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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2015 11:53 PM |
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 12:03 AM |
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Maurice said:
The one thing that seems to be underlying this issue is that the Necromancers form a united front, all together under the Mother Namtaru. But why would they be so cooperative to begin with?
I could imagine jealousy and downright powerplay between various Necromancers and subfactions within the Spider Cult, causing friction and perhaps even outright rebellion and civil war among the Necromancers. This conflict causes a significant portion of the Liches to be cut off from the very source that preserves them: Namtaru's blood.
Actually, they don't. There're religious fanatics of MN and direct followers of Belketh. He's still very respected by Necromancers but he doesn't pray to Asha or MN. Plus there already was a secession with Sandro.
Adn again, actually that happened. Miranda from H6, for example. Political intrigues during Heroes Online storyline (rivalries between members of the inner circle of Necro). But what keeps them in check is MN herself.
Once she arrived, Necro slowly became more fanatics than wizards. Belketh was wise enough to not dispute with the Avatar of Asha and gave up leadership, but still retained great power within the cult (mainly because he's the founder of the Order). Though if he had stood against MN, it most likely would've been resulted in schism between Necro, but he chose to not provoke her.
And when she arrived she exposed Sandro as the Netherlord. Mainly it was her who ruined his sharade. And only thanks to Belketh he was just banished. Then for a while she kept them all united, though some like Miranda tried to climd political ladder nonetheless.
Now after second war with the wizards necro are beaten, their kingdom shattered. We don't know if MN is alive or no, she was not present during Clash of Heroes or H5. And look, when she's is supposedly not present, Necromancers form their individual little kingdoms in Heresh (Giovanni and others). Ludmilla tried to unite them, but failed hard. Markal pushed his own goals without even thinking about Mother Namtaru.
Only when Arantir - another religious fanatic - came, did Necro unite again. And in Dark Messiah we again have Namtarus.
That makes me think that after war with wizards MN turned dormant and was hidden somewhere. Without her to keep Necro united, they scattered and formed individual fiefdoms. But Arantir maybe found MN and with her help reunited Heresh under his rule and revived Spider Cult (H5 necros didn't even remotely thought about religion).
Wow, that took me long. Sorry for the wall of text.
P.S.: oh and yes, there was a brief moment when Sandro apparently took control of Heresh. Iirc, after CoH and until his death.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted January 28, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Stevie said:
Point being?
Primo - he was poisoned, he didn't take the venom of Manticore by his own will.
Secondo - it is pointed out that the remains of his corpse are in tragic state and this may create some negative consequences for him
Tercero - his whole body was destroyed, in Ashan if liches had some kind of bone uncovered, it was only their skull, not their whole body.
Quarto - such change is painful and dangerous - what if dose of Namtaru's venom isn't enough?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2015 12:10 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 00:10, 28 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Wow, that took me long. Sorry for the wall of text.
Lol. But isn't the wall of text contradicting the very lines you started your essay with? You claim there was no rebellion and then you continue to relate the story of how the whole faction fell apart  . Also, with the Mother Namtaru gone from the picture (wherever she went), Liches are in an immediate predicament - exactly the sort of situation that might force them to look for alternatives to the Namtaru's Blood to remain Undead for a while longer  .
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 12:15 AM |
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Maurice said:
Lol. But isn't the wall of text contradicting the very lines you started your essay with? You claim there was no rebellion and then you continue to relate the story of how the whole faction fell apart . Also, with the Mother Namtaru gone from the picture (wherever she went), Liches are in an immediate predicament - exactly the sort of situation that might force them to look for alternatives to the Namtaru's Blood to remain Undead for a while longer .
I might have made a spelling error or you misundestood me, on the contrary, I state that there indeed were different group of Necromancers, but never a direct "rebellion".
Even if Mother Namtaru is gone, lesser Namtarus might still be present. And I think there is another way to create a Lich (ressurect somebody as such), just like there is another way to become a Vampire.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:40, 28 Jan 2015.
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Pawek_13 said:
Stevie said:
Point being?
Primo - he was poisoned, he didn't take the venom of Manticore by his own will.
