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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 03:52 PM |
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It is true that nothing can surpass the golden memories of youth (the good ol' times). I know I'll never play a game as much as I played Heroes 2 or 3, heck, I was a kid. But that is besides the point. The point is there is a formula that works, and it should be improved upon. A good gameplay is addictive even at this age ;p
What Heroes 5 did was improve upon the issues that Heroes 3 had. That was the correct way to try to go on. Some issues that were addressed:
*Overpowered stuff
-Town Portal, Slow/Haste,
*Building level 7 creature on first week
*Hero chaining
*Skills
-several useless ones
-choice of only 2 skills on level up
So H5 did those and overall many were pleased. But some new issues appeared, of course. H6 worked tried "fixing" these but this time imho all went just more wrong.
*Combat in H5 was too fast - aka the first attack could determine a battle if it was Paladins or Dragons killing a stack immediately. H6 made the creatures so tough all battles took forever
*Randomness in skills was complained by some (I still don't get why, that is fun) So we got complete free will of choosing skills.
*In multiplayer if you were lucky enough to get a second town that was same as your starting town you gained a huge lead over someone who found a Necro town. So Town Conversion was introduced.
etc etc. Anyways my point is the developers need to know what to change and how much. H6 failed horribly ;P
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 21, 2015 03:58 PM |
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Though i agree with sleeping sun, i don't believe that change is all that bad.
The formula is there and i agree, but it doesn't mean that it must stay the same forever. And there are only so many things you can upgrade. Heroes V was a very nice game, maybe even better than heroes 3, but can we really compare the two? They do have many years apart from each other. All future heroes games try to recreate heroes 3, and for good reason. But if we have multiple tries to re-invent heroes 3, why not just take the game, add the new visuals from the current games to it and call it Heroes 3 remastered? It can be done but it will offer nothing new, no evolution. But that's what many of our fan base is asking for.
Many think and believe that Ashan is an awful world. They may be right but i don't mind ashan. It has a story, a mythology, a lore and consistency. It has many areas to explore both faction wise and map wise. It alienates from previous worlds that heroes existed but that isn't bad. It has a main backbone upon which many good stories can be told. Heroes V had a very good story (for the most part). And also, don't forget that given enough resources, a good heroes game can be made.
Do you find Dwarves and Nagas having their own faction bad? I do not. It gives the game more variability, adds to dynamics and units. Given right development it could even explain and give sub-factions such as the Swamp faction. And Ashan can explain it and expand its lore.
In each heroes game there are things that we liked and disliked. It is important to keep the basic formula of the game but also incorporate the successful elements and improve them but also add that something new (a tiny part) that will differentiate the current game and even make it better.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 21, 2015 04:03 PM |
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@Marzhin
"Heroes VII cannot surpass Heroes III in the eyes of (most) fans because it cannot surpass the sweet nostalgia-tinted memories of a game people played in the golden years of their youth."A load of bull. One thing is personal and subjective opinion, while the other is harsh, cruel and objective fact. Yes, there is some nostalgia... about a game that perfected the franchise!!! We, need a quality game. Yes, there are some flaws in H3. But this transition from H2 to H3 was almost absolutely positive. H3 brought upgrades and added more to the game. The perfection happened in the past, it can happen in the future. But this perfection was in comparison to H2. Now, the games are compared to H3 and H5, being the best and staying true to the spirit of Heroes games. As Glaad said: "Polish H5 gameplay and make designs NWC/JVC style". I will repeat: Polish H5 gameplay.
But all this depends totally on you, Developers. And I think that it is your job as a developer to make a new line in perfecting the game. (Fans are perfecting the game creating their own mods.) If that is not your decision, then there is no wander why the fans are generally disappointed. If you are making a game just for the sake of making it, well, good luck with all the rage you people generate.
The point of my reply is to say that future Heroes games CAN be better than H3, whether you look at it subjectively or objectively. "Time will decide how well we fared against the games that came before us" Time is already showing that many things went to hell, but the fans still endure. We still hope for a game that is simply brilliant. H5 showed the way - upgrade things and IF needed add something.
"So no, we're not developing Heroes VII with the goal "we will surpass Heroes III"." Too bad and pity, is all I can say. I cannot help but think about the word 'milking'...
"It's not even for us to make such comparisons." It is whether you want that or not, because fans will do that and when they realize that your game has just reinvented the wheel (yet again), instead of being the cherry atop a cake, they will rage, and bash and insult. Do we need to remind ourselves about the Necropolis scandal? (among other things)
We're developing Heroes VII thinking "we'll make a great game" Well, I think I can fly, yet I always hit the ground when I try to do that. Odd...
