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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:09 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 14:13, 25 Jan 2015.
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Elvin said:
I have long hoped for that but it's early to consider  Still, the idea that sylvan could have a unicorn, dungeon a manticore and necropolis a mummy.. Want.
Well, that or alternative upgrades. But 4th elite/core option would probably be the best.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:10 PM |
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 25, 2015 02:23 PM |
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The roster is so packed that 5 could easily fit in both core and elite tiers for each faction -atleast for the classic factions- and still have room left for variations between following games.
What I'm currently worried about is how this newest tide of fanrage is going to affect development. I'm kindof secretly hoping that they simply don't give a cr*p about what we say and focus time and money on gameplay elements instead of cosmetic changes. As much comnempt as the Vampire/Lich design deserves, all would be forgiven if they could implement proper necromancy game-mechanics from day1, instead of the 2nd expansion like in H5 or never in case of H6. Not to mention that since the game is made with modding in mind the models are probably going to get modded out of the game 2 weeks after release if some modding-enthusiasts start early.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 25, 2015 02:29 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:34, 25 Jan 2015.
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red_flag said:
Not agree, Lich have less or almost equal changes than Sentinel. Vampire totaly the same.
I knew that Necro was green in Heroes VI but that lich is a disco light. That comparison made me realise that liches are improved to a great extent. Thank god the green colour was scrapped for more neutral greys.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 25, 2015 02:33 PM |
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I already talked to Elvin on skype about it and I am going to repeat myself here. Even though we now know Ubi is not prone to force their devs to deliver changes, if we look back how many small things changed during the closed/open beta phases in heroes 5 (namely, elemental chains gone, tree ants substituted treants, etc.) that I do not count out the possibility we will see them switch things around towards the end. After all, elemental chains, even though superb idea, were cast out because of its complicated nature and community's reaction. Hence, I would not put it past them to do a 360 on several of the things from here on out.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:35 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 14:36, 25 Jan 2015.
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fuChris said:
What I'm currently worried about is how this newest tide of fanrage is going to affect development. I'm kindof secretly hoping that they simply don't give a cr*p about what we say and focus time and money on gameplay elements instead of cosmetic changes. As much comnempt as the Vampire/Lich design deserves, all would be forgiven if they could implement proper necromancy game-mechanics from day1, instead of the 2nd expansion like in H5 or never in case of H6. Not to mention that since the game is made with modding in mind the models are probably going to get modded out of the game 2 weeks after release if some modding-enthusiasts start early.
Or they could give a crap and focus on gameplay and models at the same time.
And since they have modding in mind, they could just put stick figures for each creature and let the community mod them.
Weirdest train of thought 2015.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:36 PM |
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i don't like how the Lich looks like but i don't mind the Vamp.
Anyhow, don't you guys think that the game is kinda low budget and we shouldn't expect high production value.
I mean so many things are getting scrapped from previous installments and they choose the easiest routes (2D Town Screens, no ATB initiative etc.).
Anyhow, i dont think that the graphics of particular units are important.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 02:45 PM |
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The design decisions were not made out of budget restrictions, I don't know where people got this idea from. The implementation of 2D townscreens and no ATB initiative have both been explained by the devs in the live demo session.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 25, 2015 02:56 PM |
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Stevie said:
The design decisions were not made out of budget restrictions, I don't know where people got this idea from.
I'm pretty sure they literally said the 3D townscreens of Heroes 5 were very expensive to make and out of their budget this time
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 25, 2015 02:59 PM |
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Stevie said:
Or they could give a crap and focus on gameplay and models at the same time.
But game development doesn't work that way. The only thing redirecting development resources would have is that the game would be released in pre-alpha state instead of beta state, because we all know better than to expect anything else from Ubisoft.
And I don't think that a few reused models could do more harm to the already tattered name of the franchise than another sh*tty game that needs two expansions before it is actually playable as intended both singleplayer and competitive multiplayer. Balance doesn't grow on trees and netiher does development money.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 03:04 PM |
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verriker said:
I'm pretty sure they literally said the 3D townscreens of Heroes 5 were very expensive to make and out of their budget this time
They explained that you'd look at the townscreen once and be done with it and that they would rather invest the money into something else. That's light years away from saying they don't have money to do them.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pavijan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 03:08 PM |
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Edited by Pavijan at 15:22, 25 Jan 2015.
