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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 01:51 PM |
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The thing about Ashan's lore is that Ubi is making a big deal out of it.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:01 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The thing about Ashan's lore is that Ubi is making a big deal out of it.
Are they anymore? It was a thing during H6 yes, but now it seems a bit more level-headed. Is it a too big deal that they are sticking to their lich concept and the whole spider thing?
A setting has right to have its lore and have set thing according to it, not some raving nerdy lunatics.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 28, 2015 02:06 PM |
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Sorts said:
Well if Ashan is inconsistent what "Enroth" was? Has somebody been comparing MM7 and H3, games that take place on a same continent but you can make a long list of things that differ. There was not much lore in H2 but even the smaller pieces go almost ignored in MM6.
what do you mean? I don't remember any contradictions of the H2 story in MM6, unless you mean dumb issues like some creatures/heroes not reappearing
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 02:06 PM |
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And people have a right to make fun of silly lore, just saying.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:11 PM |
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TDL said:
I am slightly sad that the underlying problem in this whole discussion is how over time HOMM franchise turned more and more into a high fantasy one. If only they tried to switch it around... if we had a dark fantasy Homm, we'd have void necropolis and infernal demons wreaking havoc, humans trying to fend off the demons to no avail. There's no need to turn darkside 100%, but I'd rather see some more shades of grey...
i imagine a darker homm with dark messiah events(version of kha-beleth set free).
inferno becomes ashan/sheog hybrid. evolved faction. also constant wars going on world of ashan so some kind of post-apocalyptic feeling comes in. no more blood eclipse cliche, they become part of ashan.
no more one strong united haven empire, interesting stories and heroes born with it.
necropolis searches new ways to dwell all around in ashan, skeletal liches make comback, MN and spideropolis dies. figures like sandro takes bigger part in necro, void necropolis, old style necropolis may happen.
stronghold, goblins, orcs and alike starts raiding places, enslaving weak territories, and also building new homes for themselves in all around ashan.
sylvan, with all kinds of power in nature, evolves itself and tries to survive so it becomes much more then a elf dominated-isolated town.
realistic art style comes in to fit the mood.
 one can dream...
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:16 PM |
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verriker said:
Sorts said:
Well if Ashan is inconsistent what "Enroth" was? Has somebody been comparing MM7 and H3, games that take place on a same continent but you can make a long list of things that differ. There was not much lore in H2 but even the smaller pieces go almost ignored in MM6.
what do you mean? I don't remember any contradictions of the H2 story in MM6, unless you mean dumb issues like some creatures/heroes not reappearing
There are less between H2 and MM6 yes. One would be The Sorcersses guild and the city of Noraston being missed or replaced with druids and Silver Cove.
Might fall under creatures category, but there are comments that there are no elves in Enroth (stated by several NPCs), sho who or what were helping sorcersses, mercenaries from Jadame (a fan theory, because H1-H2 elves had darker skin).
But yeah, more minor things that i feel could have done better. Not the huge issues with Antagarich in H3/MM7.
As a bonus point the whole planet gets one, if you have ever read the topic in celestial heavens, where it becomes clear that you even cannot place Enroth Antagarich and Jadame on the same map without serius geographical issues.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 28, 2015 02:18 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:22, 28 Jan 2015.
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Sorts said:
Well if Ashan is inconsistent what "Enroth" was? Has somebody been comparing MM7 and H3, games that take place on a same continent but you can make a long list of things that differ. There was not much lore in H2 but even the smaller pieces go almost ignored in MM6.
And who's talking about that lore? I didn't find H1-3 lore over-the-top. It was your solid fantasy setting with some memorable characters (of course I don't mean to say the whole Xeen/Enroth lore was bad, but I didn't dwell into it that much, I didn't even play Might and Magic games so I'm not the one to comment it). Story-wise H4 was the strongest imo (even if those stories were kind of individual not your typical "everyone join to fight with Mordor" type of plots). But at least I cared about some characters in H3 (and definitely in H4). Ashan ones are meh to me...
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 02:25 PM |
bonus applied by OmegaDestroyer on 28 Jan 2015. |
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Btw guys, I’m really quite amazed by what’s happening right now with the “fanbase”. I don’t know how to name it, probably hypocrisy? Let me elaborate.
I really think that any developers of any Heroes of Might and Magic at any time will be victims of “damned if they do, damned if they don’t”. While developing Heroes, there’ll always be some small group of “die-hard” fans who will be always “stuck” in classic Heroes (I-III) and never accept changes. I can’t blame them, it’s the nostalgia, and that’s a powerful effect. I don’t know why I am not subject to it.