Secondo - it is pointed out that the remains of his corpse are in tragic state and this may create some negative consequences for him
Tercero - his whole body was destroyed, in Ashan if liches had some kind of bone uncovered, it was only their skull, not their whole body.
Quarto - such change is painful and dangerous - what if dose of Namtaru's venom isn't enough?
Primo - relevance to the way Manticore and Namtaru venoms work, 0.
Segundo - the word "may" gives away speculation. There is no reason to think of that especially since he's even performing the duties of a General. Plus, he was an actual Hero in the game, no hint of weakness or anything else.
Tercero - his skeleton was not destroyed. Liches showing only skulls in past iterations does not have any bearing on future models.
Quarto - is this even a serious objection? Moander, a human Knight, managed to survive with only a vial of Namtaru venom sold on the black market and actual Necromancers in a controlled environment and having access to the substance can't figure it out?
Really, there is nothing wrong with replicating Moander's transformation to explain Skeletal Liches.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 12:27 AM |
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Stevie said:
Really, there is nothing wrong with replicating Moander's transformation to explain Skeletal Liches.
Really, I fail to see why Necro would like to mix venoms at the first place. The idea that it gives more spiritual attunement is just a theory. WO's idea appeals to me more.
And btw, even if Necro worship Asha, she doesn't answer prayers.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 12:40 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 00:43, 28 Jan 2015.
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Just call it because of secret ceremony to become a lich? and one of the ingredients may be manticore's venom? differently from vampires, this kind of ceremony one also requires manticores venom? seems okay to me. simple and good solution.
i mean why not?
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Sir_Godspeed
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 28, 2015 12:46 AM |
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Jesus, this lore is convoluted. That's what happens when you write yourself into corners.
Writer 1: "And then the main character moves through a field of beets-"
Writer 2: "NOO! THERE CANT BE BEETS BECAUSE IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN SPINOFF GAME #113 THAT BEETS ONLY GROW IN THE PERYXDALIAN RIVER VALLEY!"
Some of these restrictions come off as equally needless and arbitrary. (potential Games-Workshop legal action nonwithstanding).
kiryu133 said:
Sir_Godspeed said:
I'm sorry if what I stated came off as a platitude.
nah dude, i'm sorry if i came off as aggressive.
welcome to the forums and snow!
Woop woop!
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Sultan of Stupidity
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 12:52 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:00, 28 Jan 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Really, I fail to see why Necro would like to mix venoms at the first place. The idea that it gives more spiritual attunement is just a theory.
Let me tell you why, so that we can have Skeletal Liches. Design first, lore follows. I provided that scenario as an example to prove that even in this snowed up lore there's still a possibility to reintroduce them. And most importantly, it's based on a very powerful precedent, so 100% Ashan lore friendly. They have the perfect opportunity to make Liches skeletal again as follows from the news we got today.
Next time, try following the context.
Quote:
WO's idea appeals to me more.
The one with the Shantiri Liches? Not viable for Heroes 7, which is the entire point.
If it's the one with Void Necropolis, then sorry but in the current context Necropolis hates Nethermancers and Void magic, so maybe in Heroes 8.
Quote:
And btw, even if Necro worship Asha, she doesn't answer prayers.
And btw, even if she doesn't answer prayers, she still provides them with power for their magic. Ashan rules 1.0.1, your dear WO even mentioned them some pages back.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Stormcaller
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 02:04 AM |
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Lore? Yeah, Paying attention about campaign story is the best I can do. And then 5 months later I completely forget everything and dont even care.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted January 28, 2015 02:38 AM |
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I am slightly sad that the underlying problem in this whole discussion is how over time HOMM franchise turned more and more into a high fantasy one. If only they tried to switch it around... if we had a dark fantasy Homm, we'd have void necropolis and infernal demons wreaking havoc, humans trying to fend off the demons to no avail. There's no need to turn darkside 100%, but I'd rather see some more shades of grey...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 28, 2015 07:44 AM |
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War-overlord said:
alcibiades said:
Exactly, which is why I want to send the message: Care less about the stupid lore and care more about the things that actually add to the game experience - gameplay and visuals.
A message that has been sent very often since Heroes 5/6. I have little doubt they are aware of the sentiment. And I think it shows how much is cared about fans not caring, I.E. disliking, about the lore.
