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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 09:28 PM |
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It's fairly simple:
Disciples 2 is a brilliant game.
It's always different to start something new from that point.
HoMM 3 was something special. HoMM 4 DID the right thing doing something different - and succeeded to create a new game, not HoMM, but definitely worth playing. (Disciples 3 isn't, imo, because it lacks character - it's just lackluster.)
AoW 3 did manage to create a new game that definitely IS AoW. Although it doesn't contain everything AoW 2 contained - not by a mile.
HoMM 5 was, in the end, a good game. HoMM 6 is a good game as well. The trouble here is HISTORY: we do not need a 2015 HoMM 3 - we have HoMM 3, it's still played. And we do not need "good" games, because in the end they don't count as the Xth game of a series.
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted October 18, 2014 09:37 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 21:37, 18 Oct 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
+1
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 18, 2014 09:39 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:41, 18 Oct 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
Otherwise, a game that is finally not-disappointing to people since H3  There are still lots of people who did not like H5 and even more that disliked H4 and H6. For me, there are only so many times you can replay H3 without getting tired. And I have played it a LOT!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Arugaf
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 09:44 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
HoMM 3 was something special. HoMM 4 DID the right thing doing something different - and succeeded to create a new game, not HoMM, but definitely worth playing.
HoMM 5 was, in the end, a good game. HoMM 6 is a good game as well. The trouble here is HISTORY: we do not need a 2015 HoMM 3 - we have HoMM 3, it's still played. And we do not need "good" games, because in the end they don't count as the Xth game of a series.
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
Oh yeah. It's very good post. We really don't need another H3 (4/5/6 etc).
P.S. I think one of the most important reasons for which H4 is not that popular as H3 or H5 it cause H4 is more "Might & Magic" (i mean rpg series) than other Heroes. I hope I clearly conveyed my idea.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted October 18, 2014 10:25 PM |
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Main thing missing from new Heroes is functional RMG. A good one. One where you can adjust few settings (or many if you want really particular map style) and create perfectly fresh playable map. Replayability (I know its not a word  ) is at the core of H3 success.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 18, 2014 10:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
Way to raise the stakes there, buddy.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 18, 2014 10:43 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What we need is a game you will play on its own, without comparing it with HoMM 3, 4, 5 or 6. A game that is HoMM, but also unlike 3, 4, 5 or 6.
No, I just completely disagree. What we need is a game that playes like Heroes 3 (and 5). Heroes 4 and 6 were exactly examples of what happens when they try to make a game that plays differently - we might disagree on whether Heroes 4 and 6 were good games, but that's not really the point, even if they do make a good game, even a great game, it will be a failure as a continuation of the heroes series if it doesn't play like a classic heroes game (which means by default like H3).
I simply don't buy the premise that just because you had a great game in the series, you need to completely turn things over to to make a succesful continuation, I've pointed to the Civilization series before and I will do it once again as an example of a game series that have managed to keep the exact same core game mechanics and still has managed to go progressively better with each new installment of the game.
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What will happen now?
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 10:59 PM |
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I mostly agree with what JJ has said. One of the things I disagree with is Heroes 4 being a good game.
Heroes 4 as he said, is an okaish game that shouldn't belong to the Heroes franchise but I don't have problem with that at all. Even if it is much different from Heroes, that doesn't stop me from enjoying in it, but animations and graphics are just horrible...
Like 15 years later, I still love H2 and since then I keep playing H3 and H5, but I just can't stand those animations and overall design of H4, and that doesn't have anything to do with gameplay. Yesterday I've watched some H4 gameplay videos with friends and damn it was painful.
Other thing I don't really follow is that we need new game that isn't H6/5/4/3. I mean, I don't really disagree with it, sure completely new game "could" work, but it doesn't have to be completely new. I think that we can still have a game that combines really good elements from previous games and get that "new, yet old" feeling.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted October 18, 2014 11:39 PM |
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Build upon, don't build anew.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 18, 2014 11:48 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Build upon, don't build anew.
This. This and This.
And This.
And last but not least, This.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 18, 2014 11:51 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Build upon, don't build anew.
Yes.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 19, 2014 12:06 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Build upon, don't build anew.
Pretty much this.
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 03:55 AM |
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JeremiahEmo said:
Galaad said:
NACHOOOO said:
If any of you have played Age of Wonders 3
Yea, thing is, AOW3 isn't HOMM.
I haven't played AOW3 yet but AOW2 was pretty bad. Please don't compare HoMM to AOW. It's an insult to HoMM.
If we are to talk about about flanking ,then AoW3 is the obvious point of comparison since they introduced that mechanism successfully there.It is at least relevant.
But ofc we could also stay ignorant idiots and be snippy about it
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 07:29 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Build upon, don't build anew.
That's nonsense, because they are not in contrast with each other or mutually exclusive. You always build upon and you always build anew. You will always keep things, you SHOULD always add things and you will always change things.
The question is WHAT and HOW, though.
