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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted February 24, 2015 09:50 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
Does that mean that when you reach 2000 posts, you will change your name? 
Well, my Ubisoft account name is Kronos10000, so... 
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 24, 2015 10:08 PM |
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i really wanna see the new troglodyte and medusas. Its funny, i wouldnt mind either of those being H6 purple, specially the Medusas, they would look good i think.
Sleeping_Sun said:
Being stupid =/= being original
Edit:
People's opinion is a problem? Radioactive spiderpolis vs. people's opinion. This is more than enough to show that people's opinion is not a problem.
And disliking some thing =/= said thing being stupid. Personally i dont consider an elite order of vampires who are very very good at killing and who wear hoods and scythes blessed by a death goddess stupid. It's just a name, a title, and it fits them.
No, the problem is 100-150 people considering themselves the voice of the entire playerbase when they're 1%
malax83 said:
Every news on the site confirm what i m fearing..
This suit does not deserve the multiplayers game. What worst about giving a rework of lichs and vampires ? Is there enought work to do aside ?
There s no news about simultaneous turn, there s no more than a fickle lore and fans blind by their own love. Piss me off, the simultaneous turn seems less important than two undead creatures - don t blame me Ubi is doing well overall, i can t believe each heroes is lacking something..
I dont think that the modelers are the same people who are doing the programming.
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted February 24, 2015 10:16 PM |
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Well, I'm waiting for the "big, wild and fierce" they've mentioned.
Is it a reference to the Behemoths
@Kronos1000
Congrats on your 1000.
Btw, (maybe you've explained in the past and I've missed it) is this Old Anglo-Saxon English at your signature?
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To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted February 24, 2015 10:39 PM |
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EPICUSDOOMICUS said:
@Kronos1000
Congrats on your 1000.
Btw, (maybe you've explained in the past and I've missed it) is this Old Anglo-Saxon English at your signature?
Yes, it's Old English. It's a quote from the poem 'The Wanderer', it roughly translates to 'Where has the horse gone? Where the rider? Where the treasure giver?'
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 24, 2015 10:39 PM |
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Things are disliked for a reason, if you haven't noticed. But it's obvious that you are just ignoring it. The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad. Hence the discussions and criticism. It is just a logical thing, really.
If the problem are people who criticize something because they want quality, I cannot guess how you call people who are happy with something that is being served flawed?
The fist problem is presenting something flawed as good.
The second problem is accepting something flawed quietly or with a praise.
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
Edit: "Yes, it's Old English. It's a quote from the poem 'The Wanderer', it roughly translates to 'Where has the horse gone? Where the rider? Where the treasure giver?'" 
____________
"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
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posted February 24, 2015 10:44 PM |
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Kronos1000 said:
Yes, it's Old English. It's a quote from the poem 'The Wanderer', it roughly translates to 'Where has the horse gone? Where the rider? Where the treasure giver?'
____________
To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 24, 2015 11:31 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 23:31, 24 Feb 2015.
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Behold the future of Heroes 7's leet strategy.
Just apply a crossbowmen or a lich texture on the guy.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 24, 2015 11:57 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
The fist problem is presenting something flawed as good.
The second problem is accepting something flawed quietly or with a praise.
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
Well said.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 25, 2015 12:06 AM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 00:07, 25 Feb 2015.
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Sleeping_Sun said:
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
It all depends on how they critisize. Showing dissent doesn't automatically mean any kind of superiority over the ones who feel that the "bad change" is "good". These two terms are too ambiguous to be able to determine objectively determine which sideis right.
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A8T
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 01:02 AM |
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Meh, I think criticism is good! In fact we would not have made some of the changes we asked for if we didn't. However I think there is one word missing...
Priorities
While I am not a fan of the over impractical spider legs on many Necro units and the town, I really don't see it as a huge, game braking issue that I am willing to spend a lot of time and energy trying to change. I am far more interested and worried about bugs, whether or not the game will be playable at launch without the difficulties we had with other games like shades of darkness, and if the story and story telling is of a high standard. And I think it's easier to get the most important things sorted if you prioritize complaints, rather than go for the spray and pray approach of complaining about everything and hoping they deal with some of it.
As for comparing this to 1984... that's way other the top! This is a video game which you can chose to buy or ignore, not a totalitarian government that tortures and kills its own citizens. Might as well be breaking Goodwins law here. Or am I just getting trolled? In which case fair play.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 01:22 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Things are disliked for a reason, if you haven't noticed. But it's obvious that you are just ignoring it. The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad. Hence the discussions and criticism. It is just a logical thing, really.
If the problem are people who criticize something because they want quality, I cannot guess how you call people who are happy with something that is being served flawed?
The fist problem is presenting something flawed as good.
The second problem is accepting something flawed quietly or with a praise.
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
Just as there is dislike, there is the opposite. In the end none of the opinions matter more than the other. The second part of the parraph shows your problem though: you assume your opinion = fact & right and people who dare to think otherwise are dumb sheep.
