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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 25, 2015 02:38 PM |
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I know the post wasn't aimed at me but, I daresay the budget is H7's hiterto biggest problem.
Now think, you could've had your Fortress, Inferno, Dungeon AND Sylvan, all on one table.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Avirosb said:
I know the post wasn't aimed at me but, I daresay the budget is H7's hiterto biggest problem.
Now think, you could've had your Fortress, Inferno, Dungeon AND Sylvan, all on one table.
having too big a budget spells disaster for a franchise like heroes though. don't get me wrong, all that would be amazing but would it ever be able to make the money back? sure, ubi could advertise it at least somewhat (a mention at e3 could do wonders for interest) but even so, it's not a game that will move millions of copies. it just won't happen unless they actually reduce the price-point considerably and we all know ubisoft would never even consider that. base game plus expansions are really the only way for heroes to stay afloat if ubi continues with their adamant disregard for a franchise that could be universally loved instead of a niche little side-project.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:55, 25 Feb 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Avirosb said:
Dave_Jame, maybe you should answer your own question?
What is the spirit of Heroes?
Offcourse I can :-)
For me heroes is the feeling and the mechanics. The joy of exploration and dvelopement, the possibilities and variations. The combination of mechanical and unforseen.
That is why H4 never was a heroes game for me, and why H6 does almost not deserve this honor as well.
You see the worlds never limited the fun I had with the games. Niether is the fault of Axeoth that I disliked H4. And further more Heroes games never gave a good insight into those worlds in the first place. It were the other games, that did this much better.
I have never asked myself why the Vampires in H3 and MaM8 looked so different then those in H2 and MaM7
Why is the H3 orc green. Why did Hydras have 0 then 4 then 2 legs and more. The world is not important, if you do not plan to explore it. But heroes was usualy, atleast for me, creating my own worlds to explore.
Look, I can break it down to you at the lowest level possible but that's just time consuming. Nevertheless, this is how I see "Heroes":
To me this game has 3 distinct areas which I priorities in this order: Gameplay -> Atmosphere (visuals/music) -> Story/Lore. What you did is mix them up and throw everything under the carpet of "preference".
Gameplay: If the game doesn't have solid gameplay, then it doesn't matter what else it has. There are CORE features which should not be taken away from the game as they are the pivotal pylons of what "Heroes gameplay" means. Examples: Adventure/Exploration, Factions, Heroes, Towns, Resources, Combat, Magic, etc.
There are many ways you can implement gameplay, but there's one "Heroes formula". For example with resources, the Heroes formula is 2 common resources, 4 rare resources and gold. At this level, Heroes 6 was not part of the Heroes formula, people didn't like it, devs changed it back to how it was. That's how it works. One more example is the Magic system, you can further break it down to methods of acquisition and combat implementation. While Heroes 6 (arguably) had the combat implementation, hero can casts spells when his/her turn comes, it did not have the method of acquisition of spells according to the Heroes formula, from a Magic Guild/Map Objects, but through skill points. People didn't like it, devs changed it back, and even identified the idea of "Spell Hunt" as they call it as being very important for gameplay.
And you can do that with all of them. You might say that we'll never progress if we just reiterate the same features each game without any changes. And I would say you might be right. But the answer to that is not to reinvent the formula from scratch, but build upon what was already good. This is why some people didn't like Heroes 4, because the gameplay was different; battlefield grid was different, heroes were creatures, economy and recruitment worked differently, town building was different, etc. That's why people didn't like Heroes 6 either, and I already provided examples. But that's why people liked Heroes 5, because as far as gameplay goes it was the spiritual successor of Heroes 3, building upon the Heroes formula with additions, not rework, like racials, dynamic initiative, etc.
Atmosphere: Anything visual - art style, towscreens, concept models, color palette, glows/particles, etc. - and music. I'm not going to dwell on the music part since this is just highly subjective and usually Rob & Paul don't fail us. But at the level of visuals you can at the very least identify townscreen, faction themes, creature models and color palette/glow issues.
