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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 04, 2016 11:45 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Why people still play Heroes 3?
Hello NimoStar, the spiders have informed me this is a myth.
Thanks for your feedback, it is very valuable to us.
Ubi-Galaad
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 05, 2016 12:16 AM |
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NimoStar said:
If they wanted special balance for campaigns they can easily do it with scripts, custom maps and/or special heroes...
Easily means unfathomable in their vocabulary. That's that.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Aionb at 00:22, 05 Oct 2016.
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Galaad said:
NimoStar said:
Why people still play Heroes 3?
Hello NimoStar, the spiders have informed me this is a myth.
Thanks for your feedback, it is very valuable to us.
Ubi-Galaad
And please try verifying your files.
If the problem persists, please contact our Support Team https://support.BSsoft.com including a LimbicwareDiag report and BS info.
Thanks.
All hail LimbicWarriors!
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 12:29 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 00:33, 05 Oct 2016.
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Heroes of Might and Magic VIII
was made possible by KICKSTARTER
and over 117,000 bakers!
New World Computing, Inc. would like to thank everyone who has offered their support, critisism, and encouragement.
We couldn't have done it without you.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 01:29 AM |
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NimoStar said:
t's like nobody cares for it 
Because rather than terrible or downright mis-crafted (as HOMM6 was, for instance), HOMM7 is bland. It's not interesting or captivating in any of its aspects and you could easily name similar games which beat it in almost every field (lore, gameplay, variety, software, etc etc). As I said more than once, if you wait for them to patch it into a playable thing (a long wait this time, it seems) the game isn't that bad, but it just invokes indifference and disappointment.
AlexSpl said:
Heroes of Might and Magic VIII
was made possible by KICKSTARTER
and over 117,000 bakers!
New World Computing, Inc. would like to thank everyone who has offered their support, critisism, and encouragement.
We couldn't have done it without you.
lolwut
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2016 03:11 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 03:18, 05 Oct 2016.
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I think he was suggesting financing HOMM from Kirckstarter and bringing New World Computing back from the dead with it, but with copyrights (and many from NWC dead after 15 years? ) it's not likely to happen... but new games with such an inspiration could be made.
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Perhaps the developers were sniffin' on spider venom...
I have noticed the trend towards "generic fantasy" since Heroes 5, but it has gotten steadily worse (at least Heroes 5 was a good game to compensate and mostly true to the Heroes 3 system - although lore-wise, their "race based factions" were bad. Six of the seven fortress units were dwarves...)
Ashan lore is bad, you just can't get into the game. You are right in that the game is bland - but it's also because the lore is bland, the heroes are flat, even the UI is bland. The "everything is elemental dragons" makes it feel like the story doesn't have any grander progression... fight is eternal and set in stone. In Heroes III and before, big things happened. Kingdoms were founded and destroyed. Hell, whole worlds exploded (this was a bad move : P, but it shows how willing they were to shake things up!)
Also, yes, the generic fantasy component was always there, but there was also the backstories lurking which had a whole evolving universe, planar travel, the whole sci-fantasy backstory...
Now in Asha factions are just proxy armies, pawns for dragons which basically cannot be destroyed since they are "gods", but also do nothing interesting. How boring. You feel like you are doing somebody else's job in an automated manner instead of being a key part in a dynamic story.
Even in Heroes IV, all heroes had biographies which showed succintly who they were, what drives them to adventure, how they relate to their societies, etc. - even the ones for necromancers and demons were convincing and different enough.
You can already see the shift even in the opening cinematics: The Heroes III one was climatic and brave, it showed things which you were to experience in the game campaign - stuff you were not necessarily familiar with: Golems fighting minotaurs, Nagas vs. Harpies, Black Dragons and Titans... a female ruler trying to lift up her kingdom, sailing and examining the ruins of a recent battle, reconstructing the facts ... the "strategy" part was definitely there, and it wasn't a generic setting.
Now fast forward to ubi cinematics, and what's it?
It's always the nice Holy Human kingdom being attacked by either demons or undead... bride kidnap and such things. Yes, nicely done graphically speaking, but where's the mood? It's just a generic RPG setting you can't even care for what happens there...
