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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 03, 2015 12:10 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 00:11, 03 Feb 2015.
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Galaad said:
I never saw them before 
Me too...
Though there's a long way from a concept art to the actual game.
Funny thing about Game of Thrones. I don't want to boast here, but GoT started to be popular just as I picked the books a few years back. You can say I'm a kind of trend setter, cause its not the first time sth starts to get popular just when I pick it up. And GoT "atmosphere" is nothing new: I think people like it cause it somehow animates their "romantic" vision (or rather full of hmm... "passion", both in love and fighting) of Medieval times  You can translate that to any "serious" fantasy game.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted February 03, 2015 12:12 AM |
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Terran transformation may had happened under Nival's H6, we'll never know...
Galaad said:
I never saw them before
Then you better check this thoroughly 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 03, 2015 12:16 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
You better check this
Thanks I've read this some time ago, but it appears I've missed the screenshots. 
Always good to share and re-share these kind of excellent articles anyway. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 03, 2015 12:20 AM |
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Hadn't seen those images before either. I kind of like the grass one, but I can see why people find it too cartoonish. The lava one I don't like, looks to monochrome.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:39, 03 Feb 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Stevie, you ARE aware, that you you are now at my point of view, that the HoMM 2 way of doing things - having more creatures than hero slots and a tight economy where you cannot make the money with one toen to hire out - is the way to go, actually, and that the economic limitations are enough of a balancer; are you?
Yes.
I'm aware I opposed this at first because of my lack of understanding, I can't put it better than that. And also because the model I have in mind with 6-4-2 is bigger in scale than what Heroes 2 allowed.
The way Heroes is now evokes one word: linearity. Building order is not an important factor beyond the simple question of "do I go for economy the first week or build dwellings". After that, nothing else matters because in the end result is the same. The internal income with the Capitol makes building everything without a second thought a no-brainer.
With a system where the Capitol allows you to sustain 3 Cores, 2 Elites and 1 Champion ONLY, out of 6-4-2 available, you're practically obligated to think about your approach. Decision making now becomes a relevant factor. You won't take building for granted ever again because the economy will restrict you. It adds the dimension of "How many dwellings do I build and which ones?" where that wasn't a factor before because you would build all of them.
And in the process you make Kingdom-related activities a big priority because now economy is a volatile mechanic that can screw with you big time if you're not giving it the attention it deserves. Let's see just how much it changes gameplay:
- Economy becomes a crucial factor;
- Adds decision making to the process of building your town. With the way things are now you would build everything every single time;
- Outside income sources becomes relevant, as it allows you to sustain a larger army than a town with a Capitol can;
- incentive to explore new areas and dungeons to claim their treasures;
- efficiency in creeping as fast and as much as possible;
- flagging and controlling areas with income will no longer be a trivial or optional thing to do;
- Adds the dimension of economical warfare, where you will seek to disrupt your enemy's income as well as improve your own with Governors;
- Resource exchange and rates are now more important. You will look forward to trade the resources you don't need for the ones you do to build more troops.
I think there are plenty of reasons to go in this direction.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted February 03, 2015 01:24 AM |
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Galaad said:
To me is much more closer to the original spirit of the franchise Heroes of Might and Magic. I always felt Ubi titles lost that fairytale aura, but that's only my opinion.
I agree with you on this one. That is the main thing that bothered me with Ubi's heroes. Fairy element was gone. And I hate the fact that they are trying to create 'realistic' surroundings with HoMM6 and HoMM7.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 02:02 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 02:20, 03 Feb 2015.
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there are some problems with scale but i dont agree all of them. cabirs are too large i agree that, but adventure map doesnt have that problem imho. units and heroes are perfectly normal with their largeness. this is much better then full scaled adventure mp of h6. it will be ten times more functional...
dark-whisperer said:
Dave_Jame said:
And belive me, you don't want things in proportion. H6 tried this and Faild with it. They are icons, tokens.
I agree, but those are extremely large. That archer is much taller than surrounding trees. In fact it is more then twice its height.
have you ever played h3?
even mountains look small compared to hero.
btw, i hate to see that super bg elrath pokemon again, in that toy city. they indeed worked on lightning and it looks better, but its still serously bad.
frostymuaddib said:
Galaad said:
To me is much more closer to the original spirit of the franchise Heroes of Might and Magic. I always felt Ubi titles lost that fairytale aura, but that's only my opinion.
I agree with you on this one. That is the main thing that bothered me with Ubi's heroes. Fairy element was gone. And I hate the fact that they are trying to create 'realistic' surroundings with HoMM6 and HoMM7.
i think the opposite. h3 was never felt like fairy a tale, and i cant say that for h5. with its art style.. it was way too much fairy tale, even childish at some point. h6 fixed that... h7, with its adventure map, making it even more close to h3 now, adventure map scaling+art style looks like pre-ubisoft to me... only problem is that plastic toy children ts...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 08:38 AM |
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Stevie said:
JollyJoker said:
Stevie, you ARE aware, that you you are now at my point of view, that the HoMM 2 way of doing things - having more creatures than hero slots and a tight economy where you cannot make the money with one toen to hire out - is the way to go, actually, and that the economic limitations are enough of a balancer; are you?
