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hycoo7
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2014 12:01 AM |
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Heroes is not the same without random skills of some sort, but i think it can be improved from earlier versions. Imo there should not be any ''ultimate skill'' you have to plan for throughout the game. Each skill should be balanced and be the main way to alter your play style. If you want a more passive build up game, if you want to rush taking towns, hunt for artifacts or gather neutral troops etc. Of course you might not get exactly what you need, but then you have to alter your playstyle accordingly.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 12:33 AM |
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Yep i agree with hycoo7. While i like random skills, i think they shouldn't be used in skill-wheel scenario like in h5. It just makes it a hastle - you have to go online to check how to get "secret" skills, and hope you get offered the right ones etc. And besides, once you get your build down, you pretty much always select what you want ahead of time - so no adjusting strategy exists ... you can only get screwed ower, or not.
In h3 system however, random skills worked much better since there was no skill-wheel.
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted November 26, 2014 01:08 AM |
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Non-random skillwheel is the worst idea of building a skill system. Give us the randomness back !!! 
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 01:14 AM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 01:16, 26 Nov 2014.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Yep i agree with hycoo7. While i like random skills, i think they shouldn't be used in skill-wheel scenario like in h5. It just makes it a hastle - you have to go online to check how to get "secret" skills, and hope you get offered the right ones etc. And besides, once you get your build down, you pretty much always select what you want ahead of time - so no adjusting strategy exists ... you can only get screwed ower, or not.
In h3 system however, random skills worked much better since there was no skill-wheel.
Or you know, they could just show you the skill wheel in the game because we are in 2014...
"Random skill worked much better since there was no skill-wheel" is not a good argument. Heroes 3 skill system is pretty horrible to begin with, you could get a lot of useless skills at the same time and you didn't even have much of a choice when you could choose between two skills per level(just one continent and getting navigation or pathfinding as my skills for that level, I really wonder what will I choose)...
For me, it didn't even felt like building up my hero, it felt like picking things that were better out of two offered.
On the other hand, Heroes 5 skill wheel was one of the best skill systems I've encountered. It felt like Heroes 3 skill system upgraded to a whole new level where you can actually experiment with some stuff and make different skill build every game, and by that I mean a skill build that mattered! Every skill/perk that you have picked could make a huge difference through out the whole game. All that said, this system also had its flaws, like ultimate skills being almost impossible to get(I don't think that there was a single time I managed to get one of those, and later I didn't even try) and some skills being obviously less useful than others or just useless. But it still didn't feel nearly as narrow as Heroes 3, and I could play 5 times in a row with the same faction, same hero, and all 5 times the game and the hero buildup would have been completely different.
If I hope for something, it is to see the skill system that is very similar to Heroes 5 skill wheel, but upgraded with some stuff. There are a tons of games out there and each of those have quite different skill system, I am pretty sure that they could take some features or even invent some of them and make a good skill system, just please don't give us that same crap we got in H6. It was just horrible.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 26, 2014 07:59 AM |
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A thought crossed my mind. Having a whole 7 magic schools, perhaps it would be better to have them taught for a fee in the mage guilds instead? No chance to get screwed over by skill chances or the guild and a lot more easier to implement a random skill system. In my mind, this is one aspect of MMX that would be worth implementing, given the circumstances. That would leave more room for other magic skills like sorcery, enlightenment and arcane discipline(a more refined take of the classic magic resistance, more availabe to magic classes).
Because when you throw 7 magic skills in a random system all hell breaks loose. Even if you narrow it down to 5-6, it's still a lot.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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hycoo7
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 26, 2014 08:38 AM |
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The reason why skills felt less varied/creative in h3 was more about the skills than the system imo. But there are so many ways to implement a fun and good skill system it shouldnt really be a problem imo. But if anything a remake of h6 skill system cant happen if the devs understand their heroes...
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 08:43 AM |
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Edited by TD at 08:58, 26 Nov 2014.
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I will be frank about the ultimate skills in h5, you can actually make better builds without them. I just personally like the flavor they add. For example with academy you can create pretty insane combos with morale, attack + contribution + cold steel, luck + warlock's luck, destruction + cold death and sorcery. Add to that the trinkets from artificier with boost to morale + whatever else you need and buy few artis with morale boost and you can roughly do twice the damage on normal strikes(more actually), with luck closer to 5x the original damage(as in no artis/skills) and you got chance for double spell damage with great boosts.(And yes, you can make lots of different builds that actually will be better than when getting the ultimate skill other than that one)
So I hope you see the ultimate skills aren't really all that overpowered as long as you know how to build the hero in general. In my mind all factions had downside to the ultimate skill in the path as it always contained 1-2 skills I really didn't want to take(dungeon being the exception)and often even the required abilities weren't exactly the best in general. It was the trade-off you had to pay for the ultimate power. I just loved the idea of having skill that manifested the ultimate representation of the faction or what it strives for.