Asking for quality isnt bad at all. Saying the he grim riders being vampires, the lich not being an skeleton and the vampire not being nosferatus arent quality because you dont like the lore or the design is when said lore and/or design is coherent with the unit is just silly.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 07:48 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Things are disliked for a reason, if you haven't noticed. But it's obvious that you are just ignoring it. The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad. Hence the discussions and criticism. It is just a logical thing, really.
If the problem are people who criticize something because they want quality, I cannot guess how you call people who are happy with something that is being served flawed?
The fist problem is presenting something flawed as good.
The second problem is accepting something flawed quietly or with a praise.
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
Yep this is correct in most things, but when applying this to art (writing and visual style) it dosen't work, since these things are interpreted by each individual diferently. There is no objective criteria, for basis to say that visual style is bad. So I'm afraid Genya is right on this one ...
I like red car, someone might not, but would prefer blue, which I don't like much. So, if I'm buying new car, I won't order blue. Now would you say blue is inferior color to red? And those that buy blue car have poor taste? No. They have diferent taste.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 08:21 AM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Things are disliked for a reason, if you haven't noticed. But it's obvious that you are just ignoring it. The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad. Hence the discussions and criticism. It is just a logical thing, really.
If the problem are people who criticize something because they want quality, I cannot guess how you call people who are happy with something that is being served flawed?
The fist problem is presenting something flawed as good.
The second problem is accepting something flawed quietly or with a praise.
The third problem is criticizing those who criticize something flawed.
Well there are two sides to each opinion, well at least three to be exact, but two will be enough for me to give an example.
People have different tastes, opinions and different understanding problems and identify topics as such. What one sees as a major issue is not an issue at all for the other.
It is clear now that many people were strongly upset by what was presented to us as the new necropolis, but for me, it is only a matter of taste, not a problem that deserved so much attention. Even in its largely copied line up necropolis managed to be more innovative in the means of units and game play then for example Academy, which was basically the same every time we saw it since 1999.
But the problem is, it is just my opinion. And no matter how vocal I could be about it, it would never-ever stop people informing me that my opinion is in the minority.
There are more such topics I could talk about, like my favorite bone dragon issue, or the fury vote.
There is nothing bad on criticizing something that is bad, or expressing our opinions with intentions to make things better.
And yes, I noticed 3 major areas that game deserves criticism or attention.
- The reuse of models: Which escalated with the necropolis update.
- Town screens: Which need to be more coherent, and lively
- Random skill system: Which was expressed by us as a wish, and was listened out.
And I will give all the praise they deserve to the people who gave their effort into the presentation of these problems.
But tell me. How does criticizing the Reaper for being a vampire help the game? How will topics like "Should ashan be scraped" or the hate towards individual factions help the game?
The problem with necropolis for me was that it reused models with almost no visual changes. Not that it was not created by 196O' and older horror standards. That is why my biggest problem is the Bone dragon, not the spider centric lich or vampire, but a 4 times reused model for 6 creatures (and again Black dragons are coming so be ready to make it 5 and 8).
On the other hand criticism towards the reaper for me feels forced. Unlike the 3 topics i noted, that had huge visual or game play influence, lore and flavor texts are limited in this field. It is easy to avoid them and in a standard game they have almost no influence at all. Some people may dislike it, and some like Galaad might even strongly voice how important it is for them, even though they dislike it. But unlike other problems, these are not connected to the game itself or the standard experience we have with it. Only to the setting.
If I would make one of my analogies, oh why an analogy, if would try to explain, this difference I would look at other style guided products like game, films, books. If a product is set in a specific setting, or world, it should be done in such a way, to represent this world, and not by any means should it forcefully changer the world for its own sake.
And this is what the problem is, people who dislike the lore, background flavor-text's want to change the world into their liking, and that is not good. Tweak it. Make it more unique, fitting but do not change something just because you don't or don't understand the idea behind it.
This is the reaper problem this is the spider-cult problem.
At this point, I would like to ask a question to all, all people here. What would Ashan gain from changing the lich to a skeletal one, and the vampire to a Nosferatu one? Apart from visuals, how would it benefit the lore? How would it make it better?
I would like to express my fear for the brand. Fear of the influence a few people can have. Fear how in the future it could cripple the game and everything around it. Limits will be made in the field of creativity and stagnation will threaten the games and the worlds development. Some of these changes have been for the good. But if this will continue, I fear many factions will end-up like academy, rarely introducing something new and original.
The problem is, when you ask people what they want they'll tell you they want exactly the same thing they already have. People often do not know what they want until you show it to them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 08:58 AM |
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Dave,
while I agree in principle, the real problem is to be found on a deeper level.
There is nothing wrong with creating a "game universe", and while you can debate "the lore" back and forth, in the end, for how the game plays, it's more or less irrelevant: it will neither make nor break the game.
