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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 28, 2015 03:24 PM |
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I personally don't care if liches are skeletal or mummified. I just want better textures and coloring on them.
But, I can understand that for some fans that difference is very important. If developers caved in and decided to refine look of some units I dont get why is lore such a barrier.
Its not the first time lore has been changed or updated to allow developers to do what they envisioned.
We all remember that if Inferno was chosen, story would not revolve around new eclipse, nor it would take place in Sheogh. Story that allows demons to enter Ashan without eclipse in such numbers that they can be playable race is adaptation of lore. They had no problem with changing the lore then, why is lore such an obstacle now?
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 28, 2015 03:33 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
We all remember that if Inferno was chosen, story would not revolve around new eclipse, nor it would take place in Sheogh. Story that allows demons to enter Ashan without eclipse in such numbers that they can be playable race is adaptation of lore. They had no problem with changing the lore then, why is lore such an obstacle now?
Probably because they didn't even think about story at that point. They would have probably come up with some convoluted ideas to justify their presence thus adding even more plotholes to the lore.
That the story wouldn't revolve around an eclipse or be in Seogh I belive is only because as soon as the voting began the first question peple askes was if we would get another friggin eclipse story or not.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 03:35 PM |
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Well it's certainly...convenient that Inferno didn't make it 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 28, 2015 03:37 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Let me ask you a question. Do you really zoom in on the battlefield, viewing all your wonderful creatures and praising their beauty, or do you prefer to think about strategy?
But it's Ubisoft who decides to invest on highly detail models, to then use a pitiful scale in-game with an horrendous zoom so you can barely identify which is unit is each. Quite a paradox if you ask me.
Then again, I think the issue you're talking about is the art-style, not the quality of creature models (which is very high).
Sandro400 said:
How many times entering a town you pause and say “What a beautiful town!”, huh? 1, 2, or maybe three? And then it just becomes a semi-automatic process of building the town though GUI. That was the case with H5’s townscreens, btw.
I've lost count of the times I entered a town, get enthralled by the beautiful music while enjoying every little detail of the townscreen. Heroes is a competitive game, alright, but it can be also be a relaxing time too.
Implying that Towns should be just a GUI is BS.
Sandro400 said:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
Wow, you are really salty, aren't you?
The so called "HD edition" of H3 lacks both expansions, therefore missing significant content. I'd say fans expected the whole package and not a reduced one
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 03:44 PM |
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Avirosb said:
They've already thrown money on an artist who was clearly more interested in the money than his art.
Actually, artworks for H7 is pretty good. Or I misunderstood you?
Avirosb said:
What's with the "Suddenly" all of a sudden? Come now.
Why not. Dissatisfaction with Necro back at H6 era pales in comparison to what we have now. I even remember some people liked it (H6-Necro).
Avirosb said:
That remains to be seen now, doesn't it?
I really doubt they're so stupid as to make the same errors again and give hollow promises. So yea, I'm pretty much convinced that modding will be on H5-level. Not counting that H5's exe file was cracked which resulted in big fan projects - and that without all "modding support".
Avirosb said:
No Armageddon's Blade or Shadow of Death support? Puh-lease.
I say be thankful that H3 re edition ever came to light. They really had no need for this, it's mostly a gift. And guess how the fanbase welcomed it 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 28, 2015 03:50 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Its not the first time lore has been changed or updated to allow developers to do what they envisioned.
We all remember that if Inferno was chosen, story would not revolve around new eclipse, nor it would take place in Sheogh. Story that allows demons to enter Ashan without eclipse in such numbers that they can be playable race is adaptation of lore. They had no problem with changing the lore then, why is lore such an obstacle now?
Quite simply because "then", which never happened as Inferno lost the vote, it was something they wanted to change themselves. Or at least said they would, they never had to follow through.
This is not something they wanted to change.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 04:02 PM |
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Galaad said:
I will answer this as I am part of the angry mob regarding current Necropolis design. <...>
So please step back a little with the nostalgia accusation which is just an easy and inaccurate statement.
Did I pointed to you? There was no need in answering it.
