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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 03:50 AM |
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Well, when I first saw the leaked images long ago, already naming it pyramid and great pyramid or something in those lines I though "ok, this is just a placeholder, they can't be so lame to have a different warfare unit, with completly different functions, baing called and looking like a big version of the other, they're more creative than that".
Turns out they aren't more creative than that ¬¬
Really? The faction with the magic builders, all the potential they had and the only thing the devs could think was "pyramid and great pyramid" as ballista and catapult?
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 04:09 AM |
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Lokheit said:
Well, when I first saw the leaked images long ago, already naming it pyramid and great pyramid or something in those lines I though "ok, this is just a placeholder, they can't be so lame to have a different warfare unit, with completly different functions, baing called and looking like a big version of the other, they're more creative than that".
Turns out they aren't more creative than that ¬¬
Really? The faction with the magic builders, all the potential they had and the only thing the devs could think was "pyramid and great pyramid" as ballista and catapult?
Just because it's a magic weapon used by a faction of magic users doesn't mean everything has to have an overly complicated name. I mean, what would you prefer? "Mystic Diamond"? People look at those things and they think "Pyramid" and "Bigger Pyramid" - calling it something like a "Zigguratamous" or something like that is just obtuse.
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Lokheit
Known Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 04:26 AM |
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Edited by Lokheit at 04:28, 13 Dec 2014.
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Kimarous said:
Lokheit said:
Well, when I first saw the leaked images long ago, already naming it pyramid and great pyramid or something in those lines I though "ok, this is just a placeholder, they can't be so lame to have a different warfare unit, with completly different functions, baing called and looking like a big version of the other, they're more creative than that".
Turns out they aren't more creative than that ¬¬
Really? The faction with the magic builders, all the potential they had and the only thing the devs could think was "pyramid and great pyramid" as ballista and catapult?
Just because it's a magic weapon used by a faction of magic users doesn't mean everything has to have an overly complicated name. I mean, what would you prefer? "Mystic Diamond"? People look at those things and they think "Pyramid" and "Bigger Pyramid" - calling it something like a "Zigguratamous" or something like that is just obtuse.
What I mean is that making something bigger doesn't change its functionality, it's the same thing but bigger, if you're carrying a bigger version of your anti troops machine, why aren't you using it to clean more troops on a regular basis? A Trebuchet and a Ballista are 2 completly different things and they aren't overly complicated, just different.
Here we had a faction with tons of possibilities and we get the same thing 2 times...
If people hated it when more than 1 unit had a sword (I didn't particlarly hate that btw, would've prefered a mace thrown there, but I'm ok with those units), I think this is even worse, just my opinion but I'm really disappointed with Academy's warfare units for a lack of creativity.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 13, 2014 11:08 AM |
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That simurgh is still a phoenix. I don't get why they bothered making a distinction between the two.
And two pyramids? Really? Why not only one and the other something else? Lame.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 13, 2014 01:01 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Galaad said:
kiryu133 said:
h6 proved that complex combat
What h6 complex combat ?? As far as I recall it was pretty much the one having the biggest army that won from that game 
complexity =/= depth. h6 is a prime example of this as it was complex but it still only boiled down to who had the largest army. it lacked depth.
H6 combat lacked anything but depth. With similar armies and hero levels you had a lot to consider and battles were most exciting against a decent player. If someone falls behind in army growth that means that his opponent is better at creeping, town building or adventure map management in general, which is nothing new to the series.
Instead, the problem as I see it was the ease at which you could accumulate core creatures and how good they were compared to the other tiers. But if you played a map where a specific tier was not particularly favoured, the battles played out fine. And then there was another variable, the blood or tears mastery which could make battles with the same army size easy or hard. Very messy. To get a proper feel of the balance you had to test different variations of army size/hero level/reputation level because in some the game felt hopelessly unbalanced while in others it was fine.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 01:11 PM |
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Well, we won't have that blood tears system anymore. Instead we're gonna get a lot of different classes. Just from the Haven page we can see that we'll have 3 magic ones and 3 might ones. Now that's supposed to offer more variability which is good, but implementation's everything, so we might end up with either completely useless classes or broken ones. My hope is that they will be balanced and worthwhile, and have different skills opened for learning. For example let's say a Cleric class would have different magic schools than a Inquisitor class.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 01:21 PM |
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Stevie said:
My hope is that they will be balanced and worthwhile, and have different skills opened for learning. For example let's say a Cleric class would have different magic schools than a Inquisitor class.