"For the record, my personal goal is to surpass Heroes II as that is my favourite episode ever which Heroes III never surpassed"We all have our favourites. To me, H4 was the best, even though many people hate/do not like the game. But so far, it seems to me that you'll not even trying to surpass H2... There are things in H2 that were not seen in this franchise since H2/H4, that were good. JollyJoker has mentioned a number of things regarding this. One of the things he mentioned is economy (4000 vs. 1000 gold income) and its impact on the game, if I remember correctly. But there's of course much more to that.
I'll add something about creature upgrades, cause why not, I'm now ****** off by your reply. Not every creature needs an upgrade just for sake of it. In H2 it was good, we had creatures with no upgrade, with one upgrade and with 2nd upgrade. In H3 everyone had an upgrade. In H4 we had to choose between the creatures. In H5 we got alternative upgrades. Now is it so difficult to combine the best things of all games? Implement upgrades from H2 and H5 (no, 1st, 2nd and alternative upgrades) and from H4 to choose between the creatures (which was done in H7, although just for the champions)...
/End of rage rant 
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Minion said:
It is true that nothing can surpass the golden memories of youth (the good ol' times). I know I'll never play a game as much as I played Heroes 2 or 3, heck, I was a kid. But that is besides the point. The point is there is a formula that works, and it should be improved upon. A good gameplay is addictive even at this age ;p
What Heroes 5 did was improve upon the issues that Heroes 3 had. That was the correct way to try to go on. Some issues that were addressed:
*Overpowered stuff
-Town Portal, Slow/Haste,
*Building level 7 creature on first week
*Hero chaining
*Skills
-several useless ones
-choice of only 2 skills on level up
So H5 did those and overall many were pleased. But some new issues appeared, of course. H6 worked tried "fixing" these but this time imho all went just more wrong.
*Combat in H5 was too fast - aka the first attack could determine a battle if it was Paladins or Dragons killing a stack immediately. H6 made the creatures so tough all battles took forever
*Randomness in skills was complained by some (I still don't get why, that is fun) So we got complete free will of choosing skills.
*In multiplayer if you were lucky enough to get a second town that was same as your starting town you gained a huge lead over someone who found a Necro town. So Town Conversion was introduced.
etc etc. Anyways my point is the developers need to know what to change and how much. H6 failed horribly ;P
There will always be some issues with these games, none will be perfect. My main problem(apart from some badly designed things in H5) was the overall speed of H5 and AI playing for ages when his turn comes, but even with that H5 was the best Heroes games for me.
The reason why I agreed with Marzhin is because I can't even count the number of players I talked to that say H3 is the best Heroes ever, but when I ask them what they didn't like in H5 and why is H3 so much better for them, they can't give normal answer, are using some horrible arguments(if you can even call them arguments) and are just evading questions.
So I believe that nostalgia really has big influence here. After all, I am still playing H3(few days ago played 2v2v2 in friend's house with 6 laptops LOL) and I know that it is upgraded game in almost every aspect compared to H2 for example, but I've still enjoyed H2 a lot more as it was the first Heroes game I've played, it had the best atmosphere for me and H3 changed that a lot. When I saw H3 I was like "What the hell is this?" at first.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 21, 2015 04:17 PM |
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Sun, chill mate, there's no need to get upset  I agree with your points, if they are not even trying to make a better game, then why are they bothering at all? It's not only a question of principles, but also a question of profit. If it was only "nostalgia", then why aren't we all playing Heroes I? 
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 21, 2015 04:24 PM |
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LizardWarrior, usually I'm not trying to dramatize to much, but his comment really hit the peculiar spot.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 21, 2015 04:28 PM |
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I think it's a real shame anyone would try to blame fan nostalgia for the divisive reception the latest Heroes games have received, let alone an official developer of the game - isn't that a really depressing and fatalistic kind of argument to make?
for all the complaining from me, Galaad, LizardWarrior, Avirosb, Stevie, etc, none of us are so cynical to say it's impossible to make the best Heroes game ever
but perhaps it hasn't happened so far, because maybe the original games are better? maybe they had fewer bugs and more appealing graphics, more coherent design, decent stories and better map editors, maybe they are simply more fun to play? perish the thought lol
I mean for goodness sake, after being critically acclaimed for Super Mario Brothers, would Shigeru Miyamoto have whined and moaned about nostalgia to justify subpar, unambitious work? no, he'd create Super Mario World and Super Mario Galaxy instead to blow the minds of his fans with even better games
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
@Marzhin
"Heroes VII cannot surpass Heroes III in the eyes of (most) fans because it cannot surpass the sweet nostalgia-tinted memories of a game people played in the golden years of their youth."A load of bull.
