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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 11:55 AM |
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@Dave_Jame,
If you plan to put the "preference" tag on visuals then there's really nothing you can't excuse with that. But if you go with "What inspires a Heroes atmosphere" then I think you can find grounds for debate. For example I consider Spiderpolis to not be in the spirit of Heroes but in the spirit of Ashan. To me Ashan and the idea of Heroes collide especially at a design level. The Lich not being skeletal but a prune is because of Ashan. The Vampire being an Arthas that does not "turn into bats, bla bla" is because of Ashan, the Spider theme of Spiderpolis is because of Ashan, the color-coding of factions and magic schools is because of Ashan. Everything design-wise is because of Ashan, because visuals are part of the IP. Them saying "Also, even with the modified visuals, the creatures would remain consistent with the Ashan universe." is nothing less of a confirmation of that fact.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 25, 2015 12:00 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
I would like to express my fear for the brand. Fear of the influence a few people can have. Fear how in the future it could cripple the game and everything around it.
It's not a good feeling. Believe me, I was there when it happened.
Quote:
Limits will be made in the field of creativity and stagnation will threaten the games and the worlds development. Some of these changes have been for the good. But if this will continue, I fear many factions will end-up like academy, rarely introducing something new and original.
Sure, nay-sayers may have a say in the matter,
but they don't dole out the budget.
Quote:
The problem is, when you ask people what they want they'll tell you they want exactly the same thing they already have.
Nigh perfection? Who boy, been a while since we had that...
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 12:32 PM |
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I would like to start this post by reacting to Zombi_Wizzard who said
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Yes, yes, QP worthy. Also as I stated, visuals have no effect on gameplay experience. It's nice if they are good tho. But lore can be totaly avoided if you wish. I don't read lore, and I'm fine, as I like gameplay of heroes games.
I never said vizuals are unimportant. Further more I actually praized the work of those, who stood up against the live-less town creens and reused models, even if some have done it for a different reason. It is true that vizuals are not important to gameplay, unlike mechanics and balance, but they are one of the most important aspects of something else, something even more important, our gaming experience. This experience is not only the games mechanics, but also its, vizuals, stability, sounds and many more. And vizuals are very immportant since they are the main way that shows the game to us. Unlike lore, or even sound, they can not be ignored. It is true that a game that works bad won't be saved by it's looks, but bad looks can discurage people from approaching the game in the first place.
When we talk vizual they do not have to be top-of-the-line, Detailed or expensive, they have to be coherent and pleasing.
But saing this, i would now try to react on Stivie
An interesting question has appeared. What is the spirit of heroes? What is it for you, and when did it shape?
Duiring H2, H3, H4, H5, or H6? see most of these games, and I won't hasitate to say all of them had very distinct art approaches.
H2 had the beutifull hand drawn pixelart
H3 had the slightly realistic dark approach mixed withpopular imagery
H4 had this colorfull magical somewhot mystical atmosphere
H5 had the first 3D mix of popular inspirations and themes
H6 Left that and took a more distinct High fantasy approache
Now which has the true heroes feeling? How do you plan to judge it?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
What is the spirit of heroes?
Maybe the one made by original creators and designers Tracy Iwata & Co?
Is like a cover band: some are faithful, some propose something else.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:51, 25 Feb 2015.
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In the broadest sense, Heroes 1-2-3-4 got us used with an atmosphere which we identified as being "Heroes". After Ubi took over that stopped being the case. New universe, new rules, new designs which were not true to their legacy. I already gave some examples.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 12:57 PM |
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In that case there is no reason for me to talk to you anymore about such topics. And at this second I am ashamed that you two represent us in paris. Again you used WE Stevie, again I amn not you, you are not me, people here are not we. You consider games with extremly different tones, mechanics, feelings and atmosphers as having the true feeling. You are not able to stand your ground and for the worst ask for a discussion, yet you seem not to care for opinions of others.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 25, 2015 12:59 PM |
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Sure, even if H4 in my opinion didn't live up to H2 and H3, it felt distinctly Heroes.