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fuChris said:
Stevie said:
Or they could give a crap and focus on gameplay and models at the same time.
But game development doesn't work that way. The only thing redirecting development resources would have is that the game would be released in pre-alpha state instead of beta state, because we all know better than to expect anything else from Ubisoft.
And I don't think that a few reused models could do more harm to the already tattered name of the franchise than another sh*tty game that needs two expansions before it is actually playable as intended both singleplayer and competitive multiplayer. Balance doesn't grow on trees and netiher does development money.
Changing of the face on lich to skeletal one, and maybe removing of spider legs on hes back (personally I don't have anything against those) while keeping the general model REALLY doesn't take away that much of design developers time and money. And it wouldn't affect balance and gameplay dev team a single bit...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 03:14 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:22, 25 Jan 2015.
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fuChris said:
Stevie said:
Or they could give a crap and focus on gameplay and models at the same time.
But game development doesn't work that way. The only thing redirecting development resources would have is that the game would be released in pre-alpha state instead of beta state, because we all know better than to expect anything else from Ubisoft.
And I don't think that a few reused models could do more harm to the already tattered name of the franchise than another sh*tty game that needs two expansions before it is actually playable as intended both singleplayer and competitive multiplayer. Balance doesn't grow on trees and netiher does development money.
Personally I think you have no clue what you're talking about. They received complaints BEFORE they entered development of Heroes 7 and they still decided to go against that. It's not a resource problem, it never was, it's a game design problem. If it were a resource problem they wouldn't have invested into community involvement and we wouldn't even have gotten randomization as an in-game feature after our #GURS movement. Not that retouching Liches to make them skeletal would've been such a major investment.
Here's Marzhin on Game Development in the context of MMX. You can find his full post here.
Marzhin said:
When a project starts, the dev team and publisher discuss together (sometimes for months) to agree on a budget, a deadline and a scope. This is the combination of several factors: how much copies the publisher expects to sell, how experienced the team is, etc. Then a contract is signed between the two parties.
When the dev team comes short of budget in the middle of the development, then most of the time it's because they have poorly planned and estimated time/costs to begin with (although some unforeseeable stuff can happen too - a contractor increases his prices, etc.)
When a publisher asks for new features that were not part of the agreed-upon scope, sometimes the team feel they can do it within the signed terms, sometimes it leads to renegotiation of the budget and deadline. The contract also means the publisher won't cut budget in half in the middle of a development just because "publishers are evil". It doesn't work that way. The publisher has to honour his part of the contract.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 25, 2015 03:38 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 15:41, 25 Jan 2015.
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Stevie said:
It's not a resource problem, it never was, it's a game design problem.
It can still become a resource problem. Face it, Ubi are cheapskates through and through.
Stevie said:
If it were a resource problem they wouldn't have invested into community involvement and we wouldn't even have gotten randomization as an in-game feature after our #GURS movement. Not that retouching Liches to make them skeletal would've been such a major investment.
I think I personally argued quite vocally that the whole community management was a waste of time and resources and nothing that has happened since has proved me otherwise. And the #GURS movement you speak about happened due to info from a Twich session and was not communicated through the site.
The whole voting shenanigans are really a faliure on Ubi-s part. No self respecting developer ever has to justify their design decisions. It is their profession. They SHOULD know better then us common folk how a game should work.
And the whole retouching the liches argument leads to a slippery slope. Once you give way to such demands then the next thing you know is that every design decision is going to be second guessed by every troll on the Ubi site.Next thing you know and they want them to do a faction revote 2 monts from release.
Marzhin said:
When the dev team comes short of budget in the middle of the development, then most of the time it's because they have poorly planned and estimated time/costs to begin with (although some unforeseeable stuff can happen too - a contractor increases his prices, etc.)
When a publisher or fansite asks for new features that were not part of the agreed-upon scope, sometimes the team feel they can do it within the signed terms, sometimes it leads to renegotiation of the budget and deadline.