The problem with townscreens is their execution. If you're not familiar with the debate, there's a whole thread about it, here.
On the faction theme, let's start with the most obvious comparison: Necropolis. Faction theme that worked just fine was hauntish undead from Heroes 3. One that did not work was Infernopolis in Heroes 4. Another one is Spiderpolis with Ubi era. This is not a problem of subjectivity per se, there is an obvious theme shift which is alienating the idea of Heroes.
Then the models. What NWC did was associate mythological creatures with the idea of Heroes. What Ubi does is not only REPLACE already working concepts, but doing so with bad/plagiarized models. Case in point, Nosferatu/Count vampire transitioned to a Warhammer ripoff/Warcraft Arthas. Another one is the Lich, transitioning from skeletal to a prune. Another example is that of the TWO headed Cerberus. Then there are elements like pieces of attire that are totally out of place - like bondage chains and SM piercings, spider legs coming out from ones back, etc. You might not give a damn about these things but for those many they break immersion. As JJ said multiple times, Ashan sells you the name but with a different content.
The color palette/glow problem was mostly prevalent with Heroes 6. I don't think there's a need to mention 50 Shades of Purple or Holier than Thou Haven brightness. People saw it, people hated it.
Lore is the least important part. Avoid the campaign and you avoid the story. However it is a real issue when it restricts game design. They effectively wrote themselves into corners from which they cannot get out without breaking the IP - which is what they want to avoid so terribly that they have an active team checking for consistency. Let's start with Ashan's over-religiousness. Not only it's off-putting but it's representation with symbols in the game is nothing short of over the top absurdity. Worse example of all, Necropolis - spiders everywhere, not only on the attire but now as an actual creature inside the line-up too. Even the townscreen has spider legs! Then, at the magic level, we are only getting 7 magic schools not because they figured it would be good for gameplay, but because lore dictates it. And I know there was a long discussion about that too in another thread, here. Faction color-coding is also in part because of the colors associated with the magic schools. They themselves admitted that Purple for example is the color of Dark Magic.
Not to mention that if you're actually interested in lore, you're in for a wild ride.
So yea, there you have it.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 03:22 PM |
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I'm not sure why people didn't like heroes 4. I liked it, with the main commander in battle, the game looked more like a chess match.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 03:37 PM |
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Kayna said:
I'm not sure why people didn't like heroes 4. I liked it, with the main commander in battle, the game looked more like a chess match.
simple: it wasn't complete. i like h4 too (best adventure map ever!) but there are clearly issues and just plain weird things going on. battles were not very good completely lacking clarity (where can that guy go? is he able to attack me in melee or not? why is it isometric?) and unfinished mechanics all over the place left a strange mess of a game. speaks volume about the team that it's actually playable and enjoyable. cool and interesting ideas non-withstanding (i would love to see a new take on it), it was certainly a low for the franchise.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 04:00 PM |
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Stevie said:
There are many ways you can implement gameplay, but there's one "Heroes formula". For example with resources, the Heroes formula is 2 common resources, 4 rare resources and gold. At this level, Heroes 6 was not part of the Heroes formula, people didn't like it, devs changed it back to how it was. That's how it works.
I would disagree here, because if you go to the roots of this, the reason isn't "the heroes formula", but the fact that something WORKS, while changing it DOESN'T, although you COULD change it - provided you make it work.
For example, with resources, it's not the plain fact that there were 6. It was the fact that every faction would need a varying amount of resources, like, one or two very much so, others on the other hand not so much - which led to some resources being in high demand, while others would stockpile, giving the Marketplace(s) food and also create the foundation for trading resources.
The reason why resources got reduced to 3 was officially, that they didn't like the fact that there were resource mines that wouldn't be contested, because later in the game a faction wouldn't have need of them all anymore.
I mean, it's not that difficult to spot the problem with that idea, is it? If you need always everything there is no surplus anywhere and therefore no trading - not to mention that it's drab and that the fact that you need all for everything makes building your towns somewhat boring and arbitrary, since you can build what you can build, period.
