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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 19:21, 27 Feb 2015.
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dark-whisperer said:
Those guy were lost as Heroes fan base at the moment HIV was put on the shelves.
That is only your assumption.
IMO Heroes V, even after IV, didn't sell well for nothing.
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted February 27, 2015 07:23 PM |
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Hey guys! Black and Blue or White and Gold?
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 27, 2015 07:28 PM |
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Wow, that is one large picture.
Black and blue for me...
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 27, 2015 07:29 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:30, 27 Feb 2015.
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alcibiades said:
kiryu133 said:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
just keep that in mind 
Couldn't disagree more. Technology is, in my understanding of the word, a machine of contraption that works within the existing frames of physical laws to achieve an end and is as thus by definition non-magical. You could define magic as a process that's fuelled by an energy source that does not exist in our physical world.
The quote doesnt suggest it is actual magic though, it suggests it is indistinguishable from magic. (Probably what it means is, to the ones who are unaware of how that advanced technology works). A tape recorder duplicating their voice is "magic" to the tribal people of a jungle who listen to their own for the first time. (Youtube)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 27, 2015 08:07 PM |
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Valen-Teen said:
Hey guys! Black and Blue or White and Gold?
Black and blue, although the dress for me is lilac and gold.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 08:08 PM |
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Stevie said:
I don't think it falls under preference at all. Something having a "medieval fantasy" design and something else having a "high fantasy" one is not a question of preference. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to distinguish between the two. What I can do however is like one more than another, and that's what preference is. But as far as what they represent there are clear guidelines as to what is medieval fantasy and what is high fantasy.
You got it wrong, Stevie  I don't question the fact that NWC and Ubi Heroes have different designs. What I said is that there're people who like old style, new style and between-style. And that's the preference. And we return to my question "what will change", for which I got an answer "personal preference".
@Galaad
I know you as a person who sees things from different points. Why in this case you stick to the dogma that everything comes from a concept or should I say everything will stick to the concept? A concept of Heroes is TBS, plain and simple. Ashan may influence only the visual style, nothing more. Not even the music - Academy's the example. The lore and the world don't have any other impact on the game. And why do you call Ashan a concept? I don't see it as one.
And yes, I'll repeat once again that H5 was great Heroes experience to me which had part of fairytale charm. I'm the lucky person who haven't played Warhammer and only heard about it after H5. But, as I say, creature design doesn't define for me the atmosphere of Heroes. I don't care how a Vampire will look as long as it will resemble a Vampire. Or how a cyclops will look like - if it's big, bulky and one-eyed, I'll take it.
Galaad said:
I beg your pardon?
Not only I think it is easily provable these things by themselves can be bad, but also that they have a great impact on the gaming experience.
Toning down the designs or hiding them won't save the core concept.
Nope, I'm pretty sure in what I said. Like spider emblem. It is bad by itself? Nope. Did they went too far with spiders? Yep.
Btw, good or bad are subjective terms. So yeah, nothing can be bad by itself, that's what I meant.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 08:22 PM |
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Quote:
Why in this case you stick to the dogma that everything comes from a concept or should I say everything will stick to the concept?
Consistency?
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A concept of Heroes is TBS, plain and simple.
For you maybe.
I think it goes a bit deeper.
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Ashan may influence only the visual style, nothing more.
Yes, if affects the whole background as well.
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Not even the music
Thank you Paul & Rob.
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The lore and the world don't have any other impact on the game.
For people caring about visuals and background it’s 50% of the game off the table pal.
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And why do you call Ashan a concept? I don't see it as one.
You are right to correct me, a concept has a minimum of coherency. 
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I'm the lucky person who haven't played Warhammer and only heard about it after H5.
Well guess what me neither. It didn’t stop me to admit the plagiarism though.
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But, as I say, creature design doesn't define for me the atmosphere of Heroes.
And I’ve said I believe they are part of it and provided arguments to support my opinion.
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I don't care how a Vampire will look as long as it will resemble a Vampire.
Like Arthas?
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Or how a cyclops will look like - if it's big, bulky and one-eyed, I'll take it.
Good for you.
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Like spider emblem. It is bad by itself? Nope.
I thought I already told you in the appropriate thread that I considered the spider emblem to be Walt Disney worthy when it comes to Necropolis.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 08:31 PM |
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The origin of spiders with the Undeads :
Ubisoft guy A : Hey, let's copy a bit and put a spider goddess on the dark elf faction.
Ubisoft guy B : Dungeon and dragons could sue us for that.
Ubisoft guy A : Ok, let's slap the spider goddess on the undeads then?
