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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 05:52 PM |
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verriker said:
listen, unless you actually have any notion of the cost and risk of that project, which neither of us do, you'd probably do well not to come in and suggest people are false fans who should be throwing ourselves off cliffs in thanks for Ubisoft's charity,
because I promise you they're not spitting out this botched HD collection of Heroes 3 out of the pure goodness of their hearts, any more than their $10 "adventure packs" of three maps each from back in the day deserve genuflection and saintly praise
Listen, I just have my head on my shoulders and general idea about how this market works, and it's my word vs yours that selling just redesigned (and ancient, really) project is way too risky in terms of sails. You don't need to be economical expert to come to this conclusion. Disciples, for instance (if you know such brend), failed when they just released redesinged DisIII with many changes. And it was fresh project.
But those words about "false fans" surely sting you for some reason  I haven't pointed to you or anyone in particular and honestly, I was reffering to Facebook whiners. No need to get so angry.
Ofc Ubi as company intend to have profit from this project (justly so), but if H6 and H7 are destined to sell nevertheless, H3HD doesn't have such sort of insurance. So yeah, it is a step towards fans with the idea that that will provide money for that. I doubt Ubi will gain high profit from this.
But only time can tell who's right so I suggest waiting what'll happen with HD-edition.
Btw, devs explained why only RoE:
But why only RoE? To understand the origin of the project and its development we need to go back to 2003. At that time we asked New World Computing to retrieve their archives for all the Might & Magic titles. We found tons of documentation and data but regarding Heroes III we had nothing but the usable source code of Heroes III Restoration of Erathia.
But knowing you, you might not believe it.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 28, 2015 05:54 PM |
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my my, isn't Giovanni rather handsome 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 28, 2015 06:00 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 18:01, 28 Jan 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
my my, isn't Giovanni rather handsome
No wonder he twisted Ornella so easily around his little finger.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 28, 2015 06:05 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
No wonder he twisted Ornella so easily around his little finger.
weren't they cousins or something?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 28, 2015 06:15 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Pawek_13 said:
No wonder he twisted Ornella so easily around his little finger.
weren't they cousins or something?
Was that ever a problem in aristocratic circles? :-) I wonder how much we will see of his sister.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 06:19 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
This. Most of the times Ubi-Heroes arts and models are over-detailed.
Too bad that's the way it's gonna be. Models need to be cutscene-compatible.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 28, 2015 06:30 PM |
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Quote:
weren't they cousins or something?
George R.R Marin lawsuit incoming 
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted January 28, 2015 06:38 PM |
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Señor dela Segadora, you haven't changed a bit since we last saw you. Well, you've become a bit...pale, but that's a trivial thing.
You're a lucky fellow, you know that. You encountered Sandro, not exactly as friends, and lived. Who knows what everyone's beloved Nethermancer could have done to you?
____________
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 28, 2015 06:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Pawek_13 said:
No wonder he twisted Ornella so easily around his little finger.
weren't they cousins or something?
No. Giovanni was born in times around Heroes VI, while Ornella was at the age of 20-25 during the times of Heroes V, so they cannot be cousins.
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adriancat
Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
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posted January 28, 2015 06:54 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Btw guys, I’m really quite amazed by what’s happening right now with the “fanbase”. I don’t know how to name it, probably hypocrisy? Let me elaborate.
I really think that any developers of any Heroes of Might and Magic at any time will be victims of “damned if they do, damned if they don’t”. While developing Heroes, there’ll always be some small group of “die-hard” fans who will be always “stuck” in classic Heroes (I-III) and never accept changes. I can’t blame them, it’s the nostalgia, and that’s a powerful effect. I don’t know why I am not subject to it.
But do you guys remember the times of H6’s development? This forum’s usual audience hasn’t changed much from that time. Now, do you remember posts such as “why do they invest such money in the graphics, a strategy game can live without top-notch visuals! Better spend more money on gameplay features!” “Graphics don’t matter, give us great gameplay” Do you remember it? And H6 really threw too much money on visuals, as a result, it failed as a good game, despite selling well.
