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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 11:13 AM |
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What I find interesting is that all the neutrals have a grey colour scheme instead of their usual colours(dunno if you could see that in previous screenshots,never really payed attention to it,so it is possible i just missed that info)and I wonder if we could be getting something like faction colours for your armies(so if you are playing yellow your haven troops will have yellow colors instead of red).
I kinda doubt that such a feature would be in the game if they didn't reveal it yet,but maybe it could come in an expansion?(you should be able to turn it on and off though)
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 11:47 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
It is how it works. Removing Capitol does one thing and one thing only. It lowers your income by 2k gold per day. That is it. This means all things become relativeley more expensive.
The cost is relative to 2 things - how expensive a given object is, and your income. If your income decreases, then relative cost will increase, as your won't be able to afford the same ammount. The same can be achived if your income does not change, but the price of the stuff increases.
It's basic economy. Idk if I explained well, since English isn't my language but let me try in another more simplistic way:
If you have 500$, and one PC game costs 50$, then you are able to affoard 10 PC games. Now if you only have 250$, which is half, you will only be able to affoard 5 PC games, if price dose not change. However, same effect is achived if price of games goes up to 100$. Now even with 500$ you still have money for only 5 games and not 10.
The fact that you can buy full week's worh of creatures in Heroes game is because price in gold is ADJUSTED to you having Capitol. If number of creature growth is doubled, or their price is doubled, then you would suddenly find yourself with not enough gold. Which is exactley the same if you remove Capitol.
In fact, what this means is if they remove Capitol, they would most likely reduce costs of creature hiering, so you would be able to get full week's worth with only 2k/day. It means that developer's INTENT was for player to be able to affoard this.
The problem with your argument is, that it is focused on YOU, but this is an economy and it works as a whole. If you want to change the impact of one thing, you don't change the entire economy. You change that one thing.
Example game: If one faction has too strong core units, and therefore it is too easy for it at the start, you don't change the starting situation for all, you tweak the faction.
Example market: In a situation when you want to restrict impact of one thing, you file specific taxes on it. Cigarettes, petrol, alkohol, income, you change that one thing. You don't adjust all the prices, so suddenly it ends up looking the same from the point of a single person.
In your game example.. Not everybody has those 500$, some have 400$ some have 50$. And changing the price of the game doesn't change the situation only for you, but for everybody, but the goal is to make the difference only for you, and for the rest? Understand?
You say that the game is designed in such a way. That the developer WANTED it to be so. But What I and JJ are saying is, that this is a BAD DESIGN, a design that kills more features than it provides by streamlining the gameplay. Changing options into mandatory checkpoints. If the town provides enough gold to sustain its population by itself, then it is independent on the rest of the map. When the town doesn't need the map, the map itself becomes something that is not a key to gameplay but an additional feature, a side activity. And when you reduce 1/3 of a strategy game to a side activity you clearly made a bad choice.
A balanced Heroes game should work on 3 pillars. Battles, Building and exploring. We battle to get more resources to build and to get experience to make the fights easier. We build to have access to advanced technologies and to generate more armies to help us explore. We explore to have enough resources to build those structures and to buy those units. If you give the primary resource generating property to a building, you highlight the importance of one pillar, make the second one totally redundant and reduce the need for the 3rd one.
Sure The motivation provided by a multiplayer game may compensate this. But Heroes is not a primarily PVP game. It is a single or Hotseat game for friends. It is not an E-sport.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 03, 2015 11:50 AM |
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dark-whisperer said:
But with this it looks like one GIANT dude taking a stroll.
Better with a giant dude on a comprehensible map layout than tiny dude surrounded by excessive scenery.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 03, 2015 12:02 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Better with a giant dude on a comprehensible map layout than tiny dude surrounded by excessive scenery.
How about something in the middle, huh?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:05 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
not only allows your Capitol town to hire out, you can use them all on one hero as well.
Capitol ONLY does that you can hire out. It has nothing to do to ammount of dwellings. The fact that you can use them on one hero is because:
- there's no army cap
- number of dwelling you can have at one time is 7. and ammount of army slots is 7.
Let's do this example. Remove capitol, and have 4k gold income from your first town from get-go. What would you think then? I suppose you would agree, this would be pretty bad. Capitol does nothing besides increasing your base income. By that I mean the stable non-changing income.
If you have 4-4-2 - or 10 dwelling structures, and only 7 slots, it means 3 will be left out. And those 3 will always be core. But that is seperate thing so I don't understand what was your point with this.