But as I stated before, I like your optimism.
Sadly, on this point, I'm not optimistic at all.  Like you say, we've said it for ages with zero impact. But at least there seems to be an actual chance we'll get an, well, less horrible Lich.
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What will happen now?
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 07:48 AM |
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Quote:
if we had a dark fantasy Homm
That would be awesome!!! The world of death and terror! Just amazing, really.  But not in this dull universe.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 28, 2015 08:55 AM |
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TDL said:
I am slightly sad that the underlying problem in this whole discussion is how over time HOMM franchise turned more and more into a high fantasy one. If only they tried to switch it around... if we had a dark fantasy Homm, we'd have void necropolis and infernal demons wreaking havoc, humans trying to fend off the demons to no avail. There's no need to turn darkside 100%, but I'd rather see some more shades of grey...
That's still high fantaasy!!! Look at WC, they have exactly this and nobody would call them a dark fantasy!
Dark fantasy is something like the Witcher. More historically, where magic is rare and complex, with a lot more liberal approach to sex, language, violence and horror.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2015 09:05 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
I might have made a spelling error or you misundestood me, on the contrary, I state that there indeed were different group of Necromancers, but never a direct "rebellion".
Even if Mother Namtaru is gone, lesser Namtarus might still be present. And I think there is another way to create a Lich (ressurect somebody as such), just like there is another way to become a Vampire.
Yes, I misunderstood you. You took the middle ground between the extremes I sketched (one big happy family vs. civil war).
Still, that leaves enough room for a splinter faction, who went the way of no longer using the blood, thereby removing a vulnerability. Even with the destruction of that splinter faction, the practice could have been taken over without the philosophy of the splinter faction as a whole.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted January 28, 2015 09:11 AM |
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Stevie said:
Let me tell you why, so that we can have Skeletal Liches. Design first, lore follows. I provided that scenario as an example to prove that even in this snowed up lore there's still a possibility to reintroduce them. And most importantly, it's based on a very powerful precedent, so 100% Ashan lore friendly. They have the perfect opportunity to make Liches skeletal again as follows from the news we got today.
The one with the Shantiri Liches? Not viable for Heroes 7, which is the entire point.
If it's the one with Void Necropolis, then sorry but in the current context Necropolis hates Nethermancers and Void magic, so maybe in Heroes 8.
And btw, even if she doesn't answer prayers, she still provides them with power for their magic. Ashan rules 1.0.1, your dear WO even mentioned them some pages back.
Hey, but you claim that your theory is "100% consistent with lore", while it's not, and it fails to give a reason why Necro would chose mixing venoms. It's just not convincing for me. No need to get angry.
Nope, the 5th on his list.
"My dear WO"? Stevie, what happened to you? No need to get such angry
No, Asha doesn't provide them with magic power. She doesn't give a damn about Necro or about anyone, neutrality is her motto.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 28, 2015 11:16 AM |
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Stevie said:
[lore]
This new state of skeletal lichdom relieves the soul from the burden of flesh and exposes it more to the spirit world, greatly enhancing the channeling of magical powers.
[/lore]Then:
You managed to exclude the right one from the very beginning. The point of my idea is quite Sar-Elam-esque actually, even if it's not done through meditation but through Necromancy and at a smaller scale. Getting closer to death -> getting closer to the spirit world -> getting closer to Asha's conscience, the one that they are even worshiping -> getting Asha's favor -> more power.
There is no contradiction with the lore, and the novel part - spirit world affinity - not only does it not bend anything but it works and for a good cause: Skeletal Liches.
Edit: Did I mention Belketh, the one who discovered Necromancy, was a disciple of Sar-Shazzar who in turn was a Disciple of Sar-Elam who traveled through the spirit world to reach Asha's conscience? It connects so many dots that it's practically the best explanation. Liches lose their flesh and become more receptive to the spirit world in their state of undeath, receiving the favor of Asha which they happen to even worship. It's just perfect.
Oh, this is wrong on many points. So, let me just tackle the greatest ones.