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Sumsum
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 09:23 AM |
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Galaad said:
Why people still play Heroes 3?
Well I don't think I can explain it properly, but I at least, think that playing Heroes III is fun, I got used to the heroes, I got used to the towns and the playstyle and it's addictive. Ask anyone on heroescommunity WHY did they come here ? To talk more about their games, to find people of their age playing Heroes (Not like a dating site ) and discussing about it without hearing ,,Dead game,bro''.
I am sure you must like an old game, and noone blames you for that.
As to why they play it, is because they like it. See the link here ? 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2016 10:30 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 10:35, 05 Oct 2016.
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Galaad quoted my question out of context, I think we all know why people still play Heroes 3, even if you partially explain it too.
In my original post, which got stranded on the other page, it was merely a rhetorical way to show Ubisoft's "creative" team refuses to learn the lessons of the popularity of the previous games in either lore, design or gameplay. Instead of making unique games people will love and putting their work on them, they outsource to some cheap companies and don't even iron out the most glaring gamebreaking bugs and glitches before release. This is because they wan't to make a quick, fast buck with generic games on an already stablished franchise rather than attempting to get it's essence and build on what made it so... "iconic" 
(even something as simple as knowing that people don't want to fight to endlessly watch the model's slow-motion animations over and over again... Heroes IV already in 2001 had a combat animation speed slider to make them ultra-fast whenever you wanted to)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2016 11:43 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:56, 05 Oct 2016.
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NimoStar said:
Galaad quoted my question out of context, I think we all know why people still play Heroes 3, even if you partially explain it too.
Sorry that was too tempting. 
Yeah we still play Heroes III because it's a great game, but when I tried to explain some things to the MMH7 Team when I got the occasion, I was told that I live in the past, that H6 is great, by people who were still rushing for capitol and using one main and a secondary, and they're doing the game. Jesus f Christ.
Nobody plays Heroes VII aside a few chunk because this game simply sucks, has nothing to do with the Heroes and Might and Magic legacy on any aspect, be it lore, visuals, or gameplay.
NimoStar said:
Perhaps the developers were sniffin' on spider venom...
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=41412&PID=1328400#focus
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 12:21 PM |
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I have to say that I somewhat disagree with this.
No matter name or heritage of the series, as NWC broke with H1-3 tradition when doing H4, they can of course do the game entirely different, even if that means making it real-time, for example, risking to lose the fanbase, aiming to win a new fanbase. That in itself is no problem - things change.
You'd expect them to make a GOOD game, though - that's, after all, what you expect from any and every game than piques your interest. The problem here is QUALITY, CREATIVITY, ORIGINALITY and STYLE, not making a true HoMM game, whatever that means.
Now, IDEALLY, they would try to catch the gist of the spirit of the old games as a foundation for their own ideas to expand and refine things, and both the Ubihole and the Ubilimb partnership screwed up royally and while Ubihole at least TRIED to break new ground, be innovative and original and get something going, for H7 their aim was nothing less (or should I say, nothing MORE) than making a great Frankenstein's monster by sowing together the best parts of the past games.
A successful attempt would mean, that you could check off a lot of boxes from past games, which is what I don't see, with the copious amounts of bugs not helping the cause.
H7 reminds me of this little "gem" here, a straightforward H3 clone in space that is generic and boring - even though the potentially great game principle is shining through.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2016 12:28 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:41, 05 Oct 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
No matter name or heritage of the series, as NWC broke with H1-3 tradition when doing H4
Please, the only thing that really broke the tradition here was the gameplay and you know well enough what was the original NWC plan for H5.
JollyJoker said:
they can of course do the game entirely different, even if that means making it real-time, for example, risking to lose the fanbase, aiming to win a new fanbase. That in itself is no problem - things change.
IMHO this specific example would be very stupid, let's try and turn Starcraft into the Sims because "things change", and see how that goes. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 01:19 PM |
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I'm overstating it to show that HERITAGE doesn't matter per se. You CAN make it a strong point (like Legacy toted "in the tradition of"), but it's not necessary - or, phrased differently, if HoMM 7 had ended being Disciples 4, but the best non-homm-game you ever played in spite of that, well, too bad for tradition, but still the best non-homm-game you ever played.