Even though it makes sense(like in Duel of Champions) I don't think that they will have different schools, but they might very well favor one school over another, or favor different parts of the same school with their skills and abilities.
So, Inquisitor would get perks and skills for aggressive light magic(offensive buffs, damaging light spells) where Cleric could get perks and skills for defensive light magic(healing, defensive buffs and spells) or something like that.
This way they will still lean toward preferred spell schools, but you won't cut the options for other ones if someone wants to play Cleric a bit differently.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 01:24 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 02:04 PM |
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This diferent perk think dosen't sound too good for me ... I mean you have to remember that every hero always had it's own perk (speciality) in past heroes games. All this sounds to me we'll more likely get to choose between "just" 6 diferent heroes for each faction (3 might and 3 magic), just like in H6 there were 2 heroes to choose from. Don't get me wrong, it beter than H6, but 6 heroes per faction sounds a bit underwhelming for me personaly.
Now i know (and i hope) this may not be true, but it's Ubi we're talkin' about. So i don't exactly hold my breath.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 02:11 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
This diferent perk think dosen't sound too good for me ... I mean you have to remember that every hero always had it's own perk (speciality) in past heroes games. All this sounds to me we'll more likely get to choose between "just" 6 diferent heroes for each faction (3 might and 3 magic), just like in H6 there were 2 heroes to choose from. Don't get me wrong, it beter than H6, but 6 heroes per faction sounds a bit underwhelming for me personaly.
Now i know (and i hope) this may not be true, but it's Ubi we're talkin' about. So i don't exactly hold my breath.
Nah, perks and specialties aren't the same thing. What you are describing are specialties and every hero should have one and unique specialty, perks are mini-skills that are unlocked by picking certain skills when you level up.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 13, 2014 05:26 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:28, 13 Dec 2014.
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Elvin said:
With similar armies and hero levels you had a lot to consider and battles were most exciting against a decent player.
I had a decent few fights in mmh6 but none were close to the epicness of the ones I had in homm3. Be it single or multi. My point though was about being able to beat an opponent which is way stronger than you, both in hero stats and army size, because of good timing and clever decisions. I certainly have no pretension nor claiming I'm especially good or whatever, and I didn't explore much mmh6 (even though I tried), but it always seemed to me that in that game everything relied about getting as many castles and creatures dwellings as possible.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 13, 2014 06:48 PM |
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Stevie said:
Well, we won't have that blood tears system anymore. Instead we're gonna get a lot of different classes. Just from the Haven page we can see that we'll have 3 magic ones and 3 might ones.
I'm pretty sure it was stated some time ago that there won't be that many different classes per factions, but only one might and one magic. Whether what's on the homepage is a relic of something not being implemented after all, or simply reflects that there'll only be three heroes in each class (unlikely - I hope!), I don't know.
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What will happen now?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 06:57 PM |
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if you can consistantly beat oponent that is stronger then you in all/most areas then this sounds to me that something is wrong, rather than a good thing. Either oponent dosen't know what he's doing, or is AI that makes predictable decisions, which you can exploit over and over again. That was the case in H6 aswell, as you could abuse town portals to make AI heroes "loced" in his castles (it wasn't possible on all maps - but on some it was particulary effective - Rise to Power comes to mind). It could also be some OP combo you can rely on, that AI dosen't consider or use - like Archangel-Clone combo. However in multiplayer that stuff is known and can be countered with players that aren't new to game.
Truth is, if theres a OP spell or strategy or skill, that you can exploit to beat oponents that would otherwise legitimately defeat you hands down, I would say that's a sign of poor balancing rather than a good one.
Now i won't say that it isn't fun in sigle player to defeat oponent, that seems certain to wipe you out. That moments are some of the best, and when playing campaign are actualy relied upon, if you wanna do harder difficulty. When you defeat whole enemy army with couple of ghost and smart use of mirror immage and puppet master, the feeling is great.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 06:58 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:59, 13 Dec 2014.