Let's asume Capitol is removed. You have 7 dwellings in 3-3-1 ratio built (you will not be able to have both champion sturctures at once). since no Capitol, you are not able to hire all (let's leave outside resources out for now). You need to decide which ones should you buy ... hmmm I wonder how many players will skip Champions in order to recruit Core? Core creature, and maybe even weakest Elite will be left out. You army will consist ONLY of 2 elites and 1 champion. If you have 2 towns, it will consist of 4 - 5 elites and 2 champions. Core creatures are redundant suddenly. Which prety much means, they are only usefull for early creeping, and loses don't matter. You would rush treasure, lose your core and replace them with elite.
How about another scenario. Capitol does not exist AND you are still able to recruit full weekly array of 3-3-1 creatures despite this. What's the point of removing it? Let's say because of no Capitol your town produces 2k gold/day, instead of 4.... but creature cost is halved ... what would this achive? Oh yeah - building prices if not adjusted would become realively more expensive, and therefore it would prolong the game. Castle is powerfull if armies are small, and by prolonging the period where armies are small, means ... camping - the very thing we want to avoid.
Now with this I would add, that there was never a situation where I couldn't make use of more gold, despite having Capitol. Every gold mine is wellcome. This is specialy true at first 2 months or even first 3 months. If you give me 10 gold mines + 5 cities + Capitol I would find a way to spend it all and still be out if it's like week 3  .
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:06 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
- you can still achive same result, by simply raising the cost per creature or add more numbers to recruit.
What? Zombi, you don't balance one building by making things more expensive for every body else? That doesn't balance it, it highlights the need of the building even more!
I laughed so snowing hard. GJ  
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:15 PM |
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Zombi, you didn't answre the question and you argue beside the point.
You wouldn't pick a, would you?
And, no, it's not CAPITOL that does 7 dwellings, 7 slots - 7 dwellings for 7 slots is just ANOTHER bad game design decision over and above allowing a town to hire them all as well (it's sort of an addendum),
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:16 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
In your game example.. Not everybody has those 500$, some have 400$ some have 50$. And changing the price of the game doesn't change the situation only for you, but for everybody, but the goal is to make the difference only for you, and for the rest? Understand?
So basicaly what you are saying is that Town of Haven produces more gold than Town of Sylvan?  I never knew that. /sarcasm
In Heros game everyone has those "500$" as all towns produce the same ammount of gold. The only way to achive that people have diferent income, is if one would have Capitol, and the other would not have Capitol.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:19 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Zombi, you didn't answre the question and you argue beside the point.
You wouldn't pick a, would you?
And, no, it's not CAPITOL that does 7 dwellings, 7 slots - 7 dwellings for 7 slots is just ANOTHER bad game design decision over and above allowing a town to hire them all as well (it's sort of an addendum),
Does it matter? And can't you tell from my post. Ok ill be direct. I would pick c. And game has been also designed so this is possible. you have 3-3-1 dwelling and you can recruit 3-3-1 creatures.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 12:27 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
So basicaly what you are saying is that Town of Haven produces more gold than Town of Sylvan? I never knew that. /sarcasm
In Heros game everyone has those "500$" as all towns produce the same ammount of gold. The only way to achive that people have diferent income, is if one would have Capitol, and the other would not have Capitol.
Uhmm Actually! You could say they do. Some factions had extra resource buildings (Dungeon for Warlocks in H2, slave market for Stronghold in H5, etc) and especially each faction has a different price of units, so basically the joke is on you :-P.
You still don't get the basis of the ideas. It is not to reduce the amounght of gold, the cost of units, or cost of buildings.
The idea is to
A - Make twons more dependent on the map. The player should be able to to recruit all the creatures he produces, but not only with the income from one source, especially if that source is his town.
B - Provide the game with a variability based on the need of making a choice from options that are equally good. The desicion which unit to bild is on you. If it is 3 out of 4 or 7 out of 10 doesn't matter, each desion give you a unit, a tool to use. Some tools might be more usefull in some situation then others but they are your decision to make and all can be used.
If is only the feeling of a huge, unique income from your main town you seek, why not, but make it rare, make it special. Link it to the grail, somehing you need to work for, not a general building that can be built with basic resources and time.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 12:54, 03 Feb 2015.
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I don't get it. As you can only build capitol in one town, towns usually are not self sustaining. So as soon as you capture another town you'll have the decision which units to build. Also when building up your town(s) capitol alone definitely does not provide enough money to live from.
I would understand your problem if every town could be self sustaining, but i agree with Zombi_Wizzard that the way capitol is implemented in H3 and H5 it provides additional strategic options.