Phrased yet differently. If gameplay is brilliant people tend to be forgiving about the rest.
Only when gameplay leaves rather more than less to be desired, people will tend to point out other shortcomings, because people also tend to be forgiving about not so brilliant gameplay, if the REST is brilliant.
Which means, if the gameplay blows you away, you will suffer the bugs and the patches and graphic curiosities or story glitches, and if you have a brilliant story and phenomenal graphics plus original ideas, you will have no problem with a verdict of well-known gameplay.
Tradition and heritage is all nice and well, but when push comes to shove, I would always go for the gameplay, not for the tradition and the heritage, meaning, I would rather play a brilliant non-HoMM game than a sucky HoMM-game, just for the sake of playing a HoMM game.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2016 02:36 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Phrased yet differently. If gameplay is brilliant people tend to be forgiving about the rest.
True, case in point TotE, still, things such as recruiting prostitutes-like looking creatures in Dungeon is kinda harsh.
Quote:
Tradition and heritage is all nice and well, but when push comes to shove, I would always go for the gameplay, not for the tradition and the heritage, meaning, I would rather play a brilliant non-HoMM game than a sucky HoMM-game, just for the sake of playing a HoMM game.
To put it bluntly I would rather play a brilliant new Heroes game directly, it is not impossible to have both elements (h7 actually LACKS both), which imo are necessary as complementary for what I'd call a true sequel (if we consider the Ashan trilogy as fanfiction).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 02:57 PM |
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See it this way - it is their right, artistically, to go whatever the direction they want to (as much as Metallica may opt to make a disco record, although it has to be said that they got a lot of flak for the "hardrock" albums Load and Reload) -
but if they do, it better be the best fracking disco record ever!
My point is, if they would succeed in making the best fracking disco record ever, then who the hell would we be to complain?
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted October 05, 2016 03:09 PM |
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Ofcourse that would be alright, because a new album is like a new game so it can be whatever you want but that is different from a sequel. A sequel is a new version of the same product. So when i buy a homm game i expect to get a homm game. Everything else, however great it would be would be false advertising. I mean if i buy something named milk but instead get the best bread of my whole life i would still have every right to be angry as i did not get what i wanted. If you want a different game set in the same world/franchise you have to call it differently. That would be the equvalent to metallica making a disco album and both would be a ok.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 03:38 PM |
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You'll curse me for this, but they DID THAT.
Heroes of Might & Magic V
Might & Magic: Heroes VI
Might & Magic: Heroes VII
Sure, it might have been Might & Magic: Heroes, followed by Might & Magic: Heroes II, but then there is sufficient continuity to justify the numbers, it's just that the quality is missing.
You'll also have to point out what IS (still) HoMM and what is not; for example, King's Bounty is realtime adventure mode plus turnbased combat. Would that combo still be HoMM, if they came up with that?
Also, a franchise may develop - is HoMM 4 a true HoMM game or not?
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted October 05, 2016 03:55 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You'll curse me for this, but they DID THAT.
Heroes of Might & Magic V
Might & Magic: Heroes VI
Might & Magic: Heroes VII
You know I like all 3 games above a lot; however, I don't see different quality in them.
The words have nothing to do with the product quality, maybe only Might & Magic: Heroes have more significant RPG elements in the game (and I'm glad for it as you know). Try to look at it from this point: fans of old, traditional gameplay can still enjoy H3 which is very difficult to surpass, while new fans can enjoy new games which are a bit different (what is according to your opinion boring, stupid etc., is in my opinion exciting & amazing - and probably vice versa).
JollyJoker said:
You'll also have to point out what IS (still) HoMM and what is not; for example, King's Bounty is realtime adventure mode plus turnbased combat. Would that combo still be HoMM, if they came up with that?
No. In my honest opinion, if either adventure map or combat map is not turn-based any longer, it does not fulfil basic expectations about what HoMM (or M&M:H) should be. This is btw. why I disliked KB.
JollyJoker said:
Also, a franchise may develop - is HoMM 4 a true HoMM game or not?
What's the "true HoMM game"? I guess it's something completely different for each person.
