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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 03:56 PM |
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Quote:
I keep defending what I have spot as the main soul and spirit of the franchise
that's your personal preference of what does the "soul of the franchise" mean
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted February 27, 2015 04:01 PM |
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Galaad said:
Though I will concede Stronghold is rather OK (Core tier and Centaur are fine) compared to Necro or what I fear Dungeon and Sylvan to become. But I want to keep optimist on the yet non-revealed factions.
I think you shouldn't worry. Sylvan and Dungeon don't have such restrictive lore as Necropolis, theregore Limbic has more artistic freedom while creating them. Based on what we have seen with Haven and Academyand concept arts for Treants and Hydras I am 99.9% sure that these two factions will look fine. 
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 04:03 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Sleeping_Sun said:
True. But, tell the same thing to the people on blog who were disgusted by the spider hegemony everywhere.
I will be first to admit that factions under UBI's hand are over coherent if that makes sense.
They made sure that we can immediately recognize creature's faction and they overdone it. Color coding and to the degree factional signs depicted in every possible place (armor, townscreen).
But that was done only in HVI.
At least they are trying to make it right this time. Necro has no more sickening neon green color all over the place and lich and vampire are getting rework.
I am aware of all of that, but that was not my point. The point of my reply is to show Dave that aesthetics are indeed important and not secondary to game mechanics as he thinks. Many (old?) players are still repulsed by Ubi aesthetics and do not play the new games.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 04:05 PM |
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My graphic tastes are rather loose. I'm open for new stuff. As long as the cohesion is there, I'm all about letting the artists do their work as they please, and they are free to surprise me with new stuff.
Letting players vote at every god damn thing isn't what I consider art, however. It's mainstream-ism at a hardcore level.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 04:29 PM |
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Galaad said:
I don't want them to express them, I want them to explain them.
Nonetheless, in a way I'm on your side here, as I consider if gameplay fails the game will along.
I will explain my point of view then. It's long tho ... so be paitient ... and no skipping 
I played these games since the first one came along. Well technicaly first was King's Bounty, and I didn't play that, altho I'm sure there's some fossils here who did. To me one feature has remained constant to all of them. And that was gameplay. Stories change, playerbases aswell, preferences come and go, and art changes aswell. To me this new style that H6 introduced is just one of many in the past. Almost every new game, apart from H2, and now H7 had diferent art style.
Yet gameplay remains prety much constant. Not to say certain parts didn't evolve over time, and new changes, albeit small were introduced over the years, to keep it in line with modern standards, the core (that is turn based strategy, with slight exploration elemnts and battlemap mode, when you meet oponent) remains the same.
A lot of people, when they talk "old atmosphere", they actualy mean H3 atmosphere. I agree H3 had distinct atmosphere, but H3 was exception, and not a rule. Now H3 is my favourite game of series. I even went so far as to say, it cannot be surpassed. However H3 also is the most "different" game in entire series.
I can not say that I consider H3 "classic" heroes game even. Is H1 "the classic"? ... you could say that, but H1 wasn't realy that good hornestly. H2 surpassed it, while still remained "the same". So is then H2 classic? Some would rightfully say yes. But H3 is way different.
I will say this. H3 didn't come with mission to surpass H2. It instead takes new spin on things, while maintaining the same lore. H3 was a great game on it's own, independent of H2. H2 was a peak of the series. H3 was another peak, and some would say H5 was yet another (even tho I would say it's just H3 remake but whatever, it was good game)
This is why I personaly can't pinpoint a single visual style and say that, this is the "true" heroes style. or that is the "original" style. To me no game in series has that "defining" atmosphere. Almost every game has diferent atmosphere. H6 and H7 stuff is just a new incarnation of heroes games, that has a new distinct visual style to it. Just like H1 and H2 had it's own visual style.
I remember still there were people back in the day, who claimed H3 sucks compared H2, as it dosen't have the same "feeling" to it that first 2 games had. It's all realtive, and it is all dependant from each individuals point of view, when it comes to define what is the "tr00" HoMM experience.
