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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 27, 2015 08:50 PM |
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If you can give four Gems and one QP to Ghost he will give you a Meroe.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 08:56 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Maybe because she's Human?
Well, as she was originally a sorceress who became a druid, so her as a human (wizard?) joining the elves (as druid) would be a fitting homage imo.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Galaad said:
What could be a plausible way to (re)introduce skeletal liches, without disturbing the lore.
Easiest way: Pull a Heroes4 or find another way to introduce a new universe, that allows you to alter every rule, especially the ones you don't like. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high, if only for the fact that you'd have to wait at least another cycle of games before this is concievable. And there is the case of convincing the M&M-team, especially Erwan.
Way 2: Find a way to cut off Namtaru-venom. This would force the undead to invent new ways of remaining undead. Which in turn, Gods willing, could introduce more decayed undead. Likelyhood of that happening = Even less. When killed by someone else Because this is exactly what was tried in Shades. It would be exceptionally stupid to make such a mistake again being Necromancers, which makes for very bad storytelling. Say what you want, but they're not bad storytellers on purpose. When the Mother Namtaru and the Fate Spinners all die of "natural causes", it is equally unlikely because that would require coming up with a multiple stage explaination, as you would first have to explain what causes the extinction, which probably needs another explaination. For example, if you say that the Namtarus all died of sickness, you'll have to explain the sickness as well, and why it works especially now and not in all the ages before, etc. That sort of multistage explainations are especially prone to convolutedness and contrivance.
Way 3: Introduce Nethermancer-Necropolis, Sandro became what he is, by having some Nethermancy go bad on him. (Which coincidently is exactly why Kaspar is missing half his face as well) From what I can tell, Nethermancy is finnicky and accidentprone. The more people dabble in that, the more it will go wrong. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high. The Cult of the Void is small and underground. It would be contradictory to have them be a force capable of open warfare.
Way 4: Find a way to introduce the necessity including Manticore Venom, as Stevie suggests. Likelyhood of that happening = Very unlikely. As I tried explain before, this requires coming up with a reason to deliberately make the ritual go wrong for reasons. That is exceptionally hard, because you are forcing contrivance here. You hate them for their bad and contrived storytelling, but you invite bad and contrived storytelling when it suits your purpose.
Way 5: Find a way to cut Vampires out of the equation. Likelyhood of that happening = Not very high. That would mean cutting out an iconic unit. But for the sake of argument, let's explore the possibility. Lichdom is a stage of undeath, according to the lore. Vampirism is the next. As a rule, Liches strive to become Vampires. While Liches, they continue to age without praticularly decaying. Very old (Arch)Liches are little more than shrivelled skin streched over bones. (Not exactly skeletons, but possibly close) When cut off of the ability to become Vampires, Liches can do little else than continue aging. But like I said, that would require you do something about Vampires first.
That's all I can come up with.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 27, 2015 08:59 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
this being a legitimate reason for not having Gem is my largest problem with this universe. Bend a rules a bit, please!
well Ashan is filled with racist bigots, and we have to remain consistent with the Ashan universe under pain of... more retcons lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 27, 2015 09:04 PM |
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verriker said:
well Ashan is filled with racist bigots, and we have to remain consistent with the Ashan universe under pain of... more retcons lol
i don't know how to feel: amused by the joke or depressed because it's true.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 09:14 PM |
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People, you misinterpretted my Maybe a little. It was not passive agression, but me thinking of a possible reason why I didn't consider Gem.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 09:16 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
verriker said:
well Ashan is filled with racist bigots, and we have to remain consistent with the Ashan universe under pain of... more retcons lol
i don't know how to feel: amused by the joke or depressed because it's true.
It's not that bad. Numerous beastmen have found a new home in several different factions and some have even adopted a new race as their main citizen. Besides, if you've played MMX you would know that the holy empire is full of elves, dwarves, nagas and the occasional orc tribe.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 09:19 PM |
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Steyn said:
It's not that bad. Numerous beastmen have found a new home in several different factions and some have even adopted a new race as their main citizen. Besides, if you've played MMX you would know that the holy empire is full of elves, dwarves, nagas and the occasional orc tribe.