But do you guys remember the times of H6’s development? This forum’s usual audience hasn’t changed much from that time. Now, do you remember posts such as “why do they invest such money in the graphics, a strategy game can live without top-notch visuals! Better spend more money on gameplay features!” “Graphics don’t matter, give us great gameplay” Do you remember it? And H6 really threw too much money on visuals, as a result, it failed as a good game, despite selling well.
Now fans actually encourage them to throw money on visuals again. Repeating past mistakes which eventually crushed H6. Bravo fans! Suddenly visuals become as important as gameplay, suddenly you actually deeply care if Liches are skeletal or mummy-like. Why do you even care about visuals? That’s not what is important in a strategy game. And in my book I can’t name someone who cares so much about graphics “a M&M fan”. Why do you even care about visuals and try to convince devs make that stupid mistake again, when modders will change the whole visual look in, like, 2 weeks? But will modders add sim turns, RMG, additional (or improved) gameplay? I highly doubt it.
Mind you, the closest “ancestor” a Lich has in mythology is Koschei, which, well, never was depicted as skeletal anyway (on my memory). Just a piece if trivia. Also I guess everyone here knows from where Lich originated in fantasy? D&D, you’re right! And guess what – this is how a Lich is described there:
“A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.”
See, even there Liches aren’t completely skeletal. So a compromise exists. But why are “fans” so hateful towards new Liches? Because H2 and H3 had skeletal ones. Nostalgia, again. If you really like skeletal Liches, just wait ‘til the game’s release and re-work the textures. If H7 will have even half of H5’s modding possibilities, that can be done in a very short time.
Btw, you know what defines a Lich in a Heroes game in my book? Death cloud ability. I do prefer Liches being more rotten than what we have now, but without Death cloud it just feels not right. That’s more meaningful to me than Lich’s visual style.
Let me ask you a question. Do you really zoom in on the battlefield, viewing all your wonderful creatures and praising their beauty, or do you prefer to think about strategy? How many times entering a town you pause and say “What a beautiful town!”, huh? 1, 2, or maybe three? And then it just becomes a semi-automatic process of building the town though GUI. That was the case with H5’s townscreens, btw.
Now imagine some Ubi manager noticing all this fuss. Won’t he think “Wait, those fans are so obsessed with graphics! But the M&M team convinced me that gameplay is more important and the company should spend way more money on that. But look, these “fans” need only a good-looking strategy! Let’s make H8 with gorgeous graphics and irrelevant gameplay (but promise a classical Heroes title) and it still will sell well! Ahahah I’m genius!!!” You really want that to happen? If no, stop complaining about graphics and ask devs about sim turns, RMG, modding tools and other important things. #GUST, #GURMG!!!
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 28, 2015 02:34 PM |
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cleglaw said:
necropolis searches new ways to dwell all around in ashan, skeletal liches make comback, MN and spideropolis dies. figures like sandro takes bigger part in necro, void necropolis, old style necropolis may happen.
The problem with that is fact that Sandro and Markal, only two who may have had any connections with Void in Necropolis after Heroes VII, are dead (Sandro was destroyed by Cyrus and his soul fleed, possibly to different dimension, Markal was killed by Zehir) and during times of Dark Messiah views of Arantir, zealous fanatic, are probably most common after his rise to power, so there wouldn't be that big change of an attitude within Necropolis but there may be a change of main enemy. Up to Arantir, Wizards (and Nethermancers) were their main antagonists. However, during Arantir's era demons became threat no. 1 and their mission is to eradicate demons completely from surface of Ashan. This may somehow imply new look of their creatures - something more anti-demonic than Egyptian. How this may be understood? I have no clue but this might be new source of inspiration for Necro.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:36 PM |
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@ Sandro400 
Very good points.
HoMM series has probably the most "toxic" and hypocritical fanbase out there (and tbh honest i would classify myselt under the toxic category)
Gameplay impovements are alot more important thing here than the whole necropolis issue. And should be the focus of fanbases demands. Not ragewhining.
And i agree, it too want to see the death cloud ability back.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:37 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 14:40, 28 Jan 2015.
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its not demanding super high quality in graphics, its expecting new units for a new game. this is basic, im sorry but its not also okay to expect same units with exact same looks. gameplay matters of course but its not %100 gameplay and %0 visuals, in fact, as a M&M fan, i liked h3 mostly because of its atmosphere(perfect visual+music) and fast gameplay... and cant even play h5 because of its atmosphere(hated those anime-ish warcraft-ish style+ repeating music themes). so visuals have a important part too.
and i never see this is "do this, because this is more important". we need both gameplay and atmosphere. budget is low? sorry i really rather not to get a new game if it will done under serious budget problems that will cause gameplay to suck, or atmospher to suck, or both to suck. this is not hypocrasy.
those liches and arthas vampires ruin M&M atmosphere.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 28, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Okay, it is time to buy some more jelly beans (I like them more than popcorn).