And as I said before in my long rant, I'm not completely heartless for those who want non-random. You could place skill-mentor even in castle if need be and/or have universities/schools/witch-huts that taught you skills for price(resources, battles or quests). What I would need regardless is that the skill system is built around the random skills, if they/you want to add full-control skill-system as optional to that it's fine with. I just don't want the kind of bland skills and boosts h6 offered which will most likely come back if the system is originally built around non-random system.
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted November 26, 2014 09:14 AM |
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@Elvin
 +1
@TD
+1
Yeah I find both suggestions good. Plus on positive side the more options you get the more varied games you can have and more people are likely to get into it.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 26, 2014 09:20 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 09:22, 26 Nov 2014.
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Elvin said:
A thought crossed my mind. Having a whole 7 magic schools, perhaps it would be better to have them taught for a fee in the mage guilds instead?
How about making one of Academy's special buildings a "Spell Library" or an "Arcane Market"? Each week (or each month), new spells are being offered at random. I am not sure if Academy has any schools it cannot teach, but it should offer a random assortment of spells that can be learned - besides the ones already offered in Mage Guilds. Let's say 5 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, 1 level 3 spell, all visible to the player before you purchase them. You need to pay for each spell, for each Hero, unlike the Mage Guild.
Perhaps also make this a Neutral Adventure map building (offering any type of spell), so everyone can have its benefit, not just Academy players.
Map makers should have control over which spells are being offered, independently of the spells available through Mage Guilds and Shrines (are those back ingame?).
Maybe have it make a one-time-offer each month of a level 4 spell, which is not revealed to the player until he or she has bought it. After buying it, the spell is no longer available to him or her; this spell is random for each player, not the same for all players (except through sheer odds), so allies cannot inform eachother of what the weeks/months special is.
As for random skills and Ultimates, something I've said before: why not make multiple Ultimates? Make Ultimates only depend on the main skills, not on the perks, to allow flexibility. Different combinations of skills yield different Ultimates; this should focus on the main skills for a faction at its core (like Light Magic and Leadership are core skills for the Haven faction) and depending on the other chosen skills, one of several Ultimates becomes available. As such, not all combinations yield an Ultimate and a combination that may yield an Ultimate for one faction may yield nothing for another. The most clear distinction could be a difference between a Magic-oriented Ultimate and a Might-oriented Ultimate, but others may exist too.
That way, getting offered a "wrong" skill choice which doesn't lead to an Ultimate skill is already reduced to practically zero. Ultimates also shouldn't be overly dominant, but provide something extra, based on the synergy of the selected skills. That way, even going for a path that doesn't yield an Ultimate skill isn't punishing the player too hard.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted November 26, 2014 09:31 AM |
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Elvin said:
A thought crossed my mind. Having a whole 7 magic schools, perhaps it would be better to have them taught for a fee in the mage guilds instead? No chance to get screwed over by skill chances or the guild and a lot more easier to implement a random skill system. In my mind, this is one aspect of MMX that would be worth implementing, given the circumstances. That would leave more room for other magic skills like sorcery, enlightenment and arcane discipline(a more refined take of the classic magic resistance, more availabe to magic classes).
Because when you throw 7 magic skills in a random system all hell breaks loose. Even if you narrow it down to 5-6, it's still a lot.
Too easy to get the magic skill early on. However if a hero had the option to face a challenge battle(with real armies) in the castle/mage guild/appropriate map object it should get the option to get a specific basic spellschool offered on the next levelup. It would be possible to get the early spellschool you so needed but only upon a cost of losses to your armies. Each castle should get 3 spellschools to offer and perhaps another 2 we get to unlock with extra buildings like in H4.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 09:54 AM |
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RMZ1989 said:
Or you know, they could just show you the skill wheel in the game because we are in 2014...