Yes.
I'm aware I opposed this at first because of my lack of understanding, I can't put it better than that. And also because the model I have in mind with 6-4-2 is bigger in scale than what Heroes 2 allowed.
The way Heroes is now evokes one word: linearity. Building order is not an important factor beyond the simple question of "do I go for economy the first week or build dwellings". After that, nothing else matters because in the end result is the same. The internal income with the Capitol makes building everything without a second thought a no-brainer.
With a system where the Capitol allows you to sustain 3 Cores, 2 Elites and 1 Champion ONLY, out of 6-4-2 available, you're practically obligated to think about your approach. Decision making now becomes a relevant factor. You won't take building for granted ever again because the economy will restrict you. It adds the dimension of "How many dwellings do I build and which ones?" where that wasn't a factor before because you would build all of them.
And in the process you make Kingdom-related activities a big priority because now economy is a volatile mechanic that can screw with you big time if you're not giving it the attention it deserves. Let's see just how much it changes gameplay:
- Economy becomes a crucial factor;
- Adds decision making to the process of building your town. With the way things are now you would build everything every single time;
- Outside income sources becomes relevant, as it allows you to sustain a larger army than a town with a Capitol can;
- incentive to explore new areas and dungeons to claim their treasures;
- efficiency in creeping as fast and as much as possible;
- flagging and controlling areas with income will no longer be a trivial or optional thing to do;
- Adds the dimension of economical warfare, where you will seek to disrupt your enemy's income as well as improve your own with Governors;
- Resource exchange and rates are now more important. You will look forward to trade the resources you don't need for the ones you do to build more troops.
I think there are plenty of reasons to go in this direction.
Seeing people coming round to your view is really a gratifying thing. Power of conversion or something - might let you see the inquisition in a whole new light... 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 03, 2015 08:42 AM |
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cleglaw said:
have you ever played h3?
even mountains look small compared to hero.
That hero represents an entire army.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 09:12 AM |
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Avirosb said:
cleglaw said:
have you ever played h3?
even mountains look small compared to hero.
That hero represents an entire army.
As with... every instalment. So... your point? 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 09:23 AM |
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Kimarous said:
Avirosb said:
That hero represents an entire army.
As with... every instalment. So... your point?
Well, you know what the problem whit H6 maps were? They felt small. Like this epic battle we were playing took place in someones back yard. This was due to scale. The fact that trees, mountains, creatures etc were scaled to be as colose to each other as possible.
With a bigger scale difference, you achieve a feeling of a bigger world. The important things should be scaled up to show themselves, heck we wouldn't even need the bright lighting in such a case. As the hero the neutrals represent a bigger unit, not one individual. They must be easylly seen when fully zoomed out and have to be Identifikable. That is why, they need that size.
True the close-up pictures don't give the right idea and I would lov to see a fully zoomed out one.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 09:38 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Seeing people coming round to your view is really a gratifying thing. Power of conversion or something - might let you see the inquisition in a whole new light...
I'm still not converted . I do like your basic idea, and in that it's realy not much diferent than mine. However I don't see much purpose removing Capitol altogether because:
- you can still achive same result, by simply raising the cost per creature or add more numbers to recruit.
- with no Capitol you lose option to invest, and therefore lose risks asociated with it.
- H6 is terrible example.
- In H3 and in H5 I never felt I had enough resourcess, even gold to continuously build and recruit all things. Gold mines were highly contested. This DID change once your town is fully built, but if played properly you would either be victorious by then or lose the game or about to. (this is for small maps)
- you could only have ONE capitol per city, so you still didn't have gold to fully recruit and build multiple cities at once all the time.
- in multiplayer matches specialy treasure on map is highly important early/mid game and also highly contested. Sitting in your city and waiting for army/gold will not cut it. Oponent will be there week 3 with large army, and you still won't have castle up. Even BUILDING Capitol, itself requires exploration and collecting loot. If you weren't successful you shouldn't be able to build it. This is why Logistics skill was so OP and important. If oponent had logistics and you didn't it give him considerable advantage. Again H6 was bad example of this and logistic skill.
- Capitol in multi city matches also served as means to distinguish your capital from rest of cities. This means if oponent captures it Capitol will be destroyed, and if you recapture, you will need 10k gold again to rebuild. This gives reason to attack capital city, even if only capturing it for a day.
- There still should be more than enough reason to go out and flag outside resourcess, as buildings require more than just gold. And if Capitol requires Castle and Market and Town portal for eg, then you need to get those resources asap.
- In both H3 and H5 camping in cities early game was a great way to lose multiplayer match.
Now. With all this I see litle benefit in removing capitol, and only lose on strategic sides of things. My proposal is instead, to make it harder to build, so that you are vulnerable if you rush it, much like in H3. Fast Capitol shouldn't be ONLY viable strategy (as it was in H6), it should be viable depending on situation and oponent. Specialy coz you achive same result by modifying cost and number of troops to recruit, witouth sacraficing investment and capital capture strategy.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 03, 2015 09:50 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
- you can still achive same result, by simply raising the cost per creature or add more numbers to recruit.