Having seen some of the WiP artwork for the NWC H5 though, I must wonder if it would have managed to maintain that charm.
Dave_Jame, maybe you should answer your own question?
What is the spirit of Heroes?
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 01:06 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
And at this second I am ashamed that you two represent us in paris.
Well thank you very much but I don't see where is the problem with me trying to defend the brilliant work that has been offered to us back in H2-H3 era. Verriker bringing up legacy problems is more than fair and relevant, I don't see how I can get blamed for wishing there was a better coherency between actual and previous worlds.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 01:16 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Dave_Jame, maybe you should answer your own question?
What is the spirit of Heroes?
Offcourse I can :-)
For me heroes is the feeling and the mechanics. The joy of exploration and dvelopement, the possibilities and variations. The combination of mechanical and unforseen.
That is why H4 never was a heroes game for me, and why H6 does almost not deserve this honor as well.
You see the worlds never limited the fun I had with the games. Niether is the fault of Axeoth that I disliked H4. And further more Heroes games never gave a good insight into those worlds in the first place. It were the other games, that did this much better.
I have never asked myself why the Vampires in H3 and MaM8 looked so different then those in H2 and MaM7
Why is the H3 orc green. Why did Hydras have 0 then 4 then 2 legs and more. The world is not important, if you do not plan to explore it. But heroes was usualy, atleast for me, creating my own worlds to explore.
@Galaad
I would find beutifull exaples for you in the music industry. Bu that would be a very long and off topic discussion.
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted February 25, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Sure, Ashan is not the perfect creation. For me the problem is not the fact that Ubi broke with old lore, but that Ashan is generic and predictable by itself.
I never understand why ppl jammer on about Enroth, they blew it up. Its gone. The factions and world of H4 were very different, and by the looks of the plans for NWC H5 it was going to be even more changes. No more dungeon, strange little monster vampires, warlocks and barbarians together etc. Would it have been better then Ashan? Im not so sure. Ubi wanted to create something new in light of what had been before, understandable. Perhaps not perfectly executed but at least we get numeric sequels to a game we all love. It could have been buried forever.
It has to be disheartening for the devs to wade through the endless critique coming from the community, while still holding on to their own vision of what they want to accomplish.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 01:27 PM |
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Again something I've said many times. If you want to make a continuity that have sense, you have to wholly consider what was done before.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 01:33 PM |
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properkheldar said:
It has to be disheartening for the devs to wade through the endless critique coming from the community, while still holding on to their own vision of what they want to accomplish.
but it's not the developers vision: it's ubisofts. Ubisoft is completely strangeling the IP. problems with this franchise right now aren't attributed to feel or graphics (i think the graphics/aestethics look pretty nice) but rather that the developers are forced into making a game they might not want to make. if you want heroes to recapture its essence you need to allow the developers to find one, not force direction and let them figure snow out on their own. that doesn't work. now, as far as i'm concerned this seems to have gotten better in h7 than in h6, but it's still not the developers game. Let Limbic do their thing: Ashan is silly but it's not the problem, ok? strict rules about the ip are.
basically, let Limbic come up with game, idea and all, from scratch. no, don't force Ashan or some other damn universe on them. let them figure it out themselves. If they truly are a great team it will work out.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 01:37 PM |
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Galaad said:
Again something I've said many times. If you want to make a continuity that have sense, you have to wholly consider what was done before.
But does this mean I have to fallow it blindly? That I can't explore or experiment? H4 did all of this. Created a new world at the fatal cost of the old one, lost a large portion of it's atmosphere, and drastically changed gamplay. Still you call it more coherent then H5? That it catches the spirit more. I would ask how? Why do you think so? But there has been to many pointless discussions on this topic already.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted February 25, 2015 01:38 PM |
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Because if you go on and on about how they should leave Ashan (especially now that the game is nearing alpha stage) it will be more than awkward for everyone...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 01:39 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:39, 25 Feb 2015.