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alcibiades said:
I'm pretty sure it was stated some time ago that there won't be that many different classes per factions, but only one might and one magic. Whether what's on the homepage is a relic of something not being implemented after all, or simply reflects that there'll only be three heroes in each class (unlikely - I hope!), I don't know.
They changed the number of icons with the Haven update during Igromir, from 4 undefined to 6 with 3 under might and 3 under magic. I think it was intentional.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 13, 2014 07:11 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
if you can consistantly beat oponent that is stronger then you in all/most areas then this sounds to me that something is wrong
I don't know if you were replying to me, but I didn't intend to apply that beating stronger opponents was possible everytime. However, just like in chess, concentration is of crucial importance during a 1v1 fight, if you neglect a turn that your opponent planned in advance, you suddenly suffer sever losses.
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hycoo7
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 13, 2014 07:45 PM |
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Edited by hycoo7 at 19:46, 13 Dec 2014.
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I always look/hope for heroes combat to be like chess. Each unit should somewhat have a simple and unique mechanic that makes it different from other units, but nothing too complex. Stuff like piercing shot, sweep and arcane wings are great because they value positioning and rewards good plays.
This can be said about stats aswell. If you have a tough unit that can bind up shooters (or even other units (treeant)) you wanna get it in position as fast as possible. While you wanna protect your squishier units.
Looking forward to trying the new battlefields with different obstacle layouts.
Hoping for a perk system that makes heroes specialize in a certain playstyle and not be able to do most things.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 13, 2014 07:52 PM |
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Stevie said:
They changed the number of icons with the Haven update during Igromir, from 4 undefined to 6 with 3 under might and 3 under magic. I think it was intentional.
Well yes, it must have some significance then. Guess time will show what.
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What will happen now?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 07:59 PM |
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Galaad said:
I don't know if you were replying to me, but I didn't intend to apply that beating stronger opponents was possible everytime. However, just like in chess, concentration is of crucial importance during a 1v1 fight, if you neglect a turn that your opponent planned in advance, you suddenly suffer sever losses.
I replyed to you sure, but it was in general aswell ... I like your comparison to chess tho, and it is true. It is also true that in chess both players start off exactly (well not realy since white has first move, and thus his win-ratio is a bit higher, but that's high level chess we're talking) ballanced. If in chess you win against an enemy without rooks for eg., then that means that you are realy far superior to him, and he's probably a begginer. No way can equaly good player hope to defeat his oponent with that much handicap.
Same in Heroes realy - If you beat oponent that outclasses you in every way it means he dosen't realy know what's he doing.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 13, 2014 08:11 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 20:12, 13 Dec 2014.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
If in chess you win against an enemy without rooks for eg., then that means that you are realy far superior to him, and he's probably a begginer.
Not necessarily, I'm not a very skilled chess player but my brother plays at professional level, and he more than once showed me masters games where all seemed lost at some point for the winner. I'll try not forget to ask him if he can provide an example next time I meet him 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2014 08:53 PM |
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Galaad said:
he more than once showed me masters games where all seemed lost at some point for the winner. I'll try not forget to ask him if he can provide an example next time I meet him
Sure There are examples like that, even I know some of them. Great players make some unortodox move, that noone considered, and it saved him the game. Or oponent realy made a huge blunder, basicaly throwing the seemingly assured victory away. I myself am not a proffesional player by a long shot, but I used to play chess quite a bit. That was quite a few years ago tho, and have hardly played a game since. What is important, is that at the start of the game both players started off with "same" starting position. Noone was missing any pieces or made extra moves. During the game, it was entierly players own fault, if he somehow ended up in a quite disadvantageous position near the end.
In Heroes game however, equal starting position is relatively rare occurance outside premade duel battles, and even those can be debated. In most scenarios one player has the edge. That is because there is just too much variables. If simply one player has shooter creep protecting important resource, while other have slow moving golems protecting his, for exapmple, one has the advantage. And it's random stuff like that. Only in duel battles can you have ballanced battles, and that is because troop advantage, for eg. can be supplemented by higher stats, or extra artifacts, or perhaps powerfull spell and vice versa. And H6 was quite good in this area actualy - i feel "equal battles" was where it shined the most.
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