Easy? Yes. Inaccurate? No.
Quote:
I mostly remember people complaining about removing core mechanics of the game. While a few may have liked it, the gameplay really suffered on that one. To quote a few :
Forgive me there, I haven't mentioned that for me gameplay includes those core features. No need to list them, I'll never question H6's ugliness.
Quote:
I believe Heroes is more than just a strategy game. Heroes has always been about diving the player into some universe, and while is a matter of taste whether one or another prefer the previous or the new one, is objective to say they differ. And they are more than “a few” who aren’t satisfied with the direction it has taken. This is fact. I deeply care about visuals because to me, is important to have a good looking army, and while good looking is again something completely subjective, we can all agree that most gamers with time have been used to certain standards, and that the ones used to cohere the Spider-cult seems to be very controversial.
On top of that, the models aren’t even new, way to serve on of the most popular faction for many hum. If Ubilimb really wants to share their vision, is in my opinion that reusing old, unpopular models is not in their interest, artistically speaking.
I do agree about it, but I think we should priorotize. As you said, "atmosphere" (let's call it so) is a matter of taste. There possbily can't be a situation where everyone remains satisfied. So I propose to be rational, push gameplay problems first and leave visuals to modders. They have more individual approach than devs.
But I agree on the models. Even if I understand why it's done and accept it, I still don't like it.
Quote:
You do have a fair point that Ubilimb shouldn’t need that much the feedback from community in order to make a game. It only shows the failure MMH6 really was, when devs start asking how to make a game, it means they have no clue how to make it themselves. Creators are usually arrogant about their art, and won’t let anyone interfere with it. Look how this whole business procedure results : both fans and developers are frustrated. Ones because they don’t accept the proposition, others because the proposition is being rejected.
That's one of the reasons why I'm growing more and more unsatisfied with OpenDev. I don't think it was done because "they don't know how to do a game" (what really defining key aspect of Heroes was discussed publicly?), they wanted to earn fans' love. But it comes with risks too - votings for examles. Actually, I disliked faction voting 'cos of how "fans" pushed their subjective variants forward (even with cheating). And because I lost all of them
Btw, I'll support sim turns and RMG if these 3 will come to the blog. In my book such features really matter. And it seams that #-taging really works.
Quote:
Well, “true fans” of the series as you call them will notice tiniest details of imperfection, denouncing a potential lack of passion during the process, while most players will purchase and thanks Ubisoft for it. There was a petition signed, and my signature is on it.
What tiniest details of imperfection? They're just reworking the original, no cuts/additions with the possibility of future add-on redoing as well.
To be honest, they never claimed that they will do something about H3's balance or else. Too risky to mess with "the icon".
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
But it's Ubisoft who decides to invest on highly detail models, to then use a pitiful scale in-game with an horrendous zoom so you can barely identify which is unit is each. Quite a paradox if you ask me.
Then again, I think the issue you're talking about is the art-style, not the quality of creature models (which is very high).
Yes, and they made a terrible mistake investing in graphics with H6 in the first place. Wait, what? You have problems with identifying creatures on the battlefield?!
I'm talking about everything. Art-style, models, textures, everything. Models are indeed good.
Storm-Giant said:
I've lost count of the times I entered a town, get enthralled by the beautiful music while enjoying every little detail of the townscreen. Heroes is a competitive game, alright, but it can be also be a relaxing time too.
Implying that Towns should be just a GUI is BS.
Really, every single moment entering a town?
Erm, no. I was talking about H5's 3D townscreens. I never said that townscreen should reduce to GUI, I'm satisfied with 2D. But over time you tend to not enjoy the beauty of the town, but just do your routine - build it.
Storm-Giant said:
Wow, you are really salty, aren't you?
No, I'm not. Tell me, did H3 came with all the addons simultaneously? So why do fans expect whole package?
Although on what I can agree is the price.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 04:15 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 16:17, 28 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Avirosb said:
They've already thrown money on an artist who was clearly more interested in the money than his art.
Actually, artworks for H7 is pretty good. Or I misunderstood you?
