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andy_dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 08:54 PM |
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By the way. Do we know yet if there will be 2 hero classes per faction? One for Magic and one for Might? This too is extremely important to make a good Heroes game, and I can't stress the word extremely too much in this regard. 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 17, 2014 08:57 PM |
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andy_dandy said:
Now if they only could bring back the fascinating gameplay with H4 single standing heroes as well.
I hope not, because that lead to hero-only armies ... at least in the campaigns against the AI.
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andy_dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 09:08 PM |
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Maurice said:
andy_dandy said:
Now if they only could bring back the fascinating gameplay with H4 single standing heroes as well.
I hope not, because that lead to hero-only armies ... at least in the campaigns against the AI.
This was balanced in different ways for instance by more heroes in an army meant they shared the experience gain.
One could also expand further on this and introduce increased costs on hiring heroes for every hero you hire etc.
To me it was the natural evolution of the Heroes franchise.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 09:25 PM |
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Maurice said:
andy_dandy said:
Now if they only could bring back the fascinating gameplay with H4 single standing heroes as well.
I hope not, because that lead to hero-only armies ... at least in the campaigns against the AI.
Well imo H5 had quite good compromise between H3 and H4 heroe system, atleast the way I saw it. It dialed back a bit from H4, but it allowed heroes to have their own place on ATB bar, and attack units or cast spells or perform special combat abilities. However they were untargetable (except in certain rare cases), and obviously you could only have one. Their attacks could even become very powerfull with skills - I always like Barbarian hero who can kill several dragons before battle even starts! - but never so powerfull that you could go into the battle army-less. I mean to me H5 combat system always felt the best with it's initiative system, and it's a shame that H6 (and also H7??) didn't continue that.
The good thing in H4 was that, each individual unit had it's own movement speed, so it prevented hero chains, and also was a lot more strategical regarding army composition. Specialy now that we have caravans, unit speed on adventure map I think would be a good option. I understand tho, that it would not apeal to a lot of people, since it would make games more complex.
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andy_dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 09:32 PM |
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That would certainly appeal to me. It's the right kind of complexity. In any case: The caravan and reinforcement system will hugely increase the strategical level of this game, and I like the fact they have been inspired by a H4 feature and improved on it. 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 17, 2014 10:21 PM |
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That article is too focused on Heroes III, lol.
Simplicity rules, no doubt about it, but H4 (and H5 too) brought some changes that were for the best, Heroes III wasn't a perfect gem (very polished though ).
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted December 17, 2014 11:09 PM |
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This:
Quote:
In Heroes VII, creatures tend to have less abilities, and use more passive abilities similar to those found in Heroes III (e.g.: Medusa attacks have XX% chance to turn enemies to stone).
and this:
Quote:
In Heroes VII, having no town conversion pushes the player to play more than just one faction at a time either by mixing armies or by leading more heroes to the front, just like in Heroes III.
Me happy!
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted December 17, 2014 11:29 PM |
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blob2 said:
This:
Quote:
In Heroes VII, creatures tend to have less abilities, and use more passive abilities similar to those found in Heroes III (e.g.: Medusa attacks have XX% chance to turn enemies to stone).
and this:
Quote:
In Heroes VII, having no town conversion pushes the player to play more than just one faction at a time either by mixing armies or by leading more heroes to the front, just like in Heroes III.
Me happy!
Once again I am in agreement with you Mr. Blob2.
I also agree with the references on this page about the H5 hero involvement being very good. While there are a lot of things in H4 I liked, the hero being killable on the battlefield was not one of them. Or the armies that roamed around without a hero.
The Academy townscreen is certainly lacking in civilian structures and feel.
I am really confused about the difference between the screenshot they showed us of the townscreen, and how it will actually look. Is this some sort of raw artwork that will have the same layout but look MUCH different in the real game? I'd hope so. The townscreen right now looks like a cartoon drawing instead of real buildings.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 11:45 PM |
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It'd be nice having a video of the town screen to see all the animations in action.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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andy_dandy
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 17, 2014 11:58 PM |
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TDL said:
People's response to the way they dealt with abilities in HVII makes me sad and hollow inside. I think this is the most overlooked improvement H4 had over H3 and, imbalanced in terms of strength as it was, it still held a decent balance between passive/activated abilities and pretty much every critter had unique abilities.
The way they turned this around makes me slightly annoyed as I wholeheartedly prefer activated or at least passive aggressive abilities, while the more I see it, the more I feel they are inclined towards having a modicum of passive defensive abilities which will only make the game more reliant on various defensive placement tactics for factions. I do not enjoy HOMM battles in the same form as I enjoy chess: I want them to have a more fast pace.
I agree H4 was best also here, but the reason I support this is I can't stand tons of abilities that must be activated etc. It doesen't add to the depth of battles the way I see it, nor to strategy, and just becomes tedious. And the kind of active special abilities refered too has nothing to do with H4.
It's true some H4 units had a rich amount of abilities and all at least one, but all of them were passive and that was the beauty of it. Also remember that abilities like ranged and flying was counted in. You had the caster units of course, that I also loved, but just a few was enough.
I actually think H7 will end up more H4-like then H3-like in this regard, since I think most units will have 1 passive ability at least.