The same issue is when it comes to favourite games in series. I have already met people convinced about each of the games in series being the best, maybe except H1 - I have never seen anyone who likes H1 the most.
____________
Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 04:24 PM |
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Antalyan said:
What's the "true HoMM game"?
That's actually my question to Zeki.
As for the rest - I already gave my opinion to that. Short summary: I think, that TODAY success is based on reviews, likes and good ratings (for some time now), and CAMPAIGNS are the thing reviewers take a look at, because campaigns are supposed to showcase what the game can deliver. H7 follows that road. The game has been COMPLETELY and more or less SOLELY about campaigns - and to be fair, if you follow the scripted lanes of the campaigns the original skill sheels make a lot of sense because they force you into different directions, the scripting making sure you don't get any "balance problem".
So if you accept little replayability and see only the campaigns and the One-map campaign-like SP scenarios you get a decent game, marred by a copious amount of bugs, that you can put into the trashcan after having the "60+" hours of fun with it.
If you are satisfied with that, fine.
I'm not, though, because there used to be so much more in the games of this franchise (and is still in games like Age of Wonders 3) - except that it is like development only started to care RECENTLY about the general part of the game, the actual GAMEPLAY, if you want.
Which means, H7 is DEFINITELY not a real HoMM game. It's more like, err, the Ashan version of the Heroes Chronicles, except that THEY were made using a tried and true gameplay while H7 is still looking for one.
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Sumsum
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2016 04:31 PM |
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Ok, with consoles like xbox 360 and ps3 appear, new games on the PC were meant to be playable on the consoles too. With the NEWEST gen (XBOX One and PS4) games that have realistic graphics are more attractive, stealing fans from games like Heroes. Although stealing is not a word, we all have the capability of thinking no matter what. So to gain back fans, and to gain fans that also like realistic graphics, and changing playing styles. For example, games like GTA were meant to show the stories of gangsters, thugs.etc , now it's all about making it realistic, and allowing you to play from different perspectives (E.G GTA V) to add to the tons of realistic graphics.
Ubisoft just didn't know if people would like the quality or the quantity, so they mixed them both. Still, not equal on both sides, the quality is not that of Heroes III, but the way it got now is kind of fun for people like nerds who like chess and long wait times, thinking, overall.
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Zeki
Supreme Hero
sup
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posted October 05, 2016 06:06 PM |
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Edited by Zeki at 18:31, 05 Oct 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
You'll curse me for this, but they DID THAT.
Heroes of Might & Magic V
Might & Magic: Heroes VI
Might & Magic: Heroes VII
Sure, it might have been Might & Magic: Heroes, followed by Might & Magic: Heroes II, but then there is sufficient continuity to justify the numbers, it's just that the quality is missing.
You'll also have to point out what IS (still) HoMM and what is not; for example, King's Bounty is realtime adventure mode plus turnbased combat. Would that combo still be HoMM, if they came up with that?
Also, a franchise may develop - is HoMM 4 a true HoMM game or not?
yeah you are right, they did change the name.
And yes, defining what actually is the soul of a game can be hard (like with heroes, many poeple like it for very different reasons). That is why you need an able Team when developing a game with a clear idea and direction in their heads. That is also why it is quite hard to continue a game series with a completely different set of people than the original team. Sadly there was no one willing to contact old staff neither has there been new and talented enough staff since Ubi took over. (It seems more like a miracle that h5 turned out good at the very end than anything else)
EDIT
Btw my personal definition of what a heroes game is would be something like this:
In a broader sense i would say there are two important sides of a Heroes game:
1. Kinda like b0rsuk described it i see heroes as a sandbox for many different stories and adventures with lots of different mystical creatures. (this is where imho all of ubi's heroes games failed, though h5 not so much as the later two games)
2. A strategy game with deep mechanisms and intriguing balance( aka not just making every creature basically the same, yes im looking at you h7), basically what the multiplayer crowd likes. (this is where the mm:h games failed miserably)
Now about more specific gameplay elements:
- turnbased gameplay (both adventure map and combat, i feel that heroes should let you relax, take a break from the everyday action and chaos.)
- a seperated advendure map and combat map
- evolving heroes and towns
- different factions with many interesting and diverse creatures
I hope i didn't forget something..
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