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2015 02:42 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
That's mainly because when people speak about Heroes3 being perfect, they really mean Heroes3 with all of its bells and whistles after two expansions and some fanmade bug fixes to glaring issues that never got resolved before Heroes3 was abandoned (due to 3DO/NWC's demise).
What they gave us is just the base version.
But I have high hopes that they will polish it further if it proves to be a commercial success.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 28, 2015 02:43 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Okay, it is time to buy some more jelly beans (I like them more than popcorn).
I prefer Cashews myself.
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:45 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
The problem with that is fact that Sandro and Markal, only two who may have had any connections with Void in Necropolis after Heroes VII, are dead (Sandro was destroyed by Cyrus and his soul fleed, possibly to different dimension,
Well there are hints that Sandro might return. So he isn't gone yet (in the future).
I get that many people want the "horror necropolis." But i personally prefer the grayer one. Good necromancers are abit of strecth (but can happen.
In the end the whole skeletal vs fleshy liches, aristocratic vs nosferatu vampires, gothic vs egypto-mesopotamian style, gray or horror necropolis comes down to preference not what is the true only way.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 28, 2015 02:55 PM |
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Sorts said:
I'm not sure I remember that mention about there being no elves, (though I take your word for it,)
but at least as far as I remember, Noraston was out on a distant island where Lord Halton had to sail to,
although yeah it would actually make sense for Silver Cove and Noraston to be one and the same, with the druids there
as for putting them on a map, I remember that thread, what's the issue again? Antagarich is southeast of Enroth and Jadame is due west, that doesn't seem to be disputed by anyone?
I agree there is some weird crap going on in Antagarich because of different writers (though Ashan is already waaay worse lol)
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 28, 2015 03:04 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:05, 28 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
Now fans actually encourage them to throw money on visuals again.
They've already thrown money on an artist who was clearly more interested in the money than his art.
Quote:
suddenly you actually deeply care if Liches are skeletal or mummy-like.
What's with the "Suddenly" all of a sudden? Come now.
Quote:
Why do you even care about visuals and try to convince devs make that stupid mistake again, when modders will change the whole visual look in, like, 2 weeks?
That remains to be seen now, doesn't it?
Quote:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
No Armageddon's Blade or Shadow of Death support? Puh-lease.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 03:11 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Quote:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD. Oh, for years “true fans of the series” screamed “we don’t need your new Heroes, you don’t know how to do it, just redo H3, it was perfection made flesh! “ Oh, and look, they did. Where’re all those “true fans of the series”, why aren’t they jumping off the cliff with happiness and delight? Their DREAM came true! I guess there’re just too many “false fans” out there.
No Armageddon's Blade or Shadow of Death support? Puh-lease.
this why i wont buy h3 hd, not even mentioning high price.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 28, 2015 03:14 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:55, 28 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
While developing Heroes, there’ll always be some small group of “die-hard” fans who will be always “stuck” in classic Heroes (I-III).
I can’t blame them, it’s the nostalgia, and that’s a powerful effect.
I will answer this as I am part of the angry mob regarding current Necropolis design. I’m not “stuck” in classic heroes. I am firmly and fairly convinced that Ubisoft has gone down the wrong path ever since they took the franchise. I am not spitting on everything they are doing, I feel the need to repeat I love Academy and underline my all time favorite factions in Heroes III is Tower. I even acknowledged more than once that I like very much that change. My personal opinion about the Mage for instance. Putting him on a flying carpet is the best move done in MMH7 so far, regarding the Heroes atmosphere from which you seem to deny its importance.
I loved features like the skillwheel system introduced in Heroes V. There is a lot of things I like in post-NWC era and I honestly believe I have a right to criticize which are my dislikes as well. So please step back a little with the nostalgia accusation which is just an easy and inaccurate statement.
Quote:
Graphics don’t matter, give us great gameplay” Do you remember it?
While I personally never agreed with such statement (even if at first glance I liked homm6 graphics, but that didn’t last long), I mostly remember people complaining about removing core mechanics of the game. While a few may have liked it, the gameplay really suffered on that one. To quote a few :
- Exclusive online content
- Reduction of resources from 7 to 4
- Suppression of Mage Guilds
- Suppression of most adventure dwellings
- Suppression of weeks of creatures
- Centralized creature pools between castles and dwellings
- Introduction of Town Portal as a building and restricting its use to its construction only.