The town screens has a bunch of scaling issues for one, but I take it you've only looked at them 2-3 times?
Quote:
Why not. Dissatisfaction with Necro back at H6 era pales in comparison to what we have now. I even remember some people liked it (H6-Necro).
So because some people liked it, other people shouldn't be allowed to voice their dissatisfaction?
And of course there will be more dissent when they decide to straight-up reuse models.
Quote:
I really doubt they're so stupid as to make the same errors again and give hollow promises.
I wouldn't call them stupid if they did, after all it has no real bearing on the actual outcome.
People will still buy the game regardless.
Anyway, It is my opinion that one should judge a game based on its own merits and not that of the modding community.
Quote:
I say be thankful that H3 re edition ever came to light. They really had no need for this, it's mostly a gift.
A gift that happens to cost money.
And have you seen the Zydar portrait?
What used to be a vein is now a flame, apparently. Sloppy work 
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 04:19 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 16:32, 28 Jan 2015.
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about inferno, i remember something like consuming dragonblood crystals to stay in ashan for longer.. or stronger souls can push temselves harder to stay longer.. is this really counts as new invent/bend to lore? maybe this one is already exists in lore, or just hasnt mentioned yet in games?
and also past stories will be told in couincil, so there is no need for an eclipse, so again assuming of "they bend lore for inferno" isnt true.
i understand and agree that lore should not be obstacle, but that example given about inferno just seems like a wrong one.
edit: i just noticed dark-whisperer wrote about this.. lol. that guy, i never found him reasonable anyways.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 04:21 PM |
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cleglaw said:
about inferno, i remember something like comsuming dragonblood crystals to stay in ashan for longer.. or stronger souls can push temselves harder to stay longer.. is this really counts as new invent/bend to lore? maybe this one is already exists in lore, or just hasnt mentioned yet in games?
i understand and agree lore should not be obstacle, but that example given about inferno just seems like a wrong one.
That was the explanation provided during the poll if memory serves me right.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 04:26 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The town screens has a bunch of scaling issues for one, but I take it you've only looked at them 2-3 times?
We have separate thread for townscreens, where I voiced my opinion. I was referring to creature design 'cos we're mostly talking about creatures. H7's townscreens are fortscreens, I don't see towns in them.
Although arts of buildings themselves is very good.
Avirosb said:
So because some people liked it, other people shouldn't be allowed to voice their dissatisfaction?
And of course there will be more dissent when they decide to straight-up reuse models.
I never said "don't voice your dissatisfaction", I said "prioritize things". But I really don't get it when people start complaining about graphics. Its a matter of taste.
On the models I agree, as I said previously.
Avirosb said:
I wouldn't call them stupid if they did, after all it has no real bearing on the actual outcome.
People will still buy the game regardless.
Anyway, It is my opinion that one should judge a game based on its own merits and not that of the modding community.
They will lose face, really. Failing a second time in the row.
I agree with your opinion, but I don't think that such aspects as visuals (art-style) should be "judged". Some like it, some not.
Avirosb said:
A gift that happens to cost money.
And have you seen the Zydar portrait?
What used to be a vein is now a flame, apparently. Sloppy work
They can't work for nothing, can they?
I haven't seen it, but I'll take your word for it. Surely they could have failed a couple of times. But from the screenshots I see - pretty good job.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 28, 2015 04:29 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
No, I'm not. Tell me, did H3 came with all the addons simultaneously? So why do fans expect whole package?
Although on what I can agree is the price.
seriously now, you have to be kidding me with this one,
you don't think fans are within their rights to wonder why they couldn't be bothered to adapt addons developed 15 years ago for the HD edition?
people are justified to expect that the conversion mirrors the GoG version at the very least, now in 2015, never mind us having to warn they'll have no access to the millions of fan maps and mods out there if they actually spend money on this half-assed "gift"
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 28, 2015 04:32 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 16:37, 28 Jan 2015.
