalyan said:
Nobody understands H7 balance
Not even limbic!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 04:58 PM |
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Yeah, great design, when balance is something like an afterthought (and in this case quite elusive).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 28, 2016 05:04 PM |
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Btw nice read verriker.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Varnoc
Hired Hero
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posted September 28, 2016 06:31 PM |
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Edited by Varnoc at 18:32, 28 Sep 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
They have hit a dead end here. Basically spoken, there is obviously a limit for the number of useful spells; for one thing, with H5 and H7 you invest level-ups to improve the effect of spells (which means, IF you do that, you obviously want to USE that spell, otherwise, why improve it in the first place; and for another, you can cast only one spell per combat round, so you need passive perks as well in battle.)
Therefore, the whole design isn't really suited to create REAL "magic heroes". Looking at things from the Might perspective, you have to invest TWO levels into Magic in order to learn T2 spells. This CAN be two Novice or one Novice and one expert skill, allowing you to also pick a few magic abilities. (2 lavel-ups) If you want to learn T3 spells, you either need to learn a magic skill up to Master OR two up to Expert (3 or 4 level-ups). If you want to learn T4 spells, you need 5 level-ups in two skills.
Imo, this is pretty ridiculous, because it is fairly obvious that you are well-equipped as a Might hero to acquire magic, while for a magic hero it doesn't really pay to invest into a lot more magic skills, because you need others as well to gain passive leverage and not be slaughtered immediately. With the random system you DO get a lot of magic offered. With skill-picking, well, the road is paved, isn't it?
I've always been fond of the old Might and Magic RPG's magic system; Certain skills are available at the Novice rank, leveling up to Expert both improves the function of Novice spells and grants access to Expert level spells as well, leveling up to Master continues the process, etc. Thus limiting both the quantity and effectiveness of spells attainable by Might Heroes (Assuming you limit them to Expert, while Magic Heroes could take it straight to Grandmaster).
---
Quote:
In short, the system is not well-designed, because there isn't a lot you can't do magically with a Might hero. Keep in mind that magic is about battle CONTROL; casting a massive damage spell is all nice and well, but they are bound to be either too powerful or too weak by design.
IMO, I feel that the entire combat system in HoMM should probably be reevaluated. There's so few ways to influence the battlefield right now that it basically amounts to: Deal damage, Modify Speed, Initiative, or Attack/Defense.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted September 28, 2016 07:58 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 19:59, 28 Sep 2016.
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Momo said:
I suppose you'll disagree, but he also got quite well what made the undead of the HOMM unique - the fact that they don't see undeath as a means (for revenge, for power, for whatever) or as a curse (imposed by others or by their own pain, attachment to life, or whatever). They actually do consider undeath a purpose in itself, a desirable state for all humanity, an evolution of the mortal life.
HOMM3 went about this by making them all a bunch of drFrankenstein-minded individuals, HOMM5&co tried a more evoluted approach by making them literally lovers and preachers of undeath, celebrating their most fascinating aspects like eternity, tranquility, spiritualism etc. I don't think it was a bad approach per se.
yeah I guess you're right about that when you mull it over, the basic concept from Erwin as you describe it is not really a contradiction of previous games, when you take away the god aspect lol
I left it aside because I do think it needs to be more multidimensional than Erwin would have it though, there ARE the power-hungry crazy cartoon villain Necromancers harvesting entire populations for their own crazy revenge, just as there are the mad fundamentalist fanatics of the Haven who want to destroy everything heretical to them, IMO Erwin underrepresented these too much,
as you pointed out, outside of Heroes 4 we spend more time in the games taking charge of the megalomaniac Necromancers, neither for Darkmoor (Heroes 2) nor Deyja itself do we ever control them in an incarnation where they're not twisted, in Heroes 3 even the sane Necromancers who later rebel against Gryphonheart are still vindictive people out for revenge against Erathia, who gleefully ravage their lands, murder them and raise their dead,
so you could argue the toss over what the normative, representative state is for those kingdoms and the faction's motivations (historically Deyja's politics and motivations are similar to your description, but Krewlod is historically similar to Mel Gibson's Scotland and later angry shamanistic barbarians, yet in Heroes 3 they're more like a money hungry foreign legion, which of these three things best represents the H3 Stronghold, well that's up for debate) lol
the Necropolis is a bit different to other towns in that sense, it's not a race-oriented town per se, they are a uniquely discriminatory town (only undead need apply), since undead is not a race but a subset of various other races I think the factions need to be able to encompass the rational side of necromancy, the mindless slave side, the tragic emo side, and the beautiful side, but I think it's a mistake to pretend all the undead can ever have a singular goal and present them all unified as part of one god's cult, who are all sniffing spider venom, etc lol
Momo said:
On preserve I am not entirely sure, instead. By separating elves from dwarves it seems to me that he missed the inherent and important non-racial theme of the town. It's different to miss a detail or atmospheric touch (eg the wizards use arab architecture in snow territories because they're magical and they can do whatever the f*** they want) from the core spirit of a faction (rampart is about the fairy aspect of nature, not about a race).