somehow i doubt they would, since every game from H3 onwards has had worse UI than the last ... but that's another topic
RMZ1989 said:
On the other hand, Heroes 5 skill wheel was one of the best skill systems I've encountered. It felt like Heroes 3 skill system upgraded to a whole new level where you can actually experiment with some stuff and make different skill build every game, and by that I mean a skill build that mattered! Every skill/perk that you have picked could make a huge difference through out the whole game. All that said, this system also had its flaws, like ultimate skills being almost impossible to get(I don't think that there was a single time I managed to get one of those, and later I didn't even try) and some skills being obviously less useful than others or just useless. But it still didn't feel nearly as narrow as Heroes 3, and I could play 5 times in a row with the same faction, same hero, and all 5 times the game and the hero buildup would have been completely different.
make no mistake i like H5 and skill system that it had - but it was the requierments that ruined it for me - you said it yourself that "ultimate skills were almost impossible to get". The whole thing dosen't work if you have randomness in it, because if you want skill "X", that require skills "A" and "B" (which were secret no less) you have to plan your "build" (going online, seeing requierments, etc.) And with random system this means either getting them and doing your build, or getting screwed over and not getting them - that's all there is to it.
I agree that skills in H5 felt good and who's to say they can't be if you take them off this "wheel". Whitout special requierments, and "ultimates" (which as TD said were not that powerfull to begin with), this could work.
Edit: please delete my previous empty post - it is not there on purpose
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 10:28 AM |
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@zombie I didn't say exactly that ultimate skills weren't all that powerful, more like that you can create better "builds". For inferno for example the ultimate skill combined with different boosts to gating could create awesome combos to boost the gating and the best combination would use the ultimate skill with them IMO. The best part of the system was that it didn't line you up to certain build because you could create so many good and viable builds to suit different needs.
Also regarding getting the ultimate skills, I can get them pretty much every game if you follow the few guidelines I wrote down in my longer first post regarding this topic. In original h5 the skills were harder to get for some bugs and the fact that you had to look the requirements up from internet like you said. Nowadays there is external skillwheel chart with the tribes of the east(made by fans) that you can check skills from and use for planning(it's interactive). The skill requirements were also changed compared to vanilla version.
As for changes I think having 2-3 ultimate skills would be ok(let's say might, magic and neutral for example), but that would require a lot of work though. I'd go with more simple solution of having single ultimate skill, but you would need 3/5 "routes" completed for the ultimate skill to unlock. This would give you some flexibility and allow you to pick skills suiting better your style rather than being locked to specific skills.
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 10:38 AM |
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Elvin said:
A thought crossed my mind. Having a whole 7 magic schools, perhaps it would be better to have them taught for a fee in the mage guilds instead? No chance to get screwed over by skill chances or the guild and a lot more easier to implement a random skill system. In my mind, this is one aspect of MMX that would be worth implementing, given the circumstances. That would leave more room for other magic skills like sorcery, enlightenment and arcane discipline(a more refined take of the classic magic resistance, more availabe to magic classes).
Because when you throw 7 magic skills in a random system all hell breaks loose. Even if you narrow it down to 5-6, it's still a lot.
Not a bad idea, at all. If they do not provide an 1/5, 1/6 or 1/7 choice each time (which I hardly see us getting, in the end...) your proposition seems the best way to solve the randomness problem.
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 11:00 AM |
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Yeah, makes so much sense that I have to spend gold to get the skills that define my class as a magic hero. Would also mean a different mechanism: I'm in some wilderness, 2000 Lightyears from home, I level my wannabe mage up - and now what? Buy the skill from blue heavens? Certainly not. So saving the level-up point until I come home and visit the local academy for a quick workshop in X Magic?
Conversely, stuff like Tactics and War Machines come of course naturally to every wannabe Barbarian...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 26, 2014 11:21 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Yeah, makes so much sense that I have to spend gold to get the skills that define my class as a magic hero. Would also mean a different mechanism: I'm in some wilderness, 2000 Lightyears from home, I level my wannabe mage up - and now what? Buy the skill from blue heavens? Certainly not. So saving the level-up point until I come home and visit the local academy for a quick workshop in X Magic?
Conversely, stuff like Tactics and War Machines come of course naturally to every wannabe Barbarian...
I'm not sure to whom you're responding? But if you're responding to my suggestion, you've misunderstood. All I wrote was to have the special building offer a random assortment of spells for purchase to learn it. Mage Guilds should still teach them for free as they always have and skills acquisition should remain te same too.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 11:31 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
make no mistake i like H5 and skill system that it had - but it was the requierments that ruined it for me - you said it yourself that "ultimate skills were almost impossible to get". The whole thing dosen't work if you have randomness in it, because if you want skill "X", that require skills "A" and "B" (which were secret no less) you have to plan your "build" (going online, seeing requierments, etc.) And with random system this means either getting them and doing your build, or getting screwed over and not getting them - that's all there is to it.