Karthall is a bit of a special case. It was only annexed by the empire during the events of Heroes 6 and even in M&MX, it's a semi-independant protectorate. Somewhat later, Karthall becomes independant again. Karthall is not an exemplary region of the Empire.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 27, 2015 09:21 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Way 5: Find a way to cut Vampires out of the equation. <...>
But like I said, that would require you do something about Vampires first.
There's no need for such drastic changes.
In DoC they introduced "Eternal" branch of the Necropolis - disciples, apprentices, scholars, mentors etc. They're all (except for Archon, that's another story) living humans, apparently something like "eternal students" who fail their exams and are not allowed to drink the Spider venom. So they remain living, not recieving the status of Undead.
Vampires are "elite from the elite". I think there is a high probability that not all Archliches are allowed to become Vampires and remain in their lich state. Kaspar, for example, is a lich for roughly 300 years and 99% that he's an Archlich.
Now, bend the visuals a little, leave Liches as they are and make Archliches like half-skeleton half-mummy as you said and we got a compromise.
Now surely Kaspar looked well before his experiment, but he may have used some of his medicine to fight aging or something along those lines.
P.S.: btw, Karthal was not annexed, it was Empire's protectorate for centuries.
kiryu133 - why you want to bend already bended rules? Factions in Ashan are pretty much international, look at tavern Heroes of H6.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 21:24, 27 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
Karthall is a bit of a special case. It was only annexed by the empire during the events of Heroes 6 and even in M&MX, it's a semi-independant protectorate. Somewhat later, Karthall becomes independant again. Karthall is not an exemplary region of the Empire.
But does that apply to the whole agyn peninsula? As i recall, Seahaven was also full with them.
Also it does show that the different races can live together in harmony.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 09:23 PM |
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Sandro: I did say Quote:
for the sake of argument
Steyn] said:
But does that apply to the whole agyn peninsula?
Yes. Karthall is the closest thing the Agyn Peninsula has to a capitol. I was refering to the whole region, though in my effort of delivering a fast reply, I forgot what the region was called.
Edit: It may have been an Imperial Protectorate for centuries, the fact that after the events of Heroes 6, they lost effective home rule and were now actually governed by the Imperial Governor, made it feel like an Imperial Annexation by the people living there.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 27, 2015 09:38 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:39, 27 Jan 2015.
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War-overlord said:
That's all I can come up with.
Well that's already something. Thank you.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 09:48 PM |
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Maybe with the extensive growth of the necromantic order namtaru venom was in such high demand another means of making liches was needed? Although with the purge by the wizards i guess there aren't that many necromancers 
Maybe the wizards started hunting down namtarus during their war with the necromancers, thus making the venom a very rare commodity...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 09:53 PM |
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Steyn said:
Maybe the wizards started hunting down namtarus during their war with the necromancers, thus making the venom a very rare commodity...
As I said, it's not the first time someone tried to target the Namtaru in order to get at the Necromancers. If they were prudent, as soon as there was any sign of them being persecuted, the Necromancers would've brought the very supply of their immortality to safety.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:02, 27 Jan 2015.
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[lore]
After Moander was received among the Necropolis ranks, House Eterna began investigating the incident that led to his peculiar appearance. With decades of research and experimentation they discovered that adding Manticore venom to Namtaru Venom creates a new and more powerful mixture with very interesting effects. As the subject drinks it, the mixture starts spreading through the blood, reaching every corner of the body. After a period of being maintained by the embalming effect of the Namtaru venom, the Manticore venom starts to take effect and dissolve the organs and the flesh from the subject's bones. This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh and exposes it more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.
[/lore]
What you achieve:
- connect it with a precedent, so 100% lore friendly;
- depart from the connection between Lich and Vampire, which is totally stupid and has no relevance. You can become a vampire without needing to be a lich, for example through the Kiss of the Spider Goddess ritual (Ornella, Giovanni), another precedent in the series, even though it's not chronological, but it still proves it's possible. Actually the Heroes 6 explanation for the Vampire also includes a ritual. They can work from there;
- provide a persuasive reason for them to undergo this new transition - more power;
- have perfectly well explained Skeletal Liches in Ashan.