____________
Can you make a faction including these units?
Join the Finding Harmony competition 2.0!
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 01:05 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Uhmm Actually! You could say they do. Some factions had extra resource buildings (Dungeon for Warlocks in H2, slave market for Stronghold in H5, etc) and especially each faction has a different price of units, so basically the joke is on you :-P.
well... no. First thing is, extra income is balanced by cost of buildings/army of those tows. Diferent costs are made for balance reasons, because .... not every creature is equal in power. Bone Dragon is not the same as Black Dragon.
Dave_Jame said:
You still don't get the basis of the ideas. It is not to reduce the amounght of gold, the cost of units, or cost of buildings.
Removing Capitol is reducing ammount of gold. It does nothing else in this sense. What this also does is REMOVE the investment risk of 10k gold, and make yourself weak in begining of game. Basicaly it means you don't have to wory about build order anymore.
Capitol makes extra 2k gold/day, or equivalent of 2 gold mines. It costs 10k gold. This in turn means you need 5 days for your investment to return. Early in game this can be crucial, as if you don't build Capitol, it means you are 5 days ahead of enemy, and only on 6'th day will he pull ahead with money.
Dave_Jame said:
The idea is to
A - Make twons more dependent on the map. The player should be able to to recruit all the creatures he produces, but not only with the income from one source, especially if that source is his town.
B - Provide the game with a variability based on the need of making a choice from options that are equally good. The desicion which unit to bild is on you. If it is 3 out of 4 or 7 out of 10 doesn't matter, each desion give you a unit, a tool to use. Some tools might be more usefull in some situation then others but they are your decision to make and all can be used.
I don't know what you mean by this. You are still dependent on map. Even if you have a milion gold, you will not be able to build much if you lack other resources.
Your point only holds true, after you already have town already fully built. And just like extra income also extra dwellings can be found on a map, that drains your income, but gives you more army. And games usualy don't start when things are already build to max ... usualy this is where they end. And there's not much reason to camp before that because ... well the goal is NOT to have your town fully built, but to have it fully built FIRST. It's not goal to have huge army, but to have it as fast as possible. It's MUCH more impresive to have 5 Champion creatures week 3, than have 100 Champion creatures month 10.
As for your second point ... Capitol has no influence on that.
Steyn said:
I don't get it. As you can only build capitol in one town, towns usually are not self sustaining. So as soon as you capture another town you'll have the decision which units to build. Also when building up your town(s) capitol alone definitely does not provide enough money to live from.
I would understand your problem if every town could be self sustaining, but i agree with Zombi_Wizzard that the way capitol is implemented in H3 and H5 it provides additional strategic options.
Thank you. This is what I've been trying to say.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
well... no. First thing is, extra income is balanced by cost of buildings/army of those tows. Diferent costs are made for balance reasons, because .... not every creature is equal in power. Bone Dragon is not the same as Black Dragon.
H2 example again, Titans are even more expensive then Black dragons, even if they are weaker in direct combat. But Still Wizards lack the extra resources the Warlocks have... Again
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Removing Capitol is reducing ammount of gold. It does nothing else in this sense. What this also does is REMOVE the investment risk of 10k gold, and make yourself weak in begining of game. Basicaly it means you don't have to wory about build order anymore.
Capitol makes extra 2k gold/day, or equivalent of 2 gold mines. It costs 10k gold. This in turn means you need 5 days for your investment to return. Early in game this can be crucial, as if you don't build Capitol, it means you are 5 days ahead of enemy, and only on 6'th day will he pull ahead with money.
The difference is, that when you build a capitol, you have the resources you spent back in 2,5 turns, in 5 turns your investment is back and from then you only profit without risk other than to defend one point. Acquiring 2 gold mines you risk losing units, units you will never ever get back, and You have to defend 3 points to maintain this in come
Zombi_Wizzard said:
I don't know what you mean by this. You are still dependent on map. Even if you have a milion gold, you will not be able to build much if you lack other resources.
Your point only holds true, after you already have town already fully built. And just like extra income also extra dwellings can be found on a map, that drains your income, but gives you more army. And games usualy don't start when things are already build to max ... usualy this is where they end. And there's not much reason to camp before that because ... well the goal is NOT to have your town fully built, but to have it fully built FIRST. It's not goal to have huge army, but to have it as fast as possible. It's MUCH more impresive to have 5 Champion creatures week 3, than have 100 Champion creatures month 10.
As for your second point ... Capitol has no influence on that.
