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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted November 27, 2014 10:29 AM |
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Tanis seems kinda boring honestly. kinda.. standard and under-developed? i dunno, i'll have to wait and see 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 11:00 AM |
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Maurice is right. Spells are situational, that's why if you have random spells you can get screwed over. If all spells were generaly usefull (like haste), then random spells would be ok, coz you allways get something. But to be hornest, that would be kinda boring.
skills on the other hand are way more general. so random skills would work better, but you can't have a lot of realy situaltional skills then.
(navigation for eg., is better the way it was in H6, where it was navigation + pathfinding in one skill. However this logic holds only if skills are random, wihch in H6 were not - so it was borring and killed replayability) - and Logistics should be totaly removed if you don't have random skills.
This is why imo it would be best to have random skills, but have some controll over spells atleast. One good idea would be (idk who mentioned it, but someone did), that when you bild magic guild, you select like 2 schools (out of 7), and all spells you get are from those schools. You can even select one to be primary, so that at tier 3 and 5 you always have spells from that school.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 27, 2014 11:05 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
Tanis seems kinda boring honestly. kinda.. standard and under-developed? i dunno, i'll have to wait and see
Under-developed? More like over-developed.
She's perfect and flawless and omnipresent.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted November 27, 2014 11:07 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 11:12, 27 Nov 2014.
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Maurice said:
No, it's not, but spells are usually somewhat situational. Also, the spell you get in place of a spell you wanted to get may not fall into the Magic School specialisation that you've chosen.
For instance, let's take Heroes3 for example. Let's say your Hero is specialised in Earth Magic and Water Magic. You build up to level 3 Mage Guild and get the following spells:
- Earthquake
- Air Shield
- Land Mine
Each of those is useful, but only one of those is in line with your specialisations (Earthquake) and that one isn't too splendid. I am very sure you'd rather have had:
- Frost Ring
- Anti-Magic
- Teleport
With those spells, you might teleport one of your units within enemy lines, protect it from spells and cast Frost Ring around it to harm any possible attackers.
Good point, getting such a highly specialized spell is always aggravating. Heroes 4 in my opinion was best at handing out spells you were most likely to use from the mages guild though that mostly is do to how the magic skills was linked to factions.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 27, 2014 11:08 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:19, 27 Nov 2014.
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RMZ1989 said:
Heroes 3 skill system is pretty horrible to begin with, you could get a lot of useless skills at the same time and you didn't even have much of a choice when you could choose between two skills per level(just one continent and getting navigation or pathfinding as my skills for that level, I really wonder what will I choose)...
Aside from the fact that Navigation popping up on non-water map was a bug, I disagree with this statement. Most of the times, out of the 8 skills, you get maybe 2 "unwanted" skills. It was never the reason that made me loose a game though 
Maurice said:
No, it's not, but spells are usually somewhat situational. Also, the spell you get in place of a spell you wanted to get may not fall into the Magic School specialisation that you've chosen.For instance, let's take Heroes3 for example[...]
In homm3 it really wasn't a problem, you always had at least one good spell per level, and there were shrines all over the maps, and there is also a skill, eerrrm, Eagle eye ? 
I liked it not to have desired spells at home, where is the challenge if the best ones aren't in enemy towns ?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 27, 2014 11:30 AM |
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Well, H2-H3 were built on this random pattern, and the fact that you don't get everything as you want encourage exploration, stealing spells during fights, effective usage of secondary heroes and so on. I would certainly not enjoy a game where I am sure to get the spells and skills I need, because this would be the case for my opponent too, hence no fun in beating him if same build. Beside, as Galaad says, if you know the game settings, you rarely end by having more than one unwanted skill. Those who get more than two useless skills are amateurs.
The big problem was that only a few classes could level right because the magic system was too weak compared to might. So you had to choose only same and same classes again.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 27, 2014 11:34 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:38, 27 Nov 2014.
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Overwhelmingly crappy skills are the biggest flaw of H3. Two crappy skills (or even one) is not a drop in the ocean when you have a total of eight. It annoys me to get crappy skills even if I'm sure to win the game.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 27, 2014 11:38 AM |
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It looks like everyone assumes that getting the perfect hero should be granted by game mechanics. I think it is part of the challenge and should be very hard to get the perfect hero.
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Era II mods and utilities
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 27, 2014 11:41 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:44, 27 Nov 2014.
