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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 27, 2015 10:08 PM |
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War-Overlord Yes, you did say for the sake of argument, but your 5th way is very good and it might happen. Just one detail (not removing vampires) - and we have totally logical and well-thought explanation.
Now, if only all this discussion could reach IP's ears...
P.S.: actually, people of the peninsula never thought of Agyn as annexed. Even that movement in Karthal which started after H6 didn't want secession, and Morgan was welcomed exactly because he was directly under Empress orders, not under Dukes who didn't cared about people.
P.P.S: and yeah, you're right 'bout MN, they hid her in Heresh even back in H6.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 27, 2015 10:10 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.
Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 10:19 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Pawek_13 said:
@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.
Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.
I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 27, 2015 10:28 PM |
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Or move on to a timeline where skull-faced nethermancers are more popular or the campaign's hero is a champion of the void. Skull liches in the lineup, fleshy liches as neutrals or reserved for his opponents. Problem solved..
Zombiefied liches are just meh :/
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 27, 2015 10:31 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Pawek_13 said:
@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.
Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.
I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.
Well, the first step is to introduce them, second to establish a story around them, and third to play with them.  I understand that we would have to wait for H8, but if something like that is possible, shouldn't we(Erwan) go for it?
I am hopeful that something can be done about that since we don't know anything about Shantiri Liches at this moment. Or at least I do not know...
Edit: Even without Shantiri Liches/necromancers, the events of H6:SoD would be enough to encourage me to find another way for my undeath. Mother Namtaru is simply a too big a weakness for me to just rely on her well-being for my survival. Unlike the spider cult, NWC necro/liches are in advantage since they are independent in their necromancy.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 27, 2015 10:32 PM |
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Maybe in the future, when Might and Magic lore won't be written by the same people as today, we will get a Void Necropolis
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 27, 2015 10:33 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Pawek_13 said:
@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.
Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.
I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.
Well, the first step is to introduce them, second to establish a story around them, and third to play with them. I understand that we would have to wait for H8, but if something like that is possible, shouldn't we(Erwan) go for it?
I am hopeful that something can be done about that since we don't know anything about Shantiri Liches at this moment. Or at least I do not know...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 27, 2015 10:34 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
Pawek_13 said:
@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII.
Not necessarily. In Heroes 8 we could explore why after all these (900?) years we did not heard anything about Shantiri necromancers (it could be set between H7 and H5), or why did they started appearing in some regions of the world - no need to be Heresh.
I think the problem Pawek was referring to was that we'd have to wait untill Heroes 8.
Also, Marzhin mentioned that the Shantiri Liches would not be part of Necropolis, but neutral. Being bought off seems a very cheap way of getting around that.
Lastly, that all rests on the supposition that these Shantiri Liches have a different way of being undead.
Well, the first step is to introduce them, second to establish a story around them, and third to play with them. I understand that we would have to wait for H8, but if something like that is possible, shouldn't we(Erwan) go for it?
I am hopeful that something can be done about that since we don't know anything about Shantiri Liches at this moment. Or at least I do not know...
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 27, 2015 10:36 PM |
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Elvin said:
Or move on to a timeline where skull-faced nethermancers are more popular or the campaign's hero is a champion of the void. Skull liches in the lineup, fleshy liches as neutrals or reserved for his opponents. Problem solved..
Zombiefied liches are just meh :/
Or, just care less about the damn lore and make units that actually look good instead of tying onself on hands and feet by stupid facts that in the end don't matter for gameplay at all.
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What will happen now?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 27, 2015 10:41 PM |
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Elvin said:
Zombiefied liches are just meh :/
Even Pious and the Horned King?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 10:41 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Well, the first step is to introduce them, second to establish a story around them, and third to play with them. I understand that we would have to wait for H8, but if something like that is possible, shouldn't we(Erwan) go for it?
I am hopeful that something can be done about that since we don't know anything about Shantiri Liches at this moment. Or at least I do not know...
It's not us that need convincing. But the people who actually decide such things.
alcibiades said:
Or, just care less about the damn lore and make units that actually look good instead of tying onself on hands and feet by stupid facts that in the end don't matter for gameplay at all.
Problem is that the people who make the decisions do care about the lore and they care about the lore so much more than people on the fora.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 27, 2015 10:44 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Problem is that the people who make the decisions do care about the lore and they care about the lore so much more than people on the fora.
Exactly, which is why I want to send the message: Care less about the stupid lore and care more about the things that actually add to the game experience - gameplay and visuals.
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What will happen now?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 10:49 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Exactly, which is why I want to send the message: Care less about the stupid lore and care more about the things that actually add to the game experience - gameplay and visuals.