But then again, in a system with upgradable units it might be a good idea to give only the upgraded version a special ability in most cases, much like in H3. This can be a usefull tool to make the upgraded units stand out more.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted December 18, 2014 12:30 AM |
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andy_dandy said:
But then again, in a system with upgradable units it might be a good idea to give only the upgraded version a special ability in most cases, much like in H3. This can be a usefull tool to make the upgraded units stand out more.
Agreed.
All Core + Titan from Academy line-up share abilities (unupgraded and upgraded creature). I guess some could have a bigger effect on the upgrade (like Titans getting more % of damage), but as they are presented in the website, some upgrades look underwhelming
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted December 18, 2014 12:34 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Simplicity rules, no doubt about it, but H4 (and H5 too) brought some changes that were for the best
Hear, hear ! At the top of my mind thinking of the spell system (H4) & skillwheel (H5).
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted December 18, 2014 03:31 AM |
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Edited by TDL at 03:36, 18 Dec 2014.
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andy_dandy said:
It's true some H4 units had a rich amount of abilities and all at least one, but all of them were passive and that was the beauty of it. Also remember that abilities like ranged and flying was counted in. You had the caster units of course, that I also loved, but just a few was enough.
I actually think H7 will end up more H4-like then H3-like in this regard, since I think most units will have 1 passive ability at least.
There is a huge difference between having passive aggressive and passive defensive abilities and this is what makes or breaks the abilities.
For every shooter in H4 had an accompanying ability, be it stun shot, long range, stone gaze, etc. All of them imply that the usage of the shooting ability with be strengthened. No shooter had 0 accompanying abilities. I might be wrong about fliers, but I am fairly sure none of those were without abilities either. Also, flying abilities mostly gave high movement, high speed and mostly leaned towards swift damage dealing, which is why accompanying abilities by themselves were meant to mostly increase defense of the otherwise fragile attacker (save for level 4s). IF that carries over I am more than fine if they have next to no activated abilities, but that might not be the case.
Furthermore, I am heavily anti-turtling in my views and I find having "help allies +x" not beneficial in the slightest as it forces you into a certain game style in order to benefit from the unit. These abilities I call passive defensive. Couple them with slow speed and low ini and you have a useless tank with nothing to balance things out. This might not be overly important with core units (although I am heavily inclined towards ways to ease early core creeping by making it happen faster rather than slower), but in the case of magic bird/simurgh, it just feels lame in comparison to the titan that they do not have some passive aggressive or straight up activated abilities.
I too would not want to tread back to what happened in H5/H6, which is why in some thread (god knows which...) I outlined what could be done to avoid this (by introducing a "status" or "resistance" field to outlines certain immunities/vulnerabilities and states of being (living, undead, demonic, etc.)). However, having passive defensive abilities is like having none at all because they require you to play a certain way to make use of them which heavily leans towards defensive play which is neither preferred nor the way it should be.
Abilities allow you to make a choice in terms of your tactics. They should not restrict you to a certain playstyle, but allow more flexibility.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted December 18, 2014 04:45 AM |
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andy_dandy said:
By the way. Do we know yet if there will be 2 hero classes per faction? One for Magic and one for Might? This too is extremely important to make a good Heroes game, and I can't stress the word extremely too much in this regard.
It's 6, 3 of each type, by the looks of the website! They haven't been revealed yet...
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Kurush
Known Hero
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posted December 18, 2014 06:59 AM |
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I think it's still two classes, but with two alternative upgrades. Just without the bloodtears system
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Hunters11
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 18, 2014 07:34 AM |
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Haven 4 units stat
Russia Gameshow pre-alpha ver.
[url=http://postimage.org/] [/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/]upload image online[/url]
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 18, 2014 07:57 AM |
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It gives a general idea but on the other hand it doesn't mean much. In H5 alpha necropolis had incorporeal on ghosts, wraiths AND spectral dragons  And in early H6 marksmen had more movement than cavaliers. Even stats on the release are subject to change so I wouldn't put much faith in pre-alpha stats.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Kenishi
Famous Hero
passed out drunk in Tavern's
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posted December 18, 2014 08:34 AM |
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Regarding the Line up of Academy ... well I guess i don't have a lot to complain it's pretty much ok, just curios if the Golem UNFETTERED ability is just a magic protection against slow or other movement reducing ability's or it makes him ignore terrain obstacle (considering the big thing is flanking and maps with lots of obstacles at list that is what I got from all the footage we've seen so far in the stream and Gamescom presentation) ... might lead to some interesting gameplay by braking down obstacle to reach archers that are hidden/ protected ...
The town screen's ... well not going to bother much I still love the H5 town screens but if because of budgetary they cant make new 3D town screens so be it. Basically from my point of view anything else is inferior so it doesn't make a difference how bad it is it's just bad and is just a place holder
And on a final note glad to see a return to more classic gamplay regarding stats the Heroes 6 one was just to convoluted.
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No Gods, no Masters. Knowledge is Power, and Power is Freedom
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted December 18, 2014 10:41 AM |
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From my perspective the 6 and (as yet) 7 town screens are on par with the H5 town screens, only with different problems.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted December 18, 2014 11:37 AM |
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Avirosb said:
From my perspective the 6 and (as yet) 7 town screens are on par with the H5 town screens, only with different problems.
H6 townscreens were utter sh!t. They are no where near H5.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