Totally possible.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted January 27, 2015 09:54 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 21:56, 27 Jan 2015.
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Bah! Why not just have them smoke crack dragonblood crystals. They had no problem explaining everything else with that stupid logic.
Liches already look like people on crack either way...even though they only dropped acid until now.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted January 27, 2015 09:55 PM |
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Well, you can reintroduce skeletal liches by introducing Shantiri liches. I think Marzhin mentioned them in one of his posts. For example, the necromancer's weakness of being too dependant of Mother Namtaru and her venom (+ Shades of darkness H6 Necro story) has forced many liches, vampires, humans and any other race (interested in undeath) to search for a new way to become undead and to preserve their undeath. Eventually, a group of necromancers managed to find one or several Shantiri liches who shared their knowledge (for a price) - they might reveal something new about Asha, which strengthens their resolve to break their connection to Mother Namtaru. Throughout centuries she became less important, and less guarded as well. Some adventurers ended up killing her, and with her death Namtaru spiders disappeared eventually.
However you can also include Shantiri liches in another way. Let's just say that they have a purer knowledge/magic about necromancy (purer undeath) than the spider cult (since they do not depend on someone else for their undeath - they depend on their own knowledge and magic, but also because they were the first to become undead). Shantiri liches/necromancers could be more powerful than the spider cult necromancers. If that is the case they could look upon them as if they were the 'lesser undead' or even 'children' in comparison of their knowledge and power. They could even loath spider cult liches for being satisfied with such a filthy/impure/imperfect/lesser form of undeath - which could lead to war or maybe it can occur after the Dark Messiah, where shantiri necromancers are helping necropolis faction to survive in demon-filled apocalyptical world. This could also be a good opportunity to learn something more about Shantiri culture, but also to learn about the old Shantiri necromancers, who could maybe worship Asha, but also use void (thus being more skeletal), or perhaps they could use something else.
EDIT: Erwan would never allow this, but maybe some necromancers from NWC universe passed through the void (when escaping cataclysim of armageddon H3 -> H4), and appeared in Ashan. They could also spread a different form of necromancy or the two branches of necromancy could combine. Again, I am establishing this on another Marzhin's post:
My "unofficial" explanation is that Ashan and the Ancient Universe exist on opposite edges of the Void. The Ancient Universe is a universe where science explains everything, even magic, while Ashan is the opposite. Yet links and passages exist between the two universes, and characters are mirrored too. It's like the yin and yang of the Might & Magic franchise as a whole
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 27, 2015 10:00 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 22:05, 27 Jan 2015.
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@Sleeping_Sun
This is a really good idea, yet again they have to finally move forward in timeline and this may happen in Heroes VIII. However, there is one aspect of it that bothers me - as old as fantasy genre cliché that ancient civilizations have more extensive knowledge than the current ones. Seriously, why? Why nearly in every famtasy storythere has to be an apocalypse that resets the whole collected wisdom?! 
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted January 27, 2015 10:02 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 22:08, 27 Jan 2015.
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@Sleeping_Sun
@Pawek_13
Good question indeed
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 27, 2015 10:06 PM |
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Stevie said:
[lore] This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh, exposing its user more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.[/lore]Totally possible.
Except it does not work that way.
That requires the whole laws of magic to be rewritten and it has another major flaw of introducing something new that was already there.
Let's tackle the easier problem first. According to the Compendium, Namtaru Venom already relieves the embiber of the burdens of flesh. So there is no added benefit there.
Second, the channeling of magic is done in four ways.
Through Divine favor, which is out of the question here.
By domininating elemental spirits, which what wizards do, mostly, but that's not the case here either.
Through tapping into the essence of Chaos, again out of the question, no Necromancer would let himself in with that.
Or through tearing the Veil and letting it's effects seep into the physical realm. Which seems to be what your suggesting. However, you should know that such things can only be done in two ways. 1: Through Nethermancy, but that would discard the need for the Manticore Venom. Or through Shamanism, which only Orcs can preform, due to their chaos-infused blood and the spilling thereof.
So the proposed effects of your theory clash with the lore already in place. Thus defeating your purpose of not clashing with the lore.
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