A message that has been sent very often since Heroes 5/6. I have little doubt they are aware of the sentiment. And I think it shows how much is cared about fans not caring, I.E. disliking, about the lore.
But as I stated before, I like your optimism.
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 11:15 PM |
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Lol
So now they promise to change a couple of Necro-units? Well expect them to turn them green again, instead of purple, that is it.
Arthas and Lichie the Lich will remain almost the same!
I hope so, the more people complain about Ashan, the better, the earlier they sell the franchise to another compagnie!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 27, 2015 11:19 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Or, just care less about the damn lore (…
They should. While creating their M&M games, NWC was always aware of the lore not to cause any mess in the game's plot. This was also why Greg Fulton was extremely disappointed when Forge was scrapped - it was a consistent part of the former lore and deleting it had serious repercussions for the game and later development (after Fulton stopped working in NWC, game designers had serious problems with lore consistency in SoD's plot). Lack of lore knowledge was also one of key factors while reseting the whole universe in Heroes IV. I consider Spider cult Necropolis to be somehow similar to the Forge case. It may be controversial but still, it is a consistent part of the lore in Ashan and not to mess things up it should be left with all of its consequences just for the sake of good organization of the world.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 11:24 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:44, 28 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
Let's tackle the easier problem first. According to the Compendium, Namtaru Venom already relieves the embiber of the burdens of flesh. So there is no added benefit there.
You seem to have misunderstood, I was just restating that part. The "added benefit" can be found in the part that you completely ignored, let me show you:
Stevie said:
[lore]
This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh and exposes it more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.
[/lore]
Then:
War-overlord said:
Second, the channeling of magic is done in four ways.
Through Divine favor, which is out of the question here.
You managed to exclude the right one from the very beginning. The point of my idea is quite Sar-Elam-esque actually, even if it's not done through meditation but through Necromancy and at a smaller scale. Getting closer to death -> getting closer to the spirit world -> getting closer to Asha's conscience, the one that they are even worshiping -> getting Asha's favor -> more power.
There is no contradiction with the lore, and the novel part - spirit world affinity - not only does it not bend anything but it works and for a good cause: Skeletal Liches.
Edit: Did I mention Belketh, the one who discovered Necromancy, was a disciple of Sar-Shazzar who in turn was a Disciple of Sar-Elam who traveled through the spirit world to reach Asha's conscience? It connects so many dots that it's practically the best explanation. Liches lose their flesh and become more receptive to the spirit world in their state of undeath, receiving the favor of Asha which they happen to even worship. It's just perfect.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 27, 2015 11:37 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 23:38, 27 Jan 2015.
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The one thing that seems to be underlying this issue is that the Necromancers form a united front, all together under the Mother Namtaru. But why would they be so cooperative to begin with?
I could imagine jealousy and downright powerplay between various Necromancers and subfactions within the Spider Cult, causing friction and perhaps even outright rebellion and civil war among the Necromancers. This conflict causes a significant portion of the Liches to be cut off from the very source that preserves them: Namtaru's blood.
Following this predicament, they're desperately searching for an alternative (which may very well be Void magic, as it seems to be the only viable alternative allowed by the lore as it is now), which they eventually find before it's too late. Having become (largely) independent of the Mother Namtaru's venom, they also do not change into Vampires anymore, but rather slowly wither away until nothing more but a skeletal husk remains.
Eventually the renegades are cornered and destroyed, but the Liches of the Spider Cult realise that their rebellious brethren were not as vulnerable anymore as they themselves are (also keeping in mind the events that were triggered by Sandro, as he was attempting to erase the Mother Namtaru from history), so overtime they've started to adopt the practices of the rebels, to a somewhat lesser degree. While initially frowned upon, it is eventually incorporated and commonly accepted into the Spider Cult to remove a vulnerability.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 11:46 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:50, 27 Jan 2015.
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Maurice said:
(which may very well be Void magic, as it seems to be the only viable alternative allowed by the lore as it is now)
There is an idea even more friendly than the Void.
Make liches undergo Moander's process. Much more friendly with the Necropolis we have right now. Void is an alternative that is more far fetched because of its context (Nethermancers are universally hated). Shantiri liches is not even viable at this point.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted January 27, 2015 11:49 PM |
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There will definitely be some classical heroes (their Ashan incarnations, at least) in Heroes 7.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 27, 2015 11:51 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 23:53, 27 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
The mixture of the two venoms had a devastating effect on his body, searing his skin and withering his flesh. Transformed into an Undead, he now looked like a raggedy corpse, a walking skeleton [...]
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