Which means, it's not the Heroes formula - it's simply the fact that reducing the resources to a bare minimum that everyone needs anytime is just a crappy idea, plain and simple. Based on that you could have a lot of different resource configurations and not only the 2-4 thing. You might for example have a 2-2-1, a 3-3 (adding stone as the 3rd simple resource) and so on - provided, and that's the important thing, you plan the building resources needs accordingly.
So in this case the HoMM 6 error with the resources is based on on completely faulty analysis of how to make the game better, which has been a somewhat disheartening experience - Should. Not. Have. Happened.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 04:16 PM |
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I would like to ask you this Stevie.
You spoke about which faction concept worked, which didn't, which is again a personal evaluetion, since some might like different versions more. But do you think a H3 necropolis concept would work today. How would you react if we would get the fallowing "A skeleton", "A Flying skeleton", a "Skeleton mage" and "A dragon skeleton.
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GenYAarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 04:30 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
@Pawek_13
@Genya
"you assume your opinion = fact & right and people who dare to think otherwise are dumb sheep." Wrong! You are putting your words into my mouth. I do not consider my opinion as a fact. Nor do I think of anybody who thinks differently a sheep. The thing is, in discussions I like argumentation. Opinion vs. opinion, all is good. Argument vs. opinion, not good. Argument vs. argument, all's good.
Quote:
The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad
excuse me, no
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 25, 2015 04:49 PM |
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Kayna said:
I'm not sure why people didn't like heroes 4. I liked it, with the main commander in battle, the game looked more like a chess match.
Except that your stacks weren't individual chess pieces, whereas your Heroes were. Furthermore, at low levels they died too easily while at later levels you didn't need creatures anymore because your Heroes had become one-man armies.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 04:54 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:58, 25 Feb 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Stevie said:
There are many ways you can implement gameplay, but there's one "Heroes formula". For example with resources, the Heroes formula is 2 common resources, 4 rare resources and gold. At this level, Heroes 6 was not part of the Heroes formula, people didn't like it, devs changed it back to how it was. That's how it works.
I would disagree here, because if you go to the roots of this, the reason isn't "the heroes formula", but the fact that something WORKS, while changing it DOESN'T, although you COULD change it - provided you make it work.
For example, with resources, it's not the plain fact that there were 6. It was the fact that every faction would need a varying amount of resources, like, one or two very much so, others on the other hand not so much - which led to some resources being in high demand, while others would stockpile, giving the Marketplace(s) food and also create the foundation for trading resources.
The reason why resources got reduced to 3 was officially, that they didn't like the fact that there were resource mines that wouldn't be contested, because later in the game a faction wouldn't have need of them all anymore.
I mean, it's not that difficult to spot the problem with that idea, is it? If you need always everything there is no surplus anywhere and therefore no trading - not to mention that it's drab and that the fact that you need all for everything makes building your towns somewhat boring and arbitrary, since you can build what you can build, period.
Which means, it's not the Heroes formula - it's simply the fact that reducing the resources to a bare minimum that everyone needs anytime is just a crappy idea, plain and simple. Based on that you could have a lot of different resource configurations and not only the 2-4 thing. You might for example have a 2-2-1, a 3-3 (adding stone as the 3rd simple resource) and so on - provided, and that's the important thing, you plan the building resources needs accordingly.
So in this case the HoMM 6 error with the resources is based on on completely faulty analysis of how to make the game better, which has been a somewhat disheartening experience - Should. Not. Have. Happened.
Sure, I was hinging more on the legacy part, but undoubtedly how well a gameplay feature works is a factor too. Ultimately it reinforces my case that analysis CAN be done and it's not just an issue of preference. People understood that Heroes 6's reduced number of resources took away from their economical decision making, that markets were not needed anymore, and that they were just doing all there could be done because it was just that streamlined.
Dave_Jame said:
I would like to ask you this Stevie.