H2 happened. H3 happened aswell. We all enjoyed them. And you can still enjoy them. H7 will not take them away. I say it's new time. Time for new people to come and say "H7 is the classic". "Ashan has the true atmosphere". It's time for game to shape new peoples views. Because for some of them this will be first game. But what will make them enjoy it? It will ultimately be the gameplay. People try new games based on the gameplay, and not the graphics. And if H7 will succed this, I take my hat off to Ubi.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 04:58 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
However H3 also is the most "different" game in entire series.
Beg your pardon? Did heroes fight there? Were war machines absent? Were rare resources absent? Were the towns merged? Is there a Mage Guild? In other words what the heck are you talking about? Different than H1 and H2 in some aspects, yes. The most different game, no.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
I say it's new time. Time for new people to come and say "H7 is the classic". "Ashan has the true atmosphere". It's time for game to shape new peoples views. Because for some of them this will be first game. But what will make them enjoy it? It will ultimately be the gameplay. People try new games based on the gameplay, and not the graphics.
1) If you didn't noticed many people are criticizing games because they want them to be good.
2) Some people try new games 'cause of graphics others 'cause of gameplay. If you do not believe me, search comment sections of various game sites, youtube, forums, etc.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 27, 2015 05:22 PM |
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Neraus said:
Heroes III disagrees with you...
 
There is some logic behind this design, and I like that, this way they are both armoured and generic, so as to avoid that awkward situation that happened with the previous iterations.
It also helps in the case of Chaplains and Abbots, as this way they keep the appearance of mysterious mystic figures.
And in Angels, well, Mythology says that Angels have the most odd figures as their appearance can't be understood by mere mortals, so portraying their face is quite difficult (even though in art they have human faces).
Is every soldier brown haired or blonde? Do they have a beard or not? Who knows, and that's what I like.
what about this one?
there's also the fact that the h7 haven troops look pretty damn interchangeable in portraits. face would go a long way in making them recognisable, right?
h3 looks very, very different in portraits.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 05:49 PM |
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Zombi Wizard,
I thank you for your post.
I agree that each and every single entry of a Heroes game in the franchise as a whole has its own and unique flavor. To be perfectly honest, if there is one game in particular I would have to qualify as being different from the other ones, it would be Heroes IV (considering HVI is a heresy which should never have had happened).
Quote:
H5 was yet another (even tho I would say it's just H3 remake but whatever, it was good game)
I think this is the key sentence of our disagreement.
It is true that HV is built on mechanics which are very close to HIII, and I can see how some would consider it as a simple remake ; despite a few things like the town building or magic systems, most mechanics which can allegedly be considered as core ones remained the same, and some like the skill wheel even got an improvement.
However, if it is right to say each and every single Heroes game has its own feel, I see a major change ever since Ubisoft helmed the rights. As you could witness, most people disliking NWC-era aesthetics love the Ubi-era ones, and vice-versa. There is also some blessed people who are not affected by one or the other, lucky them.
To my understanding, it means that a lot of players quite see the difference between Ubi and NWC aesthetics, and I cannot deny favoring one over the other wouldn’t be subjective. When I say Ubi burnt the ancient worlds, is precisely because the change in artistic direction was no subtle at all, more of a “take it or leave it” approach, IMO. Some people left, some accepted to live it, some are revolted. When I say the true (yet not only one) feeling of the franchise, I mean its root, which from what it emerged. Ubisoft, instead of making the tree grow bigger, decided to cut it and plant another one, how can you expect such action to be alright towards the fan base?
____________
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 27, 2015 06:10 PM |
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When UBI bought franchise Heroes got renamed.
Putting words Might and Magic in front and creating Ashan was first step in creating entire line of games based in same universe. A brand new games in brand new universe. I mean just look at their website.
That's why the tree had to be cut down, but the tree already died with NWC and I don't blame them for cutting it, in fact it was smart business move.
Only way for UBI to keep that "feeling" from previous Heroes intact was to rehire entire team that worked on this franchise since the beginning. I guess that wasn't even possible by the time they bought franchise.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 06:12 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:19, 27 Feb 2015.
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Quote:
Only way for UBI to keep that "feeling" from previous Heroes intact was to rehire entire team that worked on this franchise since the beginning.