Well my point was that capitol makes gold obselent. If you have 1 000 000 gold you don't need it, it is redundent. Usually you have the ore/wood sources next to your castle so all you need are rare resources. Which you only need for costrucion of some structures. So once all is constructed what is left? You got all the gold and resources you need, No worries. Is this the point where the game ends? Should we now, with no chalange go for the castles and end thi all. Like H6 (Again) a task that looses all it's chalange.
You know why 5 Dragons are more impresive then 500 dragons. 5 dragons are the result of your skill 500 are the result of time, you will get them eather way. But if both playrs have the same options, and one has 30 dragons nad the orher 20 and 10 unrecruited, that is a different story.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 03, 2015 01:45 PM |
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I honestly can't see how this would benefit the game.
This kind of playtyle would lead to the exact same problem H2 had. Units become redundant really fast. And it is always the same units, unless you find some external dwelling.
The units will look like a waste of development time if you ask me.
But this still has nothing to do with capital. It only has to do with how you finance your economy. It doesn't matter if you flag 5 gold mines and 18 watermills to have the same income as with a capitol or not.
The point should be on the fact that we need to have extra ways to spend all the gold if you have extra left. It would still be rewarding to build a superior economy but the reward would not be that you get to fill all the 7 slots of your army but rather that you get to fill those 7 slots with Azure Dragons and manticore while playing heaven and be able to cancle out the moral penalty by being able to afford that armor of moral superiority for 50k gold from the artifact merchant.
And please do not try to convince us with lineups that feature 10 or more units when you only get the chance to use 4-5 of them.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 01:52 PM |
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If you can't see the difference between a chalanging and motivating approachh instead to a streamlined approache, there is no reason to talk about it.
Also. You actually made a bit of a contradiction. You don't want units to be redundent, but at the same time you want to be able substitute your faction units with thus like Maticores and Azuras?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 02:00 PM |
bonus applied by OmegaDestroyer on 03 Feb 2015. |
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One thing: what Dave and me saying is nothing we invented - it's in HoMM 1, 2 and 4, and if you didn't play those, you should.
HoMM 1 and 2 gave you SIX creatures to build, but Heroes had only 5 army slots. A TOWN - in which you could build - would bring 1000 Gold per day; you could build a "Statue" that added +250 Gold, for 1500 Gold PLUS 5 ORE. Towns were balanced differently, but the only town that would be able to live with it was Knight (and they needed insane Wood amounts.
You wouldn't get very far with your inital armies, though: you'd have losses for sure, and you would need to hire better stuff
In HoMM 4 this was even more poignant: Towns would give 500 gold )yep!). There were two upgrades, both giving +250 each, but expensive, the second costing a ton of resources as well. Even with 1000 Gold per town you could hire only T1, T and T3. Also, with SimRetal, losses were even more certain, while gaps between the creature Tiers were significant: adding the T2 would gain a lot, adding the T3(s) would open up a whole new universe of gameplay - as would adding a 2nd magic hero, once you had a couple of useful spells.
There is just no Homm game that conveys the kind of URGENCY like HoMM 4 does; your regular map is FULL with cashes and objects and stuff so much so that you don't know where to start - but playing even on advanced diff level will confront you with so many guardians that you have to pick very carefully.
The reason for this is the tight economy, simple and easy. In HoMM 3 and 5 (6 is child's play anyway) everything is about getting your CHEAP key stuff, clear stuff with them and build the hell out of your town with everything you get since you don't need reinforcements: Marksmen; Grand Elves; Master Gremlins; Sprites...
You can't do this in the other games.
The Capitol doesn't add anything. It's 10.000 Gold for a gain of 2.000 per turn, so you break even in turn 5 after building it.
In HoMM 5 there is no decision involved: you need to bel town level 15, and by then the only question is whether you can build T7 or not when you hit that limit (in terms of resources); if not -> Capitol.
In HoMM 3 it's different: The first +500 gold simply cost 2.500 Gold. If you play Impossible, you will build it ASAP, on hard and very hard soon as well.
For the second one you need MG1, Market and Blacksmith - week 2 stuff, no matter what, except that in rare cases you may be willing to go for it week 1 as well, depending.
Capitol is something that comes naturally; you need the pop doubling builds for it, and those give you so many creatures that your 2.000 gold won't be enough ANYWAY - so you HAVE to go for Capitol anyway, after building the Castle, and as a rule, the expensive T7s should be build only after capitol.