You spoke about which faction concept worked, which didn't, which is again a personal evaluetion, since some might like different versions more. But do you think a H3 necropolis concept would work today. How would you react if we would get the fallowing "A skeleton", "A Flying skeleton", a "Skeleton mage" and "A dragon skeleton.
You're intentionally reducing them to a level where it looks absurd, when in reality it's not like that. I don't want creatures to be skeletons, I want creatures to be true to their concepts as established with the early Heroes games.
But if you really think that this is a problem of opinion, how would anyone be able to say that this vampire for example fits or doesn't fit Heroes? After all it's just preference...
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 25, 2015 05:00 PM |
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I would personally find it more hazardous for heroes to stay at the fray and have the same progression as in H4, even though the whole concept was totally flawed. The way spells and combat worked there genuinely seemed good, despite its balance issues, but would probably not work under the guise of invincible heroes.
On another note, I would love to see the possibility of maxing out a hero (as in hard level cap) quicker (say, hard level cap of 30-40).
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 25, 2015 05:15 PM |
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GenYAarikado said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
@Pawek_13
@Genya
"you assume your opinion = fact & right and people who dare to think otherwise are dumb sheep." Wrong! You are putting your words into my mouth. I do not consider my opinion as a fact. Nor do I think of anybody who thinks differently a sheep. The thing is, in discussions I like argumentation. Opinion vs. opinion, all is good. Argument vs. opinion, not good. Argument vs. argument, all's good.
Quote:
The 100-150 problematic people have at least brain to think with their head and process an information to conclude whether something is good or bad
excuse me, no
1) Using brain to think and conclude =/= fact. Pure semantics.
2) The part you quoted has nothing to do with: opinion == facts, but with the ability to rationally analyse something (and be able to provide sufficient evidence for that). The 'fact' is not even mentioned.
This said, read what thou wilt...
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 25, 2015 05:20 PM |
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What do you think about creating a mathematical model which would calculate the incidence of whining about the Ashan? This may be something quite interesting... Oh, I wish I had time to do this...
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 05:31 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
What do you think about creating a mathematical model which would calculate the incidence of whining about the Ashan? This may be something quite interesting... Oh, I wish I had time to do this...
i can calculate that for you:
it's off the charts!
OVER 9000!
the whining about Ashan is too damn high
etc. etc.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 25, 2015 05:34 PM |
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Stevie said:
But if you really think that this is a problem of opinion, how would anyone be able to say that this vampire for example fits or doesn't fit Heroes? After all it's just preference...
@Stevie
As I remember, and it is easily provable, you were very enthusiastic about new heroes until you saw Necropolis units.
Suddenly you found that issues are not only creature models but mechanic, lore, consistency with older heroes, palette, townscreens... and all this because lich isn't skeletal (and in your mind it just HAS to be) and Vampire wears armor (when it clearly MUST be wearing tuxedo!?? and MUST turn to bat when moving).
You found reasons to be dissatisfied with entire game when you laid your eyes on few creatures and didn't like them. That is pretty shallow in my book.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 05:36 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
MUST turn to bat when moving
of course it does, that's a no-brainer 
turning into mist would work too
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 25, 2015 05:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
dark-whisperer said:
MUST turn to bat when moving
of course it does, that's a no-brainer
turning into mist would work too
Oh yes, I forgot, Vampires have legs just so they can reach something on the top shelf after they fly to it  
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 05:41 PM |
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@Dark-Whiseperer: If you remember well, when H7 was first announced and Haven with Academy pages were partly revealed, I was very enthusiastic too. In my opinion all started to smell bad in the community with Sylvan and Dungeon votings already. And Necropolis reveal was just Ashan putting its balls on the table.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 25, 2015 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 17:55, 25 Feb 2015.
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@kiryu133:
But you must admit that peaks of whining about Ashan come quite regularly.  It is one of few things that you can expect to come.
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 25, 2015 05:49 PM |
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Galaad said:
In my opinion all started to smell bad in the community with Sylvan and Dungeon votings already.
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