- Suppression of movement penalty for landing/boarding
- Non-random skill system
- Introduction of 3 tier creatures = my level 1 creature one has same strength as my level 3 one and my level 4 has same strength as level 6 one
- Giving extra swift speed to tier 1 creatures
- Artifacts trivialized (need Dynasty weapon, only available online)
Again, maybe some people liked it better, it doesn’t change the fact that list doesn’t reflect much a Heroes game anymore. I'm all for improvement, not for downgrade (as NVIDIA drivers).
Quote:
Why do you even care about visuals? That’s not what is important in a strategy game.
I believe Heroes is more than just a strategy game. Heroes has always been about diving the player into some universe, and while is a matter of taste whether one or another prefer the previous or the new one, is objective to say they differ. And they are more than “a few” who aren’t satisfied with the direction it has taken. This is fact. I deeply care about visuals because to me, is important to have a good looking army, and while good looking is again something completely subjective, we can all agree that most gamers with time have been used to certain standards, and that the ones used to cohere the Spider-cult seems to be very controversial.
On top of that, the models aren’t even new, way to serve one of the most popular faction for many hum. If Ubilimb really wants to share their vision, is in my opinion that reusing old, unpopular models is not in their interest, artistically speaking.
Quote:
Do you really zoom in on the battlefield, viewing all your wonderful creatures and praising their beauty, or do you prefer to think about strategy?
This would call for the discussion made in that thread.
Dark-Whisperer said:
Did any of you really missed a creature on combat map because you simply didn't see it? Did you ever misplayed because of that? I say that all the talk about visibility in combat is nonsense.
Galaad said:
I didn’t intend to use the word “visibility” as “recognizable”, I used it as how good you can see the creatures.
With 3D creatures, I need to zoom in if I want to admire its artistic beauty. Maybe is because I am not a competitive player, to me being able to fully enjoy the artistic design of my creature is an important part of the game. During a battle, I focus on tactics of course -I want to stand victorious- but I also look at my creatures, at the AI’s creatures, at the battlefield’s aesthetics, have a smoke, relax and go on. I just love to see the Liches in action on top of the arrow towers, when they shoot, their movement, their expression, how the whole animation is done. I just love to see how my Wyvern Monarchs are beating their rotten wings when I move them in order to spread their dreadful poison, which I hope to see happening, due to the odds. Maybe is part of the reason why I enjoyed Putrid Lamasu, we could at least see some wings lol. My sensor brings me the Black Dragons animation in MMH6, which was, again according to my feelings, plain ridiculous.
What is objective, is that we will allegedly never see the animated Justicar as clear in game than on Ubi’s blog.
You are absolutely right pointing out those elements don’t bother one if playing purely from a mechanical point of view ; but from an aesthetic perspective, they do matter. If one for a reason or another, dislikes 2D, is precisely because he cares about aesthetics. In 3D, in order to see the full battlefield, you need to zoom out to the point where it goes no further than how you can distinguish the units from themselves.
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Wait, those fans are so obsessed with graphics! But the M&M team convinced me that gameplay is more important and the company should spend way more money on that.
You do have a fair point that Ubilimb shouldn’t need that much the feedback from community in order to make a game. It only shows the failure MMH6 really was, when Ubisoft starts asking how to make a game, it means they have no clue how to make it themselves. Creators are usually arrogant about their art, and won’t let anyone interfere with it. Look how this whole business procedure results : both fans and developers are frustrated. Ones because they don’t accept the proposition, others because the proposition is being rejected.
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If no, stop complaining about graphics and ask devs about sim turns, RMG, modding tools and other important things. #GUST, #GURMG!!!
I would upvote these.
Quote:
P.S.: on a side-note, a little remark about H3 HD.
Well, “true fans” of the series as you call them will notice tiniest details of imperfection, denouncing a potential lack of passion during the process, while most players will purchase and thanks Ubisoft for it. There was a petition signed, and my signature is on it.
Ps. I'm off to work, if you reply I will reply again later in the night.
____________
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shadowdust
Hired Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 03:16 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Well there are hints that Sandro might return. So he isn't gone yet (in the future).
I get that many people want the "horror necropolis." But i personally prefer the grayer one. Good necromancers are abit of strecth (but can happen.
In the end the whole skeletal vs fleshy liches, aristocratic vs nosferatu vampires, gothic vs egypto-mesopotamian style, gray or horror necropolis comes down to preference not what is the true only way.
There is no hint, they just leave a open door in case they want him back, if not they can drop him up completely. Or maybe they don't want to complete destroy fan's favorite character.
I prefer the gray necro too, but even though they're grey, their moral is pretty mess up, which I like.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