true indeed, well that's what I'm getting at more or less, he wasn't wrong apart from the Elves racial thing lol
IMO, the racial monopoly is a problem with that town both in Heroes 4 and Heroes 5, even though Heroes 5 is more extreme about it it's still the Elf town in both incarnations (dominated by only Elf heroes and some humans),
if it were up to me, I think it would have been logical to fold the Lizardmen into that town for Heroes 4 to give it a bit more diversity and spice, however the complete absence (extinction?) of the Lizardmen and Gnolls in Heroes 4 is a powerful decision which works to amplify the tragedy of the Reckoning and extend the story's themes, so maybe it's better off the way it is lol
Momo said:
While this is very true, I don't entirely agree you see. It was a clash of worldviews, but it was sometimes nice that even the main actors didn't actually act as expression of a faction but as their own.
I made an example of the undead vision of things, but bear in mind that among the five main undead heroes in HOMM3-4 (Finneas Vilmar, Sandro, Lich King Gryphonheart, Gauldoth Half-Death, Master Kalibarr) actually only one shared the vision of Deijya, the others merely took advantage of it for their own feelings, ambitions and philosophies. Take on the opposite Arantir: he just walks around in ToTE to preach the creed of his faction, forwarding the purpose of his faction, leaving the scene as soon as his faction does. Period.
I should have clarified that IMO in the bigger picture overall we have kingdoms/worldviews/themes/terrains clashing (as in, that's the basic premise the factions themselves are built upon, even in the most changeable example we can still recognize a very obvious legacy, motivation and line of commonality between The Warlock Faction, The Swamp Faction and The Chaos Faction, but The Dark Elf Faction and The Malassa Faction cease to follow) lol
of course certainly, the actual stories themselves don't always represent the premise of the faction or flow directly from it, or it would be a predictable and boring story, we'll see characters of other factions gradually coming around to the philosophy of the new ones (Tarnum and Yog), characters advancing or shifting the faction from within (like Emilia and Kilgor), etc, often the stories will subvert the premise of the faction to keep things fresh, but the premise is what it is lol
Momo said:
I think they "botched" it for a variety of reasons, not just because the Ancients' backstory is better than the dragon gods' backstory. I think that making everything easily schematic, classified, ruled, and dictated by lore (speaking aesthethics, of plots and of characters here, but notice that gameplay is also dictated by lore, and that their marketing is virtually centered only about lore and 0 about gameplay) is how they went overboard and ruined even the good parts the lore had.
Example, I saw Cate Griffin's portrait for half a second in HOMM6 and I could tell: "Hey so Cate went with the Dark Dragon Malassa!" Why so? She didn't say anything about Malassa in that scene. Because it was color-paletted. Because everything and everyone in Ashan is clearly divided, catalogued, colored, branded, and finalized. To Erwan LeBreton's lore.
I also think this is why is LeBreton who capitalizes so much hate from the fandom.
lol you got that right for sure lol
well when I say he botched this or that for this or that given reason here, I'm still firmly focused on this whole NWC compared to Ashan narrative where lore and themes and the like is the topic, certainly I'm not disagreeing with the borsuk posts where he's arguing that binary narrative is wrong and that lore shouldn't even be near the forefront, and I could write a lot longer about everything that feels wide of the mark in Erwin's work from all sides, but that'll take all day lol
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 29, 2016 02:09 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 08:24, 29 Sep 2016.
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Apologies for the lenght fellow readers but I just enjoy debating on interesting things! The gameplay doesn't offer much of them, so! Sorry everyone!
And thanks verriker for the good stuff! That said...
verriker said:
there ARE the power-hungry crazy cartoon villain Necromancers harvesting entire populations for their own crazy revenge,
Yes, true. But see that from their perspective, in their eyes they are sacrificing a few guinea pigs to complete the path that goes from religion (---> sorcery ----> alchemy ----> necromancy ---> ...) to a universalized godhood state, which means basically to create an humanity that trascends death and pain. And they are hated and persecuted for it. Notice that Bracada and Erathia don't wish to regulate their research or avoid abuse of it, they just want to flat-out wipe out them and all of their knowledge without compromise. Queen Catherine is the first who actually shows some measure of diplomacy toward undead except Archibald Ironfist which, well, was a twisted guy so he doesn't count.