1. There is no such thing as Asha's favor. As Sandro correctly states, Asha does not answer the prayers of her followers, unlike the Elemental Gods. Asha, in her sleep, has a very laissez faire attitude to her creation. Nobody get's her favor, not even the ones who worship her "correctly", like the Blind Brothers or the Silent Sisters, let allone those who worship her wrongly, like the Necromancers.
Which gets us to the way Necromancers "get magic". They do not get it from Asha, as you claim against Sandro. They get in the same way as Wizards do. By dominating other magical beings and using artifacts that have bound spirits already. The magic of Necromancer differs from that of Wizards only in purpose, not in origin. Necromancy itself is actualy a from of Dark Magic which, if anything, would lead them to Malassa. The notion that Necromancers get their power from Asha is something that is between their ears.
2. The spirit world is on the other side of the Veil, you do not get close to that, you either get in or you do not. As I've said there are only 2 ways the Veil can be torn. Necromancy is not one of them.
3. Necromancy only gives dominion over corpses, or spirits that have not passed on, like Ghosts which refuse to pass on or get lost or Ghouls, which are forcebly removed from the cycle. If anything, spirits very much need guidance to find their way to the Spiritworld, which is why the Silent Sisters exist, which is an actual cult of Asha. Necromancers who would follow spirits on their own are very likely to either get to the edge of the veil and then nothing, or they manage to follow the spirits to the Netherworld. The Netherworld being an anomaly between the Physical world and the Spiritworld, where the souls get trapped forever. So getting closer to Asha via the dead will get them nothing or trapped.
Also the chance of a Silent Sister aiding a Necromancer in this is non-existant, because the Sisters despise the Necromancers for their heretical interferrence in the proper cycles of life and death.
4. Managing to reach conciousness of Asha, made Sar-Elam a God. Fact remains that Sar-Elam was the only one ever able to do so, despite his teachings being taught for centuries. That suggests that the teachings of Sar-Elam are flawed, because if they were not more talented Wizards would have been able to do so.
5. I agree with Sandro again here, that the major flaw in your explaination is that you don't explain anything, apart from all the flaws it otherwise has. You do not explain why this is the effect of Manticore venom, which in all other cases is simply a highly corrosive liquid. Your lore follows design argument fall on it's face as wel, as you do not follow it up. You claim to give a 100% lore-friendly explaination, which provides no explaination and clashes with the lore in many ways.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 28, 2015 12:56 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 13:01, 28 Jan 2015.
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Stormcaller said:
Lore? Yeah, Paying attention about campaign story is the best I can do. And then 5 months later I completely forget everything and dont even care.
I concur. I usually pay attention to a games lore, but with Ashan, aside from dragon gods (which are rarely mentioned) I'm completely uninterested. Seeing how most of the guys on this forum who investigate it thoroughly criticize its inconsistency, this only confirms it's a wise thing to do...
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2015 01:49 PM |
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blob2 said:
Stormcaller said:
Lore? Yeah, Paying attention about campaign story is the best I can do. And then 5 months later I completely forget everything and dont even care.
I concur. I usually pay attention to a games lore, but with Ashan, aside from dragon gods (which are rarely mentioned) I'm completely uninterested. Seeing how most of the guys on this forum who investigate it thoroughly criticize its inconsistency, this only confirms it's a wise thing to do...
Well if Ashan is inconsistent what "Enroth" was? Has somebody been comparing MM7 and H3, games that take place on a same continent but you can make a long list of things that differ. There was not much lore in H2 but even the smaller pieces go almost ignored in MM6.
So if you blame Ashan for inconsistency, then well what can you say about the old world... that they blew up, instead of dealing with its problems and making it better. And they were planning to do it long before the whole Forge Controversy.
(As a disclaimer H2 and H3 are among my favorite games, i just utterly detest NWCs inability and bad decisions with the lore and story. And tbh H# fanboys are starting to piss me off a bit too much.)
The fact is there were retcons after H5 as there are now after H& to improve Ashan. Will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not. Never for the So called "Ashan-critics". Most people who critisise Ashan do it because they don't like H6 or have actualy problem only with a small part with it (the whole lich issue), or just dislike Ubi and need an outlet for nerdrage (cannot blame you on hating Ubisoft, but wrong outlet)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