You are just making my point for me. Let me remind you that Ubisoft let a company go to bankruptcy just cos they felt they could get a game on the cheap side. My argument is that while Limbic may be receptive to our demands ant try to implement them, I fail to see any good coming out of it if it forces the developers to strech beyond their boundaries.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 03:59 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:59, 25 Jan 2015.
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They wouldn't have had to stretch on anything if they would've agreed on redesigning the Necropolis creatures from the very beginning. It may as well be too late at this point but that's not the issue I'm addressing. What I'm enraged about is the fact that in spite of all the criticism they received before any contract of producing Heroes 7 was signed they still decided to go with non-skeletal liches and the like. The direction of Necropolis is not because of lack of money, it's because of lore, lore that's being forced on us despite the criticism it received, so there's no excuse.
And even if they didn't had the money, what kind of publisher would contract making a game based on the premise of importing assets from the previous iteration? Wouldn't you get the money first and then design the new ones that you want? You don't make a game if you don't have the budget for it, lol.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 25, 2015 04:11 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 16:11, 25 Jan 2015.
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Stevie said:
And even if they didn't had the money, what kind of publisher would contract making a game based on the premise of importing assets from the previous iteration? Wouldn't you get the money first and then design the new ones that you want? You don't make a game if you don't have the budget for it, lol.
With my all love to Nintendo, it is a company that does such a thing. Look at "New Super Mario Bros." series or "Pokemon" games across the same generation games. Those two (and many others) games excessively reuse assets from previous iterations of their games, yet most of the people seem to love it.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 25, 2015 04:12 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 16:13, 25 Jan 2015.
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Could've, Would've, Should've. That is all in the past now. All signs of mismanagementand of multiple people trying to influence the game(>.> I'm looking at you Erwan).
It is no surprise that the best Ubisoft era game came from Nival who, while blatantly stole ideas from warhammer were basically left alone to deveop the game after the most basic (and I mean ASHAN BASIC)story and asthetic features were aggreed upon. A game developer left alone to do what they do best. Develop games.
Pawek_13 said:
With my all love to Nintendo, they are a company that does such a thing. Look at "New Super Mario Bros." series or "Pokemon" games across the same generation games. Those two (and many others) games excessively reuse assets from previous iterations of their games, yet most of the people seem to love it.
Ws just about to mention thse two.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Pavijan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 04:12 PM |
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fuChris said:
Stevie said:
And the whole retouching the liches argument leads to a slippery slope. Once you give way to such demands then the next thing you know is that every design decision is going to be second guessed by every troll on the Ubi site.Next thing you know and they want them to do a faction revote 2 monts from release.
Actually no. While we mostly agree about all voting business, for every designer decision you usually have 3 groups of fans : the ones that love it, ones that do not care and ones that hate it. In that case they post a vote or go with their decision knowing that they made at least somebody happy. Opponents will continue to whine over the forums, no matter how minor they are, and they will be rightfully ignored.
Considering lich design you have only 2 groups: the ones who do not care and ones who hate it with passion. Not a single guy outside their team actually likes them. And those who hate them are not just a few lonely trolls, they could really be the the majority.
And with the fact that it is a really simple fix, business sense, on the fist place, should dictate that they do it.
It is a far cry of faction re-vote or something that resource consuming, they should make it clear that those things should never be second guessed.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2015 04:26 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
With my all love to Nintendo, it is a company that does such a thing. Look at "New Super Mario Bros." series or "Pokemon" games across the same generation games. Those two (and many others) games excessively reuse assets from previous iterations of their games, yet most of the people seem to love it.
Stevie said:
I'm just gonna make one thing clear. I'm not complaining about recycling per se and I've said it in some other post before. If the model is good, reuse it if necessary. But if the model is bad?!
If Nintendo or whoever released the game Pokemon 6 and used this as a model for Pikachu, and get a lot of hate for it, would they still consider the same model for Pokemon 7? Now think of liches or vampires.....
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 25, 2015 04:29 PM |
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I'll try to make a slightly different approach.
OK Ubi want's to reuse for it's reasons. But if they do want to reuse a lich model, why not reuse a different lich. No I'm not talking about the H5 one, but the one from DM.
What do you people think of such an option?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