Now fans actually encourage them to throw money on visuals again. Repeating past mistakes which eventually crushed H6. Bravo fans! Suddenly visuals become as important as gameplay, suddenly you actually deeply care if Liches are skeletal or mummy-like. Why do you even care about visuals? That’s not what is important in a strategy game. And in my book I can’t name someone who cares so much about graphics “a M&M fan”. Why do you even care about visuals and try to convince devs make that stupid mistake again, when modders will change the whole visual look in, like, 2 weeks? But will modders add sim turns, RMG, additional (or improved) gameplay? I highly doubt it.
Mind you, the closest “ancestor” a Lich has in mythology is Koschei, which, well, never was depicted as skeletal anyway (on my memory). Just a piece if trivia. Also I guess everyone here knows from where Lich originated in fantasy? D&D, you’re right! And guess what – this is how a Lich is described there:
“A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.”
See, even there Liches aren’t completely skeletal. So a compromise exists. But why are “fans” so hateful towards new Liches? Because H2 and H3 had skeletal ones. Nostalgia, again. If you really like skeletal Liches, just wait ‘til the game’s release and re-work the textures. If H7 will have even half of H5’s modding possibilities, that can be done in a very short time.
Btw, you know what defines a Lich in a Heroes game in my book? Death cloud ability. I do prefer Liches being more rotten than what we have now, but without Death cloud it just feels not right. That’s more meaningful to me than Lich’s visual style.
Let me ask you a question. Do you really zoom in on the battlefield, viewing all your wonderful creatures and praising their beauty, or do you prefer to think about strategy? How many times entering a town you pause and say “What a beautiful town!”, huh? 1, 2, or maybe three? And then it just becomes a semi-automatic process of building the town though GUI. That was the case with H5’s townscreens, btw.
Now imagine some Ubi manager noticing all this fuss. Won’t he think “Wait, those fans are so obsessed with graphics! But the M&M team convinced me that gameplay is more important and the company should spend way more money on that. But look, these “fans” need only a good-looking strategy! Let’s make H8 with gorgeous graphics and irrelevant gameplay (but promise a classical Heroes title) and it still will sell well! Ahahah I’m genius!!!” You really want that to happen? If no, stop complaining about graphics and ask devs about sim turns, RMG, modding tools and other important things. #GUST, #GURMG!!!
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
THIS !!!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 28, 2015 06:56 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
No need to get so angry.
take the same to heart yourself, buddy
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 07:26 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:23, 29 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
Oh, this is wrong on many points. So, let me just tackle the greatest ones.
1. There is no such thing as Asha's favor. As Sandro correctly states, Asha does not answer the prayers of her followers, unlike the Elemental Gods. Asha, in her sleep, has a very laissez faire attitude to her creation. Nobody get's her favor, not even the ones who worship her "correctly", like the Blind Brothers or the Silent Sisters, let allone those who worship her wrongly, like the Necromancers.
Which gets us to the way Necromancers "get magic". They do not get it from Asha, as you claim against Sandro. They get in the same way as Wizards do. By dominating other magical beings and using artifacts that have bound spirits already. The magic of Necromancer differs from that of Wizards only in purpose, not in origin. Necromancy itself is actualy a from of Dark Magic which, if anything, would lead them to Malassa. The notion that Necromancers get their power from Asha is something that is between their ears.
Conceded. I have found lore that I was unaware of that confirms this. Truth be told, I was unnecessarily misguided by one of your points in a previous comment (this one: "Or through tearing the Veil and letting it's effects seep into the physical realm. Which seems to be what your suggesting. However, you should know that such things can only be done in two ways. 1: Through Nethermancy, but that would discard the need for the Manticore Venom. Or through Shamanism, which only Orcs can preform, due to their chaos-infused blood and the spilling thereof."). Therefore I chose to pursue the "Divine favor" path which I was unaware that didn't work with Asha in particular. Yet, I was right in that what I was going for initially could've been described as "Sar-Elam-esque", and I will explain that shortly after I clear some misunderstandings.
War-Overlord said:
2. The spirit world is on the other side of the Veil, you do not get close to that, you either get in or you do not. As I've said there are only 2 ways the Veil can be torn. Necromancy is not one of them.