Ubisoft guy B : Hm, yeah, sounds good, they can't sue us for that!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2015 08:37 PM |
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artu said:
alcibiades said:
kiryu133 said:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
just keep that in mind
Couldn't disagree more. Technology is, in my understanding of the word, a machine of contraption that works within the existing frames of physical laws to achieve an end and is as thus by definition non-magical. You could define magic as a process that's fuelled by an energy source that does not exist in our physical world.
The quote doesnt suggest it is actual magic though, it suggests it is indistinguishable from magic. (Probably what it means is, to the ones who are unaware of how that advanced technology works). A tape recorder duplicating their voice is "magic" to the tribal people of a jungle who listen to their own for the first time. (Youtube)
That may be, but for my immersion in the game, it does make a world of a difference. I buy it when they say Archmages has a magic attack, if they say they are armed with lazer canons, it will destroy any credibility - even if the two might look identical to a tribal person.
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What will happen now?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 27, 2015 08:44 PM |
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I wasnt aware the broader context was something like the Forge. I'm on the same page with you on that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 08:52 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
I'm refering to visuals mostly here. And you can't compare H3 to H5 or H6 if those games aren't even out yet .
Well, you should have been more specific in that post...
I'll grant you that. I was going to be more specific originaly, but I felt it's unnecesary, and made post too long so I deleted before submitting. You are right on this tho. As I have feeling that lots of times people don't get what I am trying to say, and it is completly my fault. I'm not native english speaker, and it can happen. I will try better next time. And with that....
Galaad said:
if there is one game in particular I would have to qualify as being different from the other ones, it would be Heroes IV .
Yes. And this is my point. H3 had most diferent visuals than the rest, as they were the least cartoony. But H4 had the most changes in gameplay. You are not alone who sees H4 as the most diferent game. And rightfuly so, it has the most diferent gameplay. Gameplay change th game more than just visuals.
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However, if it is right to say each and every single Heroes game has its own feel, I see a major change ever since Ubisoft helmed the rights. As you could witness, most people disliking NWC-era aesthetics love the Ubi-era ones, and vice-versa. There is also some blessed people who are not affected by one or the other, lucky them.
Guess I'm blessed  I don't know hornestly why I'm not as affected tho. One thig could be that it's because I saw all the changes, and game that looks and feels diferent, just isn't that big of a deal to me. It could be because I haven't done campaigns and read the lore (tho I'm trying to catch up since I joined the forums), or it could simply be that I over years played lots of other games, each with diferent art style and visuals ... basicaly I love HoMM, but it's not THE game to me ... guess I'm not that hardcore, which is why I joined forums so late 
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To my understanding, it means that a lot of players quite see the difference between Ubi and NWC aesthetics,
Sure. Diference between Ubi visuals and NWC visuals is drastic. But diference between H2 and H3 visuals is also quite drastic. And then we have H3 to H4 transition ... which was again quite the change. So to what NWC game are we comparing Ubi games in terms of aesthetics? H1? H3? H4?
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Some people left, some accepted to live it, some are revolted. When I say the true (yet not only one) feeling of the franchise, I mean its root, which from what it emerged. Ubisoft, instead of making the tree grow bigger, decided to cut it and plant another one, how can you expect such action to be alright towards the fan base?
Sure I get where you're coming from. But immagine this. Now this is gonna be very hard. Immagine that games before H6 didn't exist. What if H6 was the very first game (it would be called H1 ofc, but I call it H6, so no confusion). Would same fans still "rebel", and leave? Would they play it, coz they would like the core concept of game mechanics? Ofc. when new develpoers make next game, it will divide the old fans, but new ones are not effected. It is because it is literaly their first game (you can say they don't know any better). Now I started with H1. And I see H3 has much better visuals. But at the time there was no H3, so no game to compare it to. It's ultimate "take it or leave it" deal. Hence, I taught aesthetics were fine. I dind't know better.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 27, 2015 08:52 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Neraus said:
Heroes III disagrees with you...
 
There is some logic behind this design, and I like that, this way they are both armoured and generic, so as to avoid that awkward situation that happened with the previous iterations.
It also helps in the case of Chaplains and Abbots, as this way they keep the appearance of mysterious mystic figures.
And in Angels, well, Mythology says that Angels have the most odd figures as their appearance can't be understood by mere mortals, so portraying their face is quite difficult (even though in art they have human faces).
Is every soldier brown haired or blonde? Do they have a beard or not? Who knows, and that's what I like.
what about this one?
there's also the fact that the h7 haven troops look pretty damn interchangeable in portraits. face would go a long way in making them recognisable, right?
h3 looks very, very different in portraits.
Well, I feel almost the same as the swordmaster, they both are distinguishable from their face and they return to that genericizing the unit, but are all swordmasters bearded? Are all Guardians pale? That's the reason why I prefer the more armoured and faceless units.
But that's not saying that putting a face or not is a bad design IMO.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 09:10 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:56, 28 Feb 2015.