Kobalt's art begs to differ.
dark-whisperer said:
I guess that wasn't even possible by the time they bought franchise.
You don't know that. What we do know however is they ultimately decided to scrap the early work of NWC for HV, so I see a Ubi-NWC collaboration totally possible at that time.
Also, I don't agree it was a smart business move to dismiss the already existing fan base and seek for another one.
____________
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 06:14 PM |
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@alcibiades
Maurice's post had to do with the bad way of incorporating SF elements into a pure? fantasy environment. And with that I agree. NWC was maybe a bit too late to include it.
But is the concept itself bad? I don't think so. You say that it belongs to different mindset. But with this I have to disagree. SF and fantasy have a lot in common, since both are dealing with fantastic beings, objects and notions. Heroes games could even be seen as soft sf while M&M could be see as hard sf. SF is not always about technology. However, I would categorize HOMM as science fantasy. 
Now let's explore Heroes of F&SF. Erwan might not like/want SF in Ashan but it is actually present there whether he noticed or not (some of this may actually apply to NWC games as well):
 The help of lore experts is highly appreciated: Avonu, Sandro400, WO, and few others that I might have not named them.
1) A time setting in the future, in alternative timelines, or in a historical past that contradicts known facts of history or the archaeological record.
 
2) A spatial setting or scenes in outer space (e.g. spaceflight), on other worlds, or on subterranean earth.
-Ashan – "our" world,
-Void – as space, an alternative world, or dimension?
-Underground (Ygg Chal, Abyss & Grimheim) – everything should be clear,
-Sea realm of Nagas,
-Spirit world – alternative world/dimension?
*Do not forget Asha's travel to the Moon to heal (fantastical/lunar voyages)
3) Characters that include aliens, mutants, androids, or humanoid robots and other types of characters arising from a future human evolution.
-Avatar of the Void – alien form the void?
-Orcs and Beastman smell of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, a typical scientific experimentation,
-Wizards – of course (atheistic) (mad) scientists
-Gargoyle, Golem, Titan – robots? or they are animated constructs which smells of Frankenstein again?
4) Futuristic or plausible technology such as ray guns, teleportation machines, and humanoid computers
-Teleport portals/gates – as clear as day
-Pyramids shooting rays of whatever
5) Scientific principles that are new or that contradict accepted physical laws, for example time travel, wormholes, or faster-than-light travel or communication.
-Ashan laws vs Void laws? Sandro could say a thing or two here
6) New and different political or social systems, e.g. dystopian, post-scarcity, or post-apocalyptic. [any SF is set between utopia and dystopia]
-After the Mythic age the world was divided into spiritual and physical realms. Spirit realm is utopian, while physical is dystopian, and it will be more when the hell is set lose (literally)
-Ashan social system vs Sheog social syste,
Of course, we might pay individual realms (Irollan, etc.) but I'll not nit pick.
7) Paranormal abilities such as mind control, telepathy, telekinesis, and teleportation.
-Teleportation
-Was Anastasya mindcontroled by Jorgen/Uriel?
-Anastasya raises a figurine during H7 trailer?
8) Other universes or dimensions and travel between them
-Ashan, Void, Spirit world (again)
-Sar-Elam's travel through the spirit world to meet Asha
-Sandro's Travel throughout the Void
- 7
- 1
It's good that Erwan shaves his head regularly so he will not pull it out when he realizes this. As I said SF and Fantasy are much closer than people actually think and realize. 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 27, 2015 06:19 PM |
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"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
just keep that in mind 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 27, 2015 06:20 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:21, 27 Feb 2015.
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@Galaad & Dark-whisperer
The problem is the original Heroes tradition died out (as in no offical sequels) with their decision and that's what pisses the old fan base off. That's why there are so many custom expansions to H3, the possibilites from that concept was so rich, people felt like someone had to continue.
Nobody would react to H4 or H6 and to a degree H5 this much, had there been something going on with the old tradition as well and the so-called sequels were simply a different franchise instead.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 06:21 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
just keep that in mind
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 27, 2015 06:29 PM |
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Galaad said:
You don't know that. What we do know however is they ultimately decided to scrap the early work of NWC for HV, so I see a Ubi-NWC collaboration totally possible at that time.