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@Dave_Jame
Of course not. If you ask me, I find it 100% possible to have only new factions from scratch and keep coherency, that is not the matter. As for the discussion being pointless, I don't believe it is, even if the deck is not changed yet.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 25, 2015 01:51 PM |
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@Galaad
So what is your problem with H7? From what we know, the gameplay is very coherent to older games, the developement is very open and you yourself are soon going to paris to see the people responsible. I dare to say the game looks good as a Heroes game for now. And it actually might play like a heroes game finally. Just remember to give us some information when you will come back.
So where do you see the problem. The setting? Many will ignor the story part, and the world itself. Vizulas? Do the units look bad? Art direction? Storytelling? What, is the most important problem for you. What, and I mean this, will be the first thing you are going to discuss with Erwan when in 2 weeks you are going to see him.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 25, 2015 01:54 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
What, and I mean this, will be the first thing you are going to discuss with Erwan when in 2 weeks you are going to see him.
I am working on that. For now, I will borrow the expression from this top historian well-known of the community: "keep your pants on". 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 25, 2015 01:59 PM |
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Galaad said:
Dave_Jame said:
What, and I mean this, will be the first thing you are going to discuss with Erwan when in 2 weeks you are going to see him.
I am working on that. For now, I will borrow the expression from this top historian well-known of the community: "keep your pants on".
aw snow. do i need to put 'em on again?
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 25, 2015 02:10 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
H4 did all of this. Created a new world at the fatal cost of the old one, lost a large portion of it's atmosphere, and drastically changed gamplay. Still you call it more coherent then H5? That it catches the spirit more. I would ask how? Why do you think so?
well Heroes 4 gave Enroth an end point, but it didn't try to pretend that Enroth never existed, lol
it had a great atmosphere in its own right (every single minor point of interest on the map had immersive flavor text), and told a surprisingly soulful story about survivors finding hope after an apocalypse in my opinion
Heroes 5 had excellent gameplay, but felt dead inside in comparison lol
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 25, 2015 02:16 PM |
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@Pawek_13
I am not talking about superiority, but argumentation. People dislike something for X reason, and if their dislike or even hate is justifiable with their arguments, I see no problem. The problem is that some people criticize criticizers with no argument, and they call them a problem...
@Genya
"you assume your opinion = fact & right and people who dare to think otherwise are dumb sheep." Wrong! You are putting your words into my mouth. I do not consider my opinion as a fact. Nor do I think of anybody who thinks differently a sheep. The thing is, in discussions I like argumentation. Opinion vs. opinion, all is good. Argument vs. opinion, not good. Argument vs. argument, all's good.
@Zombie_Wizzard
"Yep this is correct in most things, but when applying this to art (writing and visual style) it dosen't work, since these things are interpreted by each individual diferently. There is no objective criteria, for basis to say that visual style is bad." It is true that everyone interprets things differently. But if there is some discussion (about writing, literature, etc.) you need to objectively present argument why do you interpret something as good, as bad or as whatever. As a critic, one should be objective.
@Dave_Jame
"What one sees as a major issue is not an issue at all for the other." That is why there are arguments.
A: Why is X thing bad?
B: It is bad because of THIS and THAT.
A: No, it's not bad!
Argument is there, whether one person accepts it or not.
"On the other hand criticism towards the reaper for me feels forced. " Wrong! It is just a culmination of badly written lore that they have restrained their own world they have created. And it grows like a tumour, that is why some people are vocal about it, they want to cut it in its roots.
"The problem is, when you ask people what they want they'll tell you they want exactly the same thing they already have." Yes, an upgrade, not change and removal of features... H1 - H6 proved that.
"What is the spirit of heroes and when did it shape?" It was shaped by H1 and the tradition continued in H2, H3 and H5. H4 is on the edge of becoming different game, H6 had the least amount of this spirit.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