The reason is equally simple: you can't simply add something and leave the rest unchanged: in that case you could just made an endless number of expansion and updates. If you take HoMM 3 and consider everything done with WoG as a series of expansions, what would be needed now, was the transition to modern graphics; you'd have to make a fully compatible HD update of everything - but after that it would still be HoMM 3.
HoMM 3 itself is different from HoMM 2 in very significant ways.
HoMM 4's difference is simply based on the fact, that Heroes were supposed to be able to fight on the BF. To make that possible, a vast part of the game had to be "built anew".
It is another question whether the result as a whole was worth the effort or not - but clearly HoMM 4 is a game that is still played as well BECAUSE it plays so different. The trouble with HoMM 6 is, it's NOT playing different, but lackluster and somewhat boring which is something else completely.
Imo, HoMM - as WoG shows - is a game that CAN have a very long life cycle; in theory it's certainly possible to develop a HoMM game you can produce a serious amount of additional content for - which is probably what everyone wants. Start the thing vanilla, with 6 factions, then continue to 9, then continue to more; think LARGER!
However, in order to do that the game must be nothing short of brilliant. Which would seem to be the main problem.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 19, 2014 08:32 AM |
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Sorry JJ not sure if I agree with your post, HOMM should remain HOMM and new entries into the series should build upon the last one with improved elements.
On the spell system:
There actually are 5 levels of spells: n, 1, 2, 3 and 4.
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Danny
Famous Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 08:34 AM |
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Devs read through this last page and wonder how they could please everyone...
Personally I love that H4 and H6 introduced new stuff while still felt Heroes, that's why I'm not a fan of H5 since it was a retread. But opinions will always be just opinions...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 19, 2014 09:40 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
However, in order to do that the game must be nothing short of brilliant. Which would seem to be the main problem.
Yes but it shouldn't be a problem. You have H2-H3+WoG-H4-H5 to take the inspiration from. A mix of all these would still make a new, built from upon.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 19, 2014 10:26 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
However, in order to do that the game must be nothing short of brilliant. Which would seem to be the main problem.
That I'm willing to agree with.
It seems somehow that nowadays, pulling off a good game is hard enough. Doing a game that has a legacy of a brilliant game sets expectations to the redonkulous from the get-go. Living up to that can be a very hard thing indeed.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 19, 2014 11:38 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
You always build upon and you always build anew. You will always keep things, you SHOULD always add things and you will always change things.
The question is WHAT and HOW, though.
The reason is equally simple: you can't simply add something and leave the rest unchanged: in that case you could just made an endless number of expansion and updates. (...) HoMM 3 itself is different from HoMM 2 in very significant ways.
I agree with what you say but not the conclusions you reach. I'm not saying that they shouldn't change things between iterations, but for me the most important thing is that they should have a game that plays like its predecessors. H6 might have been a good game, I can't really say, but one thing I do know is that it is greatly disliked by most fans of the older games in the series. The reason for that is also pretty clearcut, namely (in order of pririty) changes done to skill system (non-random skills), magic system (too many schools with two few spells) and creature system (fewer tiers with too little power separation). I shall try to refrain from talking badly about the developers, but looking at what elements of H6 they have chosen to keep, I can't help but have some thoughts ...
Anyway, returning to your post, comparing H2 to H3, ironically I would say complete opposite of what you say, H3 is imo. not very different from H2 in significant ways, in fact I don't think there's a single game element present in H2 that's not also in H3, although I might have forgotten something. What H3 did was it refined everything that was in H2: Better skill system, better magic system, better graphics (although some will contest that), better combat system. Also adding some more features: New factions added to existing, dual hero classes, combination artifacts, etc.
H5 in many ways compared similarly to H3: Better skill system, better magic system (imo.), better graphics (well, at least more contemporary), possibly improved combat system (although I know not everybody liked H5 initiative system). Again H5 tried also to add some new features, like more different gameplay in each faction (racial skill, individual skill wheels), altenate upgrades.
As I see it, there was absolutely no problem in continuing along this line. H5 was far from perfect, there's a lot of things that one could improve: We needed dual hero classes in each faction. Initiative system needed balancing. Ultimate skill concept needed a complete overhaul and balancing. Magic system needed to be expanded with more spells. Yet instead they have this obsession with "leaving their own mark on the series": Changing things just for the sake of changing, not because they needed actual change. I can accept the reduction of rare resources in H6 as an experiment, and I appreciate that they go back to four again now in H7, but why need to change the names? But that's just flavor. Non-random skill system, we saw in H6 it didn't work, yet they stick to it in H7, and that has actual major impact on gameplay. Changed creature tier system because ... yeah, why exactly? Seven magic schools because ... that's how it must be in Ashan? Or just for the sake of making something new? I'm sorry, but I don't buy the idea that this is how you make a better game.
____________
What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 19, 2014 11:58 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:00, 19 Oct 2014.
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Well I agree with you alcibiades for the most part. Just a note, I consider that 3 creature tiers is better than 7 because of the reduced gap in power which provides more balance. And I like the 7 elemental magic schools on preference, even if that might be an issue for balancing.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