What? Zombi, you don't balance one building by making things more expensive for every body else? That doesn't balance it, it highlights the need of the building even more!
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 10:10 AM |
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I like the Nival screens as well .
alcibiades said:
The lava one I don't like, looks to monochrome.
In my opinion, it's a nice touch - it adds to the feeling of being lost and doomed on the infernal plains. But, most probably, things on the map were not very visible.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 03, 2015 10:19 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 10:19, 03 Feb 2015.
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Kimarous said:
As with... every instalment. So... your point?
The landscape and map locations weren't built to the scale of the hero in older instalments.
So with the later games it feels more like there's one dude taking a stroll.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 03, 2015 10:34 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Kimarous said:
As with... every instalment. So... your point?
The landscape and map locations weren't built to the scale of the hero in older instalments.
So with the later games it feels more like there's one dude taking a stroll.
But with this it looks like one GIANT dude taking a stroll. I don't have connection between army size and creature on adventure map size.
I guess my problem is realistic 3D model that is out of proportion considering surrounding area. For me it would be better if units either were half the size they are now, or represented by their icon instead by their model. Its just my opinion, I can live with oversized units I just don't like them. In fact there could be an option where you can choose unit size (normal or large).
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 03, 2015 10:41 AM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Avirosb said:
Kimarous said:
As with... every instalment. So... your point?
The landscape and map locations weren't built to the scale of the hero in older instalments.
So with the later games it feels more like there's one dude taking a stroll.
But with this it looks like one GIANT dude taking a stroll. I don't have connection between army size and creature on adventure map size.
I guess my problem is realistic 3D model that is out of proportion considering surrounding area. For me it would be better if units either were half the size they are now, or represented by their icon instead by their model. Its just my opinion, I can live with oversized units I just don't like them. In fact there could be an option where you can choose unit size (normal or large).
They are this way to help people see them when you will zoom far out to have better overview of units.
This scaling was mentioned on twitch stream if i remember correctly.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 03, 2015 10:45 AM |
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Do you even mod?
Salamandre said:
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 10:48 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
- you can still achive same result, by simply raising the cost per creature or add more numbers to recruit.
What? Zombi, you don't balance one building by making things more expensive for every body else? That doesn't balance it, it highlights the need of the building even more!
It is how it works. Removing Capitol does one thing and one thing only. It lowers your income by 2k gold per day. That is it. This means all things become relativeley more expensive.
The cost is relative to 2 things - how expensive a given object is, and your income. If your income decreases, then relative cost will increase, as your won't be able to afford the same ammount. The same can be achived if your income does not change, but the price of the stuff increases.
It's basic economy. Idk if I explained well, since English isn't my language but let me try in another more simplistic way:
If you have 500$, and one PC game costs 50$, then you are able to affoard 10 PC games. Now if you only have 250$, which is half, you will only be able to affoard 5 PC games, if price dose not change. However, same effect is achived if price of games goes up to 100$. Now even with 500$ you still have money for only 5 games and not 10.
The fact that you can buy full week's worh of creatures in Heroes game is because price in gold is ADJUSTED to you having Capitol. If number of creature growth is doubled, or their price is doubled, then you would suddenly find yourself with not enough gold. Which is exactley the same if you remove Capitol.
In fact, what this means is if they remove Capitol, they would most likely reduce costs of creature hiering, so you would be able to get full week's worth with only 2k/day. It means that developer's INTENT was for player to be able to affoard this.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 03, 2015 11:11 AM |
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*Sigh*
There is NO connection whatsoever to town income and building/hiring. NONE. There is also no connection whatsoever to RESOURCES necessary for building.
Now let's assume that you WANT to guarantee a certain income from the town as such with a view on HIRING only (for building stuff you also need resources which you do not get from the town either, but as much as creatures cost money only (and in case where resources are needed to buy them you CAN build a resource silo to get that amount) - what WOULD you want to guarantee here?
Suppose - just SUPPOSE - your town was able to produce more creatures than heroes have army slots. SUPPOSE (just an example) you had a 4-4-2 dwelling structure, heroes having 7 army slots only: what should a town be able to produce at max? Should this income allow you to hire
a) 4-4-2 builds (everything the town itself can build)
b) 1-4-2 builds (the best possible line-up for 1 hero; this would also allow some variation; obviously this would allow 4-4-1 as well or 3-3-2)
c) 3-3-1 builds (the average line-up for 1 hero; obviously this would allow some variation as well, like 4-4-0)
d) 4-3-0 builds (the worst full hero line-up)
e) even less
Now, whatever your answer, I don't suppose that ANYONE would pick option a), because option a makes things somewhat boring insofar that only the order of build is in question now, not the builds as such.
Which is, however, how Capitol works - the second dumb thing being that you can produce EXACTLY as many creatures as your heroes have slots, DOUBLY paving the road - not only allows your Capitol town to hire out, you can use them all on one hero as well.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