Not a load of bull, but true. You may have diferent opinion, than some other people, but fact remains, that there is reason people are comparing every feature here mostly to H3's features. It's because in most of our eyes, we see H3 as a peak of the franchise. Is it nostaliga or something else I cannot say, but to me, no title will ever be able to capture that feeling I had when I first played Heroes III.
If H7 is to surpass H3, then it must be realy something extraordinary and revolutionary for the franchise, that will bring about same wow-effect, that H3 bringst us. You could say H5 surpased H3, but it didn't come with the effect H3 had on players back then. And it is this that it must surpass.
H7 may not do this. But it can still be a damn good game. In my personal eyes H3 was the peak of series. And H7 can be just another peak in the series, if it succeds and if it does, it will be indeed awsome. And imo this is what devs should try to do.
If you just polish a game, this is rerelease. It's not something thats new and will never, and I repeat, never, be enough to surpass the original.
EDIT: Here, what's your favourite Heroes game? Marzhin's is Heroes 2, mine is Heroes 3 ... someone might say Heroes 5 etc ... but why? Why not simply the newest? If your theory would be true, it would be logical that newer games would automaticaly be better for most fans, since they had more elements in them (mechanic-wise not content-wise).
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 04:31 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 16:33, 21 Feb 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
Sun, chill mate, there's no need to get upset I agree with your points, if they are not even trying to make a better game, then why are they bothering at all? It's not only a question of principles, but also a question of profit. If it was only "nostalgia", then why aren't we all playing Heroes I?
Because a lot of players didn't even play H2, let alone H1. 
It isn't only nostalgia of course, but you have to realize that we guys are vocal minority here that discuss what should've been better, things that should be fixed, discussing strategies, stories and what else should be improved etc.
I am pretty positive that what Marzhin says is true. A lot of people that I've talked to didn't even try H5 when they've seen the graphics and the game being in 3D, they didn't even reach the gameplay.
We here are different, and all of the Sun's points stand, but that isn't saying much about majority of people out there that plays H3 and are still saying how it is the best game ever made.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted February 21, 2015 04:52 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
I agree with your points, if they are not even trying to make a better game, then why are they bothering at all?
I think you and Sleeping_Sun misunderstood what I said.
Remember I was only answering to the fact we had, apparently, said "H7 won't surpass H3 because that's impossible."
I wrote our goal is to make a great Heroes game. Not just a good one -- a great one. Hopefully it will be seen as a better game than previous episodes! We certainly hope so, but we won't brag about it before the game is done. We'll let the fans judge. That was my point.
That said, a game that "surpasses Heroes 3"? I for one don't believe the fans that put H3 on such a pedestal would acknowledge it if it did. But that's OK. It's like those Doctor Who fans who always say none of the new Doctors will ever surpass Tom Baker. There's something subjective and emotional and, yes, nostalgic attached to it.
I never said Heroes 3 was not a great game. It was amazing for its time. Just like Tom Baker was 
If the same game was released today for today's players, would it be that successful, though? How much can you just repeat what was done 15 years ago (which was already perfecting a formula from 5 years before)? It's worth saying that games are more and more expensive to make, sadly, especially games with a lot of content like Heroes. We have to find a good balance between "pleasing the old fans" and "attracting new players".
As Sleeping_Sun said himself, there were some great ideas in H2, H4, H5, even H6 (I do believe that Areas of Control were a good idea in principle for instance).
If H7 doesn't do something, it's actually reinventing the wheel. We said many times that with H7 we aim to pick the best ideas of all the previous Heroes. Our benchmark the franchise as a whole, not only up to H3.
Lastly, about "designing it as JVC/NWC did". JVC was (and still is) a businessman. I doubt he would have kept the formula without making any changes to it. If anything, his plans for H5 (the NWC version, before 3DO went under) would have make a very, very different game from H3.
By the way, JVC liked H6. I heard it straight from the horse's mouth when he came to see MMXL at Gamescom a couple of years ago  But I'm sure Galaad and Verriker will never want to believe it
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 21, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
EDIT: Here, what's your favourite Heroes game? Marzhin's is Heroes 2, mine is Heroes 3 ... someone might say Heroes 5 etc ... but why? Why not simply the newest? If your theory would be true, it would be logical that newer games would automaticaly be better for most fans, since they had more elements in them.