Again, you either believe or you cleverly imply that the only way to get to the Spirit World is by "tearing" the Veil that separates it from the Physical World, which is false. You can "travel" through the Veil, which is what Sar-Elam did and his disciples also. The sole difference between Sar-Elam ascending to dragonhood and his disciples not being able to do the same is the fact that he found Asha's conscience in the Spirit World. He might as well have been the only one to ever set foot into the Spirit World to begin with, but I doubt that to be the case for the Veil too. In fact, I have found lore that pretty much contradicts that, here :" After Sar-Elam became the Seventh Dragon, many of his followers try to follow on his footsteps and undergo the same perilous journey through the Spirit World, to achieve the same transcendence. None succeeded. Those who survived the ordeal, including his seven disciples, however acquired great knowledge and wisdom during their spiritual quest.".
So what you have done in regards to the Veil and spiritual travel is making it a bigger problem than it actually is. Traveling through it is entirely possible, even though very dangerous. Not only is it possible, but doing so brings great knowledge, and with knowledge a better understanding of the spiritual world, the cycle of life and death, and ultimately power. There is legitimate reason behind that knowledge, as the Veil is not empty but filled with all kind of phenomena and entities. Look what Sar-Issus says about the Veil in his writings, The Myths of Creation: The two worlds [Spiritual and Physical] would be separated by the "Veil", a magical gate, an antechamber filled with dreams, ghosts and frozen memories.". It is to be expected that spirits traveling through the Veil to the other side where the Spirit World is should be found. I think a Necromant would very much appreciate a state of lichdom that allows partial attunement to the spirit world which provides a better understanding of the spirits and phenomena they are trying to manipulate and therefore make their magic more potent, don't you think?
War-Overlord said:
3. Necromancy only gives dominion over corpses, or spirits that have not passed on, like Ghosts which refuse to pass on or get lost or Ghouls, which are forcebly removed from the cycle. If anything, spirits very much need guidance to find their way to the Spiritworld, which is why the Silent Sisters exist, which is an actual cult of Asha. Necromancers who would follow spirits on their own are very likely to either get to the edge of the veil and then nothing, or they manage to follow the spirits to the Netherworld. The Netherworld being an anomaly between the Physical world and the Spiritworld, where the souls get trapped forever. So getting closer to Asha via the dead will get them nothing or trapped.
Also the chance of a Silent Sister aiding a Necromancer in this is non-existant, because the Sisters despise the Necromancers for their heretical interferrence in the proper cycles of life and death.
The fact that spirits "need guidance to find their way to the Spirit World" only proves two things: One, that spirits have the power in and of themselves to get to the Spirit World through the Veil by traveling and not by "tearing" anything, and Two, that, depending on what "guidance" means, the Silent Sisters know "the right way" through the Veil at the very least.
Quote:
4. Managing to reach conciousness of Asha, made Sar-Elam a God. Fact remains that Sar-Elam was the only one ever able to do so, despite his teachings being taught for centuries. That suggests that the teachings of Sar-Elam are flawed, because if they were not more talented Wizards would have been able to do so.
I think this is false, because he followed his own teachings. Furthermore he did not rectify any of them after his transcendence and return to Ashan, if that is of any indication.
War-Overlord said:
5. I agree with Sandro again here, that the major flaw in your explaination is that you don't explain anything, apart from all the flaws it otherwise has. You do not explain why this is the effect of Manticore venom, which in all other cases is simply a highly corrosive liquid. Your lore follows design argument fall on it's face as wel, as you do not follow it up. You claim to give a 100% lore-friendly explaination, which provides no explaination and clashes with the lore in many ways.
Explaining the effects of the Manticore venom is useless because it's already established lore with Moander's case. If you don't understand why that lead to his skeletal appearance then be my guest and ask Ubi about it, although I think it's quite clear. I only used it as a precedent because its result matches well with my goal - Skeletal Liches, which is the entire purpose of this endeavor, to prove that they can make the lore for it to include them.