The real problem is "Extended Prequel Mode".
EPM prevents creative development and changes OF THE LORE. With the result that it becomes a meaningless mausoleum that repeats itself and turns in circles.
I mean, you CAN do this. ONCE. HoMM VI, fine. Have a prequel, lay down the the past and the lore, to the last dot. All fine.
But then, MOVE ON, for Asha's sake. Shake that darn world up. Get rid of SOMEthing and create something NEW instead. If we were in the record industry, then I would say HoMM 7 doesn't sound like a new album, it's a collection of Greatest Hit remixes. With the fans voting in some cases which ones are to be included.
To make up for that, gameplay will have to be nothing short of OUTSTANDING; in other words:the best HoMM gameplay ever.
Which remains to be seen.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 25, 2015 09:10 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Dave,
The real problem is "Extended Prequel Mode".
EPM prevents creative development and changes OF THE LORE.
Well, technically retcons are changes.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 09:14 AM |
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I would extand this to "Extended Known Prequel Mode".
Since the problem is not in the fact that the setting is in the past. That doesn't stop us from exploring new areas or unknown parts of history. Nagas, Stronghold, these factions have such a variaty in settings nad subfactions, that are less known, that exploring their stories would provide enought exploration, and future variaty for several games to come.
In H7 storyline, we know that Ivan will win, regardless what actions the player makes. The only interesting part of this story for me is, how will the Gryphon dutchy became the Raven Dutchy.
Now this brings a nice topic to talk about.
Iconic creatures vs creature archeotypes.
I can't feel that some factions like Academy or dungeon wrote them selves into a corner. Filling their lineups with specific creatures, rather then creature archetypes. The difference is, whyle iconic creatures will mostly stay the same (minotaur, Titan) archeotyp can have a large variation. "Big orc, Small orc"
Avirosb said:
Well, technically retcons are changes.
Well to be honest for me they are more in the line of clarifications. The fact that they changed the year of beastman creation doesn't change the fact that they are in the game. A major leap into the future, where there is not enough magic for their bodies to maintain their artificial stability is.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 09:28 AM |
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Retcons are pretty meaningless unless you move into the future. Technically spoken, if HoMM 5 would be considered something in need of revision or clarification, then the world/lore sketched in HoMM 6 (and Legacy and HO and DoC) does that, and does it exhaustively.
However, there IS HoMM 5 and the events told there...
I mean, think Star Wars. Let's say, they made the first movie; and after its great success, instead of doing a seqel, they decide, ok, the past offers great stuff - how come Darth is Darth and is he really Luke's father and why did he succumb to the dark side -, so let's tell that story first, and since we are at it, let's retcon a couple of things that went astray in SW I.
So you make a prequel telling the frigging story of Darth - but then what? Would you, armed with all the retconned details REMAKE SW 1 (already)? Would you do another prequel, setting everything on hold, leaving everything in the balance?
Or would you continue the story of Luke and Darth? (Picking up what made SW I a big success in the first place, but include everything retconned in the prequel to merge everthing into a continuation of the story?)
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 25, 2015 09:37 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 11:31, 25 Feb 2015.
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I as in George Lucas or I as in Disney's J.J. Abrams?
V Didn't answer the question
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 10:05 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 10:09 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
But tell me. How does criticizing the Reaper for being a vampire help the game? How will topics like "Should ashan be scraped" or the hate towards individual factions help the game?
The problem with necropolis for me was that it reused models with almost no visual changes. Not that it was not created by 196O' and older horror standards. That is why my biggest problem is the Bone dragon, not the spider centric lich or vampire, but a 4 times reused model for 6 creatures (and again Black dragons are coming so be ready to make it 5 and 8).
Exactley. This is what I been saying 300 pages ago. It's great to see im not alone.
Dave_Jame said:
On the other hand criticism towards the reaper for me feels forced. Unlike the 3 topics i noted, that had huge visual or game play influence, lore and flavor texts are limited in this field. It is easy to avoid them and in a standard game they have almost no influence at all. Some people may dislike it, and some like Galaad might even strongly voice how important it is for them, even though the dislike it. But unlike other problems, these are not connected to the game itself or the standard experience we have with it. Only to the setting.
Yes, yes, QP worthy. Also as I stated, visuals have no effect on gameplay experience. It's nice if they are good tho. But lore can be totaly avoided if you wish. I don't read lore, and I'm fine, as I like gameplay of heroes games.
Dave_Jame said:
I would like to express my fear for the brand. Fear of the influence a few people can have. Fear how in the future it could cripple the game and everything around it. Limits will be made in the field of creativity and stagnation will threaten games and worlds development. Some of these changes have been for the good. But if this will continue, I fear many factions will end-up like academy, rarely introducing something new and original.
The problem is, when you ask people what they want they'll tell you they want exactly the same thing they already have. People often do not know what they want until you show it to them.
+1
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