More elements =/= good implementation of those elements.
More elements =/= the elements go well with one another.
Everyone is unique in their taste. But that is subjective. What I am talking about is objective view on this whole matter. Yes, some people still say that H3 is the best, and that H5 is bad. I'll admit that H3 had a 'wow' effect on me - it was my first Heroes game. But we should look beyond that 'wow' effect and beyond this subjective feel. When you analyse something it must never be 'I like this' and 'I hate this'. RMZ wrote: "The reason why I agreed with Marzhin is because I can't even count the number of players I talked to that say H3 is the best Heroes ever, but when I ask them what they didn't like in H5 and why is H3 so much better for them, they can't give normal answer, are using some horrible arguments(if you can even call them arguments) and are just evading questions." If one cannot defend or explain why he doesn't like something how valid is his/her opinion? Yes, his subjective view will never be questioned, but what to do when this person presents his/her subjective view for an objective one? Is it valid? No, I don't think so. Both H3 and H5 are good games. Both have flaws and good points. H3 may have better atmosphere, but H5 has better gameplay.
My theory is true under few conditions:
1) The developers have to actually make a good game - an upgrade.
2) A person playing the game has to think about the game objectively, subjective feeling shouldn't cloud one's judgement.
In the beginning, I did not like H5, mostly because of its graphics, and because AI played like a slug. But observing objectively, H5 has surpassed H3 in some points, while in some it just created some issues. So, subjectively, H4 is the best for me, but objectively speaking, H5 is.
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 21, 2015 05:30 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Heroes VII cannot surpass Heroes III in the eyes of (most) fans because it cannot surpass the sweet nostalgia-tinted memories of a game people played in the golden years of their youth. Just like no new Final Fantasy, no matter how good they may be, will ever come close to Final Fantasy VI or VII for fans. When a series has existed for 20 years, it's how it is.
I too long for the days when video games had decent budgets.
Nostalgia-nonstalgia, doesn't really work when the game is still being played.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 05:37 PM |
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Some things about nostalgia:
It's not a feeling that arises spontaneously with the passing of time. It's warranted. I feel nostalgic about H3 and H5, I don't feel nostalgic about H6. If a game was good, you'll feel nostalgic about it in the future. If it was bad, you wouldn't feel nostalgic about it.
It is an argument with which you can excuse anything, even blatantly bad design decisions. That makes it dangerous. I wouldn't use it.
If nostalgia was a deciding factor for how well new games would be received, M&M X - Legacy would've been a smashing success. It wasn't.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 21, 2015 05:39 PM |
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I admit that I was playing Tom Baker until 2 in the morning last week, trying out new strategies and his weirder fan mods,
but Peter Capaldi just never had a good enough AI to keep me awake, the Cybermen glitched up his basic gameplay mechanics, his visuals were copy pasted from Star Wars and I think the Silence wiped his map editor and modding capabilities out of existence lol
Marzhin said:
By the way, JVC liked H6. I heard it straight from the horse's mouth when he came to see MMXL at Gamescom a couple of years ago But I'm sure Galaad and Verriker will never want to believe it
I'd love to, but after all of the other botched promises Ubi made about Heroes 6, forgive me if I expect to see the receipts
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted February 21, 2015 05:47 PM |
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@Stevie:
I totally agree that nostalgia is warranted. As I said, H3 is a great game. But we shouldn't always compare everything to it.
Stevie said:
If nostalgia was a deciding factor for how well new games would be received, M&M X - Legacy would've been a smashing success. It wasn't.
Might & Magic X actually had a lot of players.
Just much, much less actual buyers... -_-'
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted February 21, 2015 05:57 PM |
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verriker said:
I admit that I was playing Tom Baker until 2 in the morning last week, trying out new strategies and his weirder fan mods,
but Peter Capaldi just never had a good enough AI to keep me awake, the Cybermen glitched up his basic gameplay mechanics, his visuals were copy pasted from Star Wars and I think the Silence wiped his map editor and modding capabilities out of existence lol
You sir, deserve every QP that exists This made me laugh out loud!  Unfortunately, this is the sad truth...
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 21, 2015 06:13 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Might & Magic X actually had a lot of players.
Just much, much less actual buyers... -_-'
Well, H6 wasn't even worth pirating
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 06:13 PM |
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@Sleeping_Sun:
I totaly agree with you on the fact, that when looking at things objectivly, H3 can easily be improved upon, and thus surpassed, this is also, why in reviews, both H5 and H6 got high scores. Becouse if you look in objective view, they are not bad. I personaly like H5 almost as much as H3, but almost is not more
But I presonaly like/dislike games on my own personal view, not what is objectivly good. There are a lot of games, Age of Wonders 3 amongst them (don't hit me), that got good reviews, but I just can't get into them. Are they bad games? No.