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Zombi Wizard said:
But diference between H2 and H3 visuals is also quite drastic.
Not as drastic though. The major difference between H2 and H3 visuals is that we came from hand-drawn made art to a pre-rendered one, loosing some of its charm, but the spirit remains the same, and I believe this could be easily explained by the fact is done by the same artists. Do not forget HIV was rushed as well, we never know how its gameplay could have turned out if it was developed under better conditions.
Quote:
So to what NWC game are we comparing Ubi games in terms of aesthetics? H1? H3? H4?
Every single one of them. Despite their differences, I stand my point the difference between all these four individually is not as drastic as the difference which appeared with Ashan. But really, I came to think, if this issue does not bother so much most people, why wouldn't they let complain revendicate the ones who are affected by it, if it won't have any negative impact on their personal gaming experience?
Side note: I almost never speak about gameplay much because I am not the mathematician kind, but I consider the gameplay to be just as crucial as the atmosphere.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 10:05 PM |
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@Galaad. Sure. You can complain. Dosen't bother me the slightest personaly. In fact, I even support you. I taught, only to explain my viewpoint as I'm someone who's not bothered by the Ubi aesthetics. Last post, was to clarify further, since I didn't include every point in my first post. You asked that someone explained why they see it that way, and I obliged
I think we disagree ... sure. But imo both our viewpoints are equaly valid.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 10:09 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
But imo both our viewpoints are equaly valid.
Sure, I don't pretend to have the golden truth. Thanks for discussing with me.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2015 10:14 PM |
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artu said:
I wasnt aware the broader context was something like the Forge. I'm on the same page with you on that.
Well actually it wasn't, it was the Kreegans, but for me there's not too much of a difference there, the main difference was that you could play Heroes 3 and be blissfully unaware of their lore, which would probably have been difficult with Forge, had it made the game.
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What will happen now?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 10:14 PM |
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artu said:
I wasnt aware the broader context was something like the Forge. I'm on the same page with you on that.
You people behave like children.
Let me repeat for the umptieth time that the Forge has been a brilliant idea. It symbolizes the penetration of technology into the paradize of "fantasy" - and at the same time the equality of magic and technology in a quality sense: superior weapon have no use, if they are rendered magically unusable. It's clash of worlds that would have given HoMM 3 something really great.
Now, before you start protesting, you should rather start thinking about why this "setting" would have been way beyong the limits of what you are comfortable with. This anxiety to keep an imaginary, alleged "purity" is something that speaks a couple of not so glorious volumes, if you ask me.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 10:21 PM |
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Galaad said:
Consistency?
How does consistency depend on concept? Consistency lies in a) gameplay b) lore.
Galaad said:
Yes, if affects the whole background as well.
How? Suddenly Heroes are no longer TBS? It was Ashan that reduced the nimber of resourses in H6? It was Ashan that enabled city conversation? It affects just the visuals of creatures
Galaad said:
For people caring about visuals and background it’s 50% of the game off the table pal.
Surprise-surprise, we're in minority here. Majority doesn't care at all.
Galaad said:
You are right to correct me, a concept has a minimum of coherency.
Joke aside, Ashan is just a setting, not a concept.
Galaad said:
Well guess what me neither. It didn’t stop me to admit the plagiarism though.
I accepted it too, though it was no obstacle for me to gain great Heroes experience when I played H5.
Galaad said:
And I’ve said I believe they are part of it and provided arguments to support my opinion.
Precisely. That'll be your opinion. And we come to the idea I tried to subtly suggest - everybody has his/her own opinion what is Heroes atmosphere/feeling.
Galaad said:
Like Arthas?
I don't have anything against Arthas Alucard-style Vampire, I'm Castlevania fan.
Galaad said:
I thought I already told you in the appropriate thread that I considered the spider emblem to be Walt Disney worthy when it comes to Necropolis.
I remember, but again, that's your opinion. I don't see a Spider to be Walt-Disney-ish. It's quite a good symbol, but they did went to extreme with it.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 10:33 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:34, 27 Feb 2015.
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I used the word “consistency” as a synonym of “uniformity” or “coherency”, something I fail to see between, in example, Ashan and Enroth.
Granted for the resources, accusing Ashan of them may have been taking it a bit too far.
Although it affects the visuals of creatures, lore also impacts story-telling. But again, I let the experts judge for the latter.
As in my response to Zombi, if majority doesn’t care, on which purpose would it try to hamper people who does?
I am well-aware I am only sharing my opinion, and about spiders, since we both agree it is badly used anyway, why do you keep fighting me about it?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2015 11:37 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You people behave like children.
Let me repeat for the umptieth time that the Forge has been a brilliant idea.
Clearly your idea of brilliance differs from mine. And I reserve my right to have my opinion without being called a child, thank you.
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What will happen now?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