The REAL decision is actually, whether to go for Citadel, Castle Capitol FIRST and THEN T7, or whether to go up to T7 in one go, maybe with Citadel in-between and THEN go for Cit, Castle and Capitol, but that's a question of difficulty level and how rich the map is.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 03, 2015 02:06 PM |
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Challenge doesn't motivate me.
Just because I'm wasting my time doing the same thing over and over doesn't mean I want to feel like I'm doing it.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 02:06 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
H2 example again, Titans are even more expensive then Black dragons, even if they are weaker in direct combat. But Still Wizards lack the extra resources the Warlocks have... Again
Ballance issue. Belive it or not ealy Heroes games weren't exactley balanced. They were still very fun, I agree. Not everything needs to be 100% perfectly in order, to put it in your words, this isn't e-sport. But ballance is still important if you wanna have good multiplayer.
Dave_Jame said:
once all is constructed what is left? You got all the gold and resources you need, No worries. Is this the point where the game ends? Should we now, with no chalange go for the castles and end thi all.
I understand this is your main issue with Capitol. And my answer... well yes, if you can ride to enemy castle and take it, do it. Win the game and celebrate  It's the goal isn't it? My games almost never last so long btw. They end before everything is built. With me winning or indeed losing, as is many times the case. On larger maps you have several towns, this would mean you would also need to have ALL of them fully built, and all creatures recruited. And one Capitol isn't enough. Oh and don't forget neutral and extra dwellings.
Why should I wait for certain building before attacking. I like to attack as early as possible. If enemy has good defence, and is better player, then ofc, any attack would meet with swift defeat. This is why second and third heroes are there as scouts.
Dave_Jame said:
You know why 5 Dragons are more impresive then 500 dragons. 5 dragons are the result of your skill 500 are the result of time, you will get them eather way. But if both playrs have the same options, and one has 30 dragons nad the orher 20 and 10 unrecruited, that is a different story.
So... you basicaly repeated what I said. And yes, if one has 10 dragons unrecruited and the other one has all of 30 recruited, this is also result of skill ofc. It happens lots of times, if someone didn't build Capitol before going for T7 for example.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 03, 2015 02:08 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:09, 03 Feb 2015.
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I want to suggest +QP to JollyJoker for his last post.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted February 03, 2015 02:33 PM |
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Edited by fuChris at 14:47, 03 Feb 2015.
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Dave.
I understand what you mean but I still think it is not an improvement on the game compared to what we already have or could have had if there were a bigger variety of map objects and ways to spend the money.
And really, untill mow the games where you had a real abundance of gold were usually the ones that were designed to be very rich in which case this all doesn't matter or on maps where the game takes 4-6 months to end and by that time you really just want to get it over with and not be at the point to be finally be able to get the full creature lineup from your first castle.
And no I didn't make a contradiction. The Azure dragons were my reward for sacrificing large amount of troops in the knowledge that I will get the edge in tha battle come the final fight. They might as well been Angels and they would integrate smoothly into my lineup but I would still have had to sacrifice part of my army. It was a calculated decision on my part. Strategy.
And JJ I have played all the games(not much H1 though) but both H2 and H4 were massively unbalanced(even if they were the fun kid of imbalance ).
In H2 you were on many occasions left with half built towns everywhere and with no idea how well you were doing except by how much of the map you conquered before the opponent could do the same. It didn't mean some kind of superior economic achievement. You simply played faster and thus better. It was the norm that you only had max 2 fully built towns and 8 other totally useless ones. While that in itself is not a problem but my point still stands that having a capitol doesn't make a difference at all. It is and always has been just a way to finance the economy. If from now on The maps will feature 10 forts min. all of which have the potential to be towns the ofcouse everyone will make the "superior" strategical decision to only spend money on 2. It is common sense. But those forts could be replaced with gold mines and nothing would have changed. All balanced maps will have to include some gold sources somehow. Capitol only guarantees that you will not be left without income if your opponent managed to outpace you, leaving you with a chance at a comeback.
And in H4 you were left wandering tha map with only 2 powerstacks because the rest were filled up with heroes. Wonderfully imbalanced but not a model for future Heroes games I hope. It didn't take some superior economic achievement to be successful because very rarely were many of the creatures ever recquired. It was a given that you don't buy those 1st level creatures past the second week. It took no calculations or anything because they were absoultely useless.
So as I said, the problem is not the capitol. The problem is that you want to design a new Heroes game on your own that plays copletely differently(don't we all  ). I would recommend you Discipled 3Age of Wonders 3 if you want similar kind of gameplay. Heroes is a different beast.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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