H3 was my second game (in heroes serie), first game was H1 (yes I played H2 only later, when I was dissapointed with H4), but H1 wasn't that special to me when I played it. When I discovered H3, it was awsome. It made me fan of whole turn-based genre. And I still play it to this day. Will I still play H7 15 years after release? I personaly doubt it. Tho like all things, it can happen. But will I like H3 any less? well no. H3 will still be there for me.
But why I am a fan of H3? I don't know about other people, but here are my reasons for it:
- There are lots of maps. If you count just official maps there is huge advantage over newer games. Yes graphics is nice, but this means less maps almost always. But there's more, as this game has the most fan-based maps in series. If that's not enough there's RMG.
- Editor is simple and powerfull, so even I can make map with little effort and I'm not pro.
- There's huge ammount of mods.
- Gameplay is smooth and responsive, specialy on new machine. There's hardly any load times, and I can play it on snowty laptop.
- Combat and hero movement on map is fast, witouth need for speed settings in options (tho there are still there) - Visuals new games bring are nice, I admit, but they get old after dozen or so hours, and then slow combat becomes tedious.
- UI is better than in new games.
- I can own one game, and lend it to frieds. We can make LAN session with 1 copy of game. Technology is not an issue, since game is so old it will run everywhere. This is very important for me.
- Graphics hold their own even after all these years. If I compare it with other similar old games, H3 looks great.
- For those that have not played it, it's cheap, as it only costs 8$ on GoG, so if I want new friends for LAN play, it's not much investment on their part.
- There's 9 factions which is the most in series so far.
- Simple fact that game came on CD-rom. I'm a fan of physycal copies of games, as it give me much greater feeling of ownership of something I had purchased, than digital editions. I have H6 only digitaly, and I miss the box. (even tho I also later purchased complete edition on GoG, as I do not own Shadow of Death expansion, and it was great to have it all in one)
- The wow-effect it had. Simply put, if game does not have this, it can't surpass it in my eyes. The only way I can look past this, is if I would not play H3, because then newer games would have this effect on me.
Also I think game itself was in a state, where not much improvements can even be made. It was almost perfected. If you want great improvement, then you would have to change gameplay significantly. If you still want this type of game, then it has to be H3.
Do I want another H3 in form of H7? No. I already have H3. I can play that. This is why small improvements don't do much for me. I want serie to significantly improve, and change, so it is still Heroes game, but diferent this time. If it can achive that, It can even give me the wow-effect of H3.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 21, 2015 06:18 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:19, 21 Feb 2015.
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@Marzhin,
On that note, M&M X - Legacy is actually the only M&M game I own. And there was no nostalgia feel involved in the decision to buy it as I haven't played any of the other RPGs. It was just that the game was very good 
Marzhin said:
I totally agree that nostalgia is warranted. As I said, H3 is a great game. But we shouldn't always compare everything to it.
Why not? Comparison is just natural. I don't see a reason why I should oppose it. I see it perfectly legitimate to compare two different iterations part of the same "Heroes" series, it's not like I'm comparing two games that have nothing to do with one another.
Speaking of which, wasn't the process of developing Heroes 7 extensively advertised as being based on taking what was good from the other games, especially from Heroes 3? How did the devs identify the "good", on what criteria? That it was well received - which begs the question why do we still have not well received elements still in Heroes 7 (Necropolis, lousy townscreens, color coding, etc.) - or that there is something objectively "good" - hence nostalgia not being a factor?
Because I'm having a difficult time comprehending a valid reason for which creating a better game than Heroes 3 is not achievable. Apart from unwillingness I can see nothing else.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 21, 2015 06:27 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:27, 21 Feb 2015.
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Marzhin said:
By the way, JVC liked H6. I heard it straight from the horse's mouth when he came to see MMXL at Gamescom a couple of years ago But I'm sure Galaad and Verriker will never want to believe it
I will admit I enjoyed H6... the first two hours I played it. I tried it again recently, and I'd be curious to hear why you think features such as Area of controls are that great honestly.
As for JVC, I obviously cannot speak on his behalf but I'd be interested in knowing how long he did play it, and also how can you be so sure he was not only being polite? After all, he still said he'd like to make another one, but is not like Ubisoft looks like they're willing to give him the opportunity to participate in a game he originally created himself lol
____________
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