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Avirosb said:
cleglaw said:
about inferno, i remember something like comsuming dragonblood crystals to stay in ashan for longer.. or stronger souls can push temselves harder to stay longer.. is this really counts as new invent/bend to lore? maybe this one is already exists in lore, or just hasnt mentioned yet in games?
i understand and agree lore should not be obstacle, but that example given about inferno just seems like a wrong one.
That was the explanation provided during the poll if memory serves me right.
And what a crock of sh*t that was...
What ever happened to the good old demon invading your soul or human sacrifices to summon demons from H5 and DMoMM?
I really miss the old days when human sacrifices actually solved problems...
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 04:35 PM |
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fuChris said:
What ever happened to the good old demon invading your soul
dont know about sacrifices, but soul invading is still present. kaspar says that wizards trade their soul for demons secret knowladge and power.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 04:37 PM |
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verriker said:
seriously now, you have to be kidding me with this one,
Nope. They'll just sell add-ons later if HD edition becomes success.
That's how marketing works. They can't throw too much money on a project that has very little chance to become commercially succesful. So, no AB or SoD. But if HD will sell well, they'll redo addons and sell the as well. And then a "complete edition".
Sure, you'll be frustrated, angered or else. But Ubi is a company. It loves making money and hates losing money. But in reality, this whole HD-edition is a big sign of good will from them - it has all the chances to fail on the market and cause financial losses.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 28, 2015 04:40 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
I personally don't care if liches are skeletal or mummified. I just want better textures and coloring on them.
Same here, though personally the Vampire bugs me much more than the Lich. I strongly dislike Ashan Vamps
Sandro400 said:
Wait, what? You have problems with identifying creatures on the battlefield?!
I do.
Sandro400 said:
I'm talking about everything. Art-style, models, textures, everything. Models are indeed good.
I believe they could use a bit less detailed models but, more importantly, bigger scale (more iconic, huh).
Sandro400 said:
Really, every single moment entering a town?
Erm, no. I was talking about H5's 3D townscreens. I never said that townscreen should reduce to GUI, I'm satisfied with 2D. But over time you tend to not enjoy the beauty of the town, but just do your routine - build it.
Obviously not everytime. As I said, sometimes I'm just playing for beating the opponent, sometimes I just enjoy the game & art. H3 is probably the best example of this (thanks to its superb music & townscreen)
That's why I wish Ubi'd make better 2D townscreens, and also why I'm so overjoyed everytime they release a new Faction Theme on their soundcloud account.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 28, 2015 04:43 PM |
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cleglaw said:
fuChris said:
What ever happened to the good old demon invading your soul
dont know about sacrifices, but soul invading is still present. kaspar says that wizards trade their soul for demons secret knowladge and power.
If Chris is speaking about possesion, then that is not invasion of the soul, but invasion of the body, whereupon the more powerfull demon takes controll of the host body.
As far as soul-trade goes, that works a bit differently. When a Wizard would sell his soul for knowledge and power, that would result in his soul, upon his death, being sent to Sheogh and reïncarnating as an Incubus.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 04:46 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
I do.
Honestly - I'm surprised. Never had such problem.
Storm-Giant said:
I believe they could use a bit less detailed models but, more importantly, bigger scale (more iconic, huh).
This. Most of the times Ubi-Heroes arts and models are over-detailed.
Storm-Giant said:
That's why I wish Ubi'd make better 2D townscreens, and also why I'm so overjoyed everytime they release a new Faction Theme on their soundcloud account.
So true. Townscreens as they're now are better than H6, but not so much. I want actual towns.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted January 28, 2015 04:52 PM |
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cleglaw said:
about inferno, i remember something like consuming dragonblood crystals to stay in ashan for longer.. or stronger souls can push temselves harder to stay longer.. is this really counts as new invent/bend to lore? maybe this one is already exists in lore, or just hasnt mentioned yet in games?
I've never heard of this before voting so I believe that it was invented to allow inferno be one of playable races. It was thin and full of holes but it shows that lore can be changed when its needed.
I also agree with War-Overlord that incorporating skeletal liches into the lore is something that they just don't wanna do. Simple as that.
*edit @cleglaw
I'm glad to see that your behind still hurts from that whooping I gave you during Inferno voting.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