I agree that skills in H5 felt good and who's to say they can't be if you take them off this "wheel". Whitout special requierments, and "ultimates" (which as TD said were not that powerfull to begin with), this could work.
But that is the whole point, you are not going to use pre-made builds, you are going to improvise depending on the game and what skills you get. I am not planning to go for certain skills and perks in my game(except if I am 100% sure that I will get them), and there is always an alternative to those skills that you want. Yes, it is random, but Heroes are defined by randomness. I've seen so many different builds work that in the end it all comes down to how you play and if you have good strategy, you can win with what is given.
I think that it is a wrong approach to look at skill wheel system as some system where you are openly making your builds and then saying how it doesn't work because of randomness. Look at it from an different angle, like an Heroes 3 skill system that is somewhat controllable and less random when you already pick certain skills.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 11:40 AM |
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Edited by TD at 11:51, 26 Nov 2014.
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Elvin said:
A thought crossed my mind. Having a whole 7 magic schools, perhaps it would be better to have them taught for a fee in the mage guilds instead? No chance to get screwed over by skill chances or the guild and a lot more easier to implement a random skill system. In my mind, this is one aspect of MMX that would be worth implementing, given the circumstances. That would leave more room for other magic skills like sorcery, enlightenment and arcane discipline(a more refined take of the classic magic resistance, more availabe to magic classes).
Because when you throw 7 magic skills in a random system all hell breaks loose. Even if you narrow it down to 5-6, it's still a lot.
I wouldn't put the magic school solely to magic guild. I think it would be ok to buy a skill from there as in "basic light magic" for example, but after that you would need to level it up like before. It should also be fairly expensive to buy skill (5k gold and 2 of each rare for example) as it's basically level-up you buy in town so it should cost you. You should also have chance like before to get the skill on level-up.
In h5 this problem was solved using the probabilities. Here magic heroes would get highest chance to gain their factions magic, higher/medium chance for some 3 magic-schools and low chance for 2 magic schools and one school excluded completely. Also skills like sorcery and enlightnment would be more probable for magic heroes.
As for the spell-market idea(market of mystique?), I think it's a nice idea. You could have low-level spells(1-2) changing there every 2 weeks, medium level spells(3-4) every 3 weeks and random level 5 spells once a month that you don't know till you buy it for example. I would be as rude to place an entry fee for entering the market even if you don't buy anything(if not even small upkeep cost for having it in your town) giving the market a small drawback. You could send it away, but it would be gone for 2 months as cooldown(the merchant is angry for being sent away!). So in my idea it would be more like inviting an event to the town in the form of caravaner setting up the market for a price in your town. Maybe setting up some other things in more event like things such as artifact shop could be available for other factions too for paying price for it(instead of it being limited to few factions) Each map would have limited amount of these events that could be ordered and only 1/town at a time. It could also take few days for these "events" to start working in the town. Could also require some buildings to be built or town level x to invite some events. Any thoughts on the suggestion?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 26, 2014 12:22 PM |
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The only question about skill system is not whether it should random or not, but how much random.
In H5, each faction had different probabilities of obtaining each skill (eg. academy 2% attack, whereas Orcs 15% attack).
This is where the focus should be.
I understand Elvin's comment about 7 magic schools being too much, but limit each faction to a max of 4 or so, problem solved.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 01:20 PM |
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No problem not solved.
The only reason we have 7 schools at all is the lore - if it wasn't for the lore, we could simply concoct something.
So if the only reason for having 7 schools is the lore, then banning 3 from all towns would have to be based somehow on the lore as well, otherwise why bother with 7 in the first place? There is no such lore, though.
Worse - how would you justify this for a town like Academy at all? Which would mean, that access to all schools and spells and magic gadgets would have to be an ASSET, but in fact it would be a LIABILITY due to the "dispersion" of having spells from a ton of schools.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2014 01:35 PM |
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regarding spell market - i personaly like the idea. It's balanced between random and non-random spells. The best scenario i think for this to work is also the simplest - have magic guild work similar than artifact merchant. each 2 weaks spells rotate, and you get to see them, and buy for your hero, if he has apropriate skill/level/requierment, the ones you like.
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