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It should be hard and I always like a little randomness but the crappy skills shoudnt have been that crappy and something like the Market of Time shoud have been included in the original game.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 27, 2014 11:41 AM |
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artu said:
Overwhelmingly crappy skills are the biggest flaw of H3.
And MMH6 is not random and yet have way more "crappy" skills than homm3 ever had.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 27, 2014 11:43 AM |
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Never played 6, so, I wouldnt know.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 27, 2014 11:46 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:47, 27 Nov 2014.
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That is why I'm telling you. MMH7 can fail because of influences from previous iteration and I would like to avoid that.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 11:50 AM |
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@Salamandre: Sure, in long single player scenarios with multiple oponents, you are right. But in short 1 on 1 multiplayer settings, situation becomes diferent, as by the time you steal spells from your oponent's hero and castle ... you have won the game. So what if you got blind from your eagle eye in the last battle during siege of his (only) castle?
also for skills - in H5 (as much as i like the game...) it was not so much about getting usefull skills, but more of getting them soon. You got your logistics? good for you, it's month 2 and enemy main army will be at your last castle in a day ... hope it helps ... And triple flaming balista? Classic! if you got it reasonably early in game, otherwise it was not so good.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 27, 2014 11:51 AM |
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Which only shows how hard is to invent the perfect system where randomness and probabilities balance each other. I heard people ragging vs h3 skills for 15 years yet no one was capable to come with a better system. The only solution is the give access to game resources, then let experienced players write their own mods until a consensus is found.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 27, 2014 12:27 PM |
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Galaad said:
In homm3 it really wasn't a problem, you always had at least one good spell per level, and there were shrines all over the maps, and there is also a skill, eerrrm, Eagle eye ?
I liked it not to have desired spells at home, where is the challenge if the best ones aren't in enemy towns ?
I am not saying that you should be able to acquire all spells while sitting at home. You have the Mage Guild, which has a small subset of the total amount of ingame spells. Those spells are set in stone when the map is initialised. That's never going to change during the playthrough, so once the map is initialised, the toolbox for Magic Heroes is defined. The Arcane Market, as suggested, simply grants a means to expand the toolbox beyond what is statically defined at the initialisation of the map. With a refresh timer of a month and a relatively small selection (should be smaller than the Mage Guild, in my opinion), you won't have all spells within a few weeks from game start either.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 01:56 PM |
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well i think no system will ever be perfect for everyone. End of the day random or not - we will have to cope with it, as long as it's not as boring as in H6, and im sure Ubi knows that, that's why they promised us spellbook and mage guild in first place.
What im trully interasted in is what spells are gonna be like? if spells are as bland as in H6 then no system's gonna save it. I personaly like spells that can do multiple things or are flashy, and not just "deal X dmg". Spells like Clone, or Hypnotize ... I also like idea of Remove object making a comeback - specialy with cover and flanking mechanics (altho i don't think I'll see it). Sacrafice is also another great one i hope to see ... or Arcane Crystal - that one was always fun to use.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 05:22 PM |
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Protolisk said:
GenyaArikado said:
She doesnt look ugly. Just older
Exactly. She's not ugly, she's "fair" at worst.
However, she does look like she is lacking in the hair department. The artwork shows long flowing locks, but her 3D art has an extremely small length and very little volume. It looks like an odd juxtaposition.
Otherwise, I like it. I was hoping for the full Academy 3D model update, but this was fine too.
idk she has more hair here
i think she is supposed to have a thight ponytail. But since you probably wont see it in the cgi they either didnt bother making it or the model isnt complete while the in-game model will have it. Either way i dont mind. Hair is a snow to make.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 05:49 PM |
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Randomness needs to be balanced with concrete elements. We can't have every little thing random, because if you do, you end up with situations like "the randomly generated map has trapped your opponent in the upper-right corner of the map with no way out.... and you with no way in, since your magic guild doesn't know Teleport."
Seriously, that happened to me one time.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 27, 2014 05:54 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:56, 27 Nov 2014.
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@Kimarous : we are mainly discussing about the random skills. RMG is another story Though another must for replayability, I almost only play random maps in H3 now.
Is a feature that could come in expansion.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 27, 2014 05:55 PM |
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Kimarous said:
Randomness needs to be balanced with concrete elements. We can't have every little thing random, because if you do, you end up with situations like "the randomly generated map has trapped your opponent in the upper-right corner of the map with no way out.... and you with no way in, since your magic guild doesn't know Teleport."
Seriously, that happened to me one time.
Well, that just means that their implementation of RMG wasn't good.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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