So yes - they want revenge, and they use the magic they aptly mastered to get it.
Finneas Vilmar is described as a guy who wanted to end the moderate policy of Deyja and get payback for their persecution. It plays intrigue and becomes actually king of Deyja, then he brings Gryphonheart back for the purpose. And dies, ok, but he still makes sense as a character.
It is also mentioned of a Church of the Sun adverse to a Church of the Moon (the latter condoning the use of necromancy) that was so stubborn and extreme in their persecution that they led themselves to ruin and their country along with the rival Church of the Moon. Basically for erathians institutions to erase undeath and researches on it is a holy call.
This doesn't mean the necromancers are good people of course or a bunch of misunderstanded benefactors (they think they are though, probably). It means they have a credible motivations, which is exactly what Erwan LeBreton accused them to lack (it was in some interview I think?)
You know, just because a videogame's lore isn't thrown in our face with wall of texts it doesn't mean it isn't there. If you are interested in motivations (you might not be) these are there to be found and they are solid and even fascinating.
NB: I knew nothing of most, actually nothing at all, of this before I started doing researches to understand why old school fans hate the new lore. The more I delve deep in the 3DO lore, the more fascinating and full of potential it sounds.
verriker said:
just as there are the mad fundamentalist fanatics of the Haven who want to destroy everything heretical to them, IMO Erwin underrepresented these too much,
Well we got to be fair to Erwan LeBreton and admit that the fanatic side of Haven was barely hinted in the original games (Church of the Sun could be considered a minor example). Haven (Castle) and Inferno actually had an apparent flat morality that would make everyone cringe. On the other side, there are background reasons for that. Kreegans expecially are bio-engineered weapons created by some eldritch civilization to disrupt the order (=ravage the worlds) created by the Ancients, so they have not much space for a morally valid standpoint.
verriker said:
so you could argue the toss over what the normative, representative state is for those kingdoms and the faction's motivations
Yes, which made things more interesting!
Are the barbarians and the mudlanders really the remnants of a noble resistance against the Wizards Kings of Bracaduun, or maybe they are crude, brutish, power hungry mercenaries reveling their uncivilized state? Is AvLee truly the sanctum that encompasses all life in nature, or they are just naive idiots who don't ever act when they should (Shaera's father, king Parson) or let psychos command them (Gelu, Harke) without having a clue? Is Bracada a light of progress and science or the heritage of a century-long tyranny? Are necromancers just medics who went very extreme in fighting death or they're just maniacal sadists?* Does a middle ground even exist, between preserving life and trascending death, or between techological/magical order (=control) and an uncivilized freedom?
*(interestingly, there's also a long-standing question of ancient philosophers about surgeons actually being repressed sadists)
This is moral complexity! This is having contradiction and conflict! This is an adult story! These are themes! Not Isabel burning a few peasants alive to act all gritty dammit!
And once again yes - nothing of this is thrown in your face in the games, but all of this is part of the lore.
verriker said:
who are all sniffing spider venom, etc lol
Good heavens, the spider venom. Why do I have to remember about the spider venom? How goddamn stupid.
It's probably my own personal taste though - I hated the spider venom idea and I love the undead sphinx (lammasu) unit, surely there are some out there who feel the opposite.
verriker said:
*stuff about factions in HOMM4*
Yeah but to be generous with HOMM4, it gave its story-related reasons as to why races where mixed, divided, etc etc etc
I think you made a post about that yesterday?
verriker said:
The Dark Elf Faction and The Malassa Faction cease to follow
Because Dark Elves are the most unrelated thing to the old lore Erwan LeBreton could ever hope to conceive ever. By no coincidence is also the one that most screams Warcraft.
verriker said:
of course certainly, the actual stories themselves don't always represent the premise of the faction or flow directly from it, or it would be a predictable and boring story,
Just like so.
verriker said:
I'm not disagreeing with the borsuk posts where he's arguing that binary narrative is wrong and that lore shouldn't even be near the forefront,
I don't think b0rsuk is entirely off the mark, but I still think that a subtly hinted lore, or an hard-to-research lore, or a lore distributed into a lot of chapters, by no means are lore with less dignity or strenght. I genuinely think 3D0's lore was pretty good. Not being forced down your throat could be considered a plus, anyway.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 29, 2016 10:32 AM |
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Well I'll put all this in the lore thread at some point.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted September 29, 2016 11:19 AM |
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Reading all that stuff about the old lore made me kinda curious, where can i read more about it, aside from the games? The wiki or is there a better place?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 29, 2016 11:25 AM |
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Check the OP of the lore thread, there is Cepheus's basics lore lessons which are great if you haven't read them.
The best is to play and replay the RPGs and Chronicles though I guess.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