On the other hand, if it's about why they get more power than normal liches, it's because skeletal lichdom is one step closer in nature to the spiritual world, and that provides a better understanding of (primordial?) magic, phenomena, entities like the spirit and ghosts and cycle of life and death - and yes, this is totally my input, but I does not contradict with any lore and it provides a persuasive reason to be accepted as a good transition from the "conventional" liches.
I understand Manticore poison combined with Namtaru venom as a mixture with contradictory effects. The Namtaru venom acts as an embalmer to preserve the body, while the Manticore poison acts as a corrosive substance as you said. On top of the fact that the body is left fleshless, the spirit too enters a contradictory state where, at the time of ingestion, it's being pushed towards departing the body by the Manticore venom as well as drawn back by the effects of the Namtaru venom that seeks to protect its link with the body. The result - a in between state where part of the Skeletal Lich's spirit is outside of its body into where the Veil begins and part is still attached. That brings great potential towards a better understanding of magic and the like.
One other reason for Skeletal Liches could involve something from the description of the Heroes 6 Archlich, where it's said: "An Archlich is given that title when he has continued "living" beyond what his or her physical shell would have normally permitted. Though this passage might seem arbitrary, it is not, for a Lich feels the moment pass when death should have come.". If drinking a mixture of Manticore poison and Namtaru venom results in the moment of death being right then and there, then there's a reason more to have Skeletal Liches as that invokes that state earlier and makes them more powerful.
This is my own rationalization but I don't find it contradictory with the lore. The novel parts that are introduced by me are there to provide a decent explanation for having Skeletal Liches, which is what we want. I would be curious to see what Marzhin has to say of this and if it's possible.
(And WO, I would appreciate if you tone down the animosity. Please consider the scope of this to be constructive criticism, not proving someone wrong.)
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 28, 2015 07:35 PM |
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I will reply to Stevie once I have the time.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted January 28, 2015 07:37 PM |
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Quote:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
A remark on the side note (sry for off topic). If you want a remake of a game that was released so long ago, it is natural to create a remake of game as a whole (with expansions!!!). What Ubi is doing is money-milking imo. I mean, we don't have documentation for AB and SoD...
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Findan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 08:07 PM |
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I wish we could see something from elves. Some arts maybe  I hope the Pixie and Blade Dancer from line-up voting will be preserved.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 28, 2015 08:08 PM |
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Findan said:
I wish we could see something from elves. Some arts maybe I hope the Pixie and Blade Dancer from line-up voting will be preserved.
Will take some time, Stronghold should go first.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 08:15 PM |
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verriker said:
take the same to heart yourself, buddy
Oh please, you know all too well that that PS wasn't written out of angry feelings
They surely took their time with TofTYW.
For some reason I think that we were supposed to get Stronghold reveal first, not Necro. Previous part of the tale ended on some grandiouse Orc coming, it would be logical to continue this with their reveal. But we get Necro instead.
Giovanni, Tieru, Slava, Kraal... What I like in Marzhin's way of writing is that he uses many already featured characters along with new ones or makes references to them in unexpected ways and places. Somehow helps with consistensy (no completely new heroes in every game). Interesting who really killed Sandalphon. I hope for Sandro 
Now we miss a Dwarf character. Some Dwarves would be appreciated.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 28, 2015 08:23 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
They surely took their time with TofTYW.
For some reason I think that we were supposed to get Stronghold reveal first, not Necro. Previous part of the tale ended on some grandiouse Orc coming, it would be logical to continue this with their reveal. But we get Necro instead.
Part six was originally supposed to come right after the website update. Then the update was delayed, and on my end I got caught on some other stuff related to pointy-eared individuals ^^
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Findan
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 08:39 PM |
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Oh my Marzhin, do you want me to die from curiosity about pointy-eared?
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted January 28, 2015 08:48 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Sandro400 said:
They surely took their time with TofTYW.
For some reason I think that we were supposed to get Stronghold reveal first, not Necro. Previous part of the tale ended on some grandiouse Orc coming, it would be logical to continue this with their reveal. But we get Necro instead.
Part six was originally supposed to come right after the website update. Then the update was delayed, and on my end I got caught on some other stuff related to pointy-eared individuals ^^
Marzhin at this rate pointy-eared fans won't hold on for to long. 
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