Also, I don't agree it was a smart business move to dismiss the already existing fan base and seek for another one.
NWC didn't exist when UBI bought franchise.
Why would UBI seek another developer if they had half done game and developer that started it available to them?
It only make sense that you don't use resources from half finished game with different developer.
It always takes more time to finish something that someone else started then to start from scratch. Especially without JVC. I can only imagine the horror that HV would be if Nival got those resources to make the game.
And they didn't dismiss existing fan base. We are still here, aren't we?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 06:41 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
Zombi_Wizzard said:
However H3 also is the most "different" game in entire series.
Beg your pardon? Did heroes fight there? Were war machines absent? Were rare resources absent? Were the towns merged? Is there a Mage Guild? In other words what the heck are you talking about? Different than H1 and H2 in some aspects, yes. The most different game, no.
I'm refering to visuals mostly here. And you can't compare H3 to H5 or H6 if those games aren't even out yet . H3 had a lot of diferent feel than H2. And I would argue H4 went back "to the roots" with it's artistic style... but still had it's own visual version.
Here is what I mean: All games have cartoony art design, except H3. H3 art reminds me more on Mortal Kombat (the original series not new games) style personaly ... if that makes sence to you. It seemed kinda.... photo ralistic almost.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
I say it's new time. Time for new people to come and say "H7 is the classic". "Ashan has the true atmosphere". It's time for game to shape new peoples views. Because for some of them this will be first game. But what will make them enjoy it? It will ultimately be the gameplay. People try new games based on the gameplay, and not the graphics.
1) If you didn't noticed many people are criticizing games because they want them to be good.
2) Some people try new games 'cause of graphics others 'cause of gameplay. If you do not believe me, search comment sections of various game sites, youtube, forums, etc.
Yes people play strategy games because the like FPS or Football games. No. If they don't like strategy games, they won't like heroes, because of graphics. I personaly don't like point and click adventures. I never play them, no matter how they look. Look is irrelevant if I don't like gameplay model. Yes I'm talking about totaly diferent generes here. But this is what I meant. You are interested in certain game because it has gameplay that you like. That's the first thing you consider.
Also tell me where I said I'm oposed to criticism. No where. Besides basic point of the post was to explain MY PERSONAL VIEWPOINT to Galaad, since he said he would like to see explanation from someone who's ok with Ashan, or who dosen't care about the looks and why. In no point do I assume this is anyone's opinion BUT MY OWN.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 27, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
I'm refering to visuals mostly here. And you can't compare H3 to H5 or H6 if those games aren't even out yet .
Well, you should have been more specific in that post...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 07:02 PM |
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dark-whisperer said:
Why would UBI seek another developer if they had half done game and developer that started it available to them?
I'd like to have the answer to that one too.
Quote:
And they didn't dismiss existing fan base. We are still here, aren't we?
Huh, no. Majority of the old-fan base hangs out at WoG and other sections of the forum, not at the "H7 spamming area".
____________
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 27, 2015 07:06 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
just keep that in mind
Couldn't disagree more. Technology is, in my understanding of the word, a machine of contraption that works within the existing frames of physical laws to achieve an end and is as thus by definition non-magical. You could define magic as a process that's fuelled by an energy source that does not exist in our physical world.
But anyway, that's sort of a sidetrack to the other topic - about the whole alien thing, it is for me simply a matter of choice of words. If you call a creature extraplanar that is for me not a problem in a fantasy setting, whereas the word alien for me belongs in a sci-fi setting and creates a clash with a fantasy setting. I know this is 100 % a subjective oppinion, but that's none-the-less how I feel.
____________
What will happen now?
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted February 27, 2015 07:16 PM |
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Galaad said:
Huh, no. Majority of the old-fan base hangs out at WoG and other sections of the forum, not at the "H7 spamming area".
Those guy were lost as Heroes fan base at the moment HIV was put on the shelves.
*EDIT*
@Alci
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
its 3rd of Clarke's three laws.
If a technology is so advanced or the person is so ignorant that he cannot even begin to understand how it works then its effect is often attributed to magic.
I think that is what it was meant by that sentence.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
