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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 27, 2015 11:30 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
ABut other factions or individual creatures have in my opinion benefited from Ashan's presence.
To avoid any potential questions I think some of them are these
Haven (As it is presented in H7)
partly agree except...
can we get some faces in here? no?
ok 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 11:47 AM |
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I think time has come for me to ask one magical question for which I never received any real answer from any Ubi/Ashan hater (it's popular now that if you hate the company, you should hate it's pet world as well):
What will suddenly change if the setting will return to the Old universe?
What, the storytelling will improve?
What, they won't make Enroth/Axeoth/put-another-world artstyle more high-fantasy in order to invite new people? (that means "more decorated")
What, they won't make retcons here and there?
What, they won't decide to simply make another new world created by Ancients that will be 95% Ashan?
Or, wait, you really want all this cool sci-fi elements in Heroes against which community once rioted? (With all due respect to the fans who played both TBS and RPG branches.)
That's a short list of things. Precisely nothing will really change. It may even become a terrible mistake, because it seems that the only one at Ubi who is well-versed in NWC-lore is Marzhin. One man, imo, simply isn't enough to follow all this massive of lore and check the game for consistency (heck, they have whole team for just one Ashan). With all due respect to Marzhin.
You will just get the same candy in different wrapper, as we say. I even dare say that I became rather grateful for having the old universe unscathed at the time of H5.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 11:51 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
What will suddenly change if the setting will return to the Old universe?
Nothing. Is not about getting back to the old universe, is about having a universe which isn't silly. Maybe you want to read my answers to Dave Jame and Dark-Whisperer back, I think I made my issues with Ashan pretty clear there.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 11:53 AM |
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Galaad said:
Nothing. Is not about getting back to the old universe, is about having a universe which isn't silly.
So, personal preference. Thank you.
P.S.: NWC too made some silly stuff. And what makes you believe that Ubi won't do silly things to the Old universe? Remember: they like retcons. And "silly" is a subjective term.
P.P.S.: heck, I posted this in general discussion, Should have been in another thread Is there a way to correct my mistake or it's ok to continue here? Sorry 
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 11:55 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:01, 27 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
So, personal preference. Thank you.
Galaad said:
The problem is that some players gets a feeling that the H1-H4 had a peculiar aura that has gone missing with Ubisoft’s arrival.
Galaad said:
Ashan is a concept as a whole, and with it goes not only story-telling and lore, but also the atmosphere and all that comes with it. I think most will agree that Ashanian designs are overly decorated, and if the Lich has an ugly spider on its back, you know where it’s coming from. What I am trying to say since forever is, Ashan is what hinders the original feel.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 11:59 AM |
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Galaad said:
The problem is that some players gets a feeling that the H1-H4 had a peculiar aura that has gone missing with Ubisoft’s arrival.
Sandro400 said:
So, personal preference. Thank you.
Something changed?  It's personal preference no matter how you look at it. This feeling also fits nostalgia quite well, but I won't risk bringing verriker into our discussion.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 11:59 AM |
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Would've been nice to see some decent non-over-the-top architecture again.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 12:01 PM |
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 12:05 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Would've been nice to see some decent non-over-the-top architecture again.
I agree. What are the chances that Ubi won't do over-the-top architecture in Enroth, for example?
Stevie said:
If it's a question of preference then you can excuse anything. Even twilight Edward vampires or Giant Dung of Death cyclopses.
But what is it if not personal preference? I'm really interested in answers.
There're people who're OK with Ashan and those who're not. Just like with any other thing (50 shades comes to mind).
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 12:09 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 12:09, 27 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
I agree. What are the chances that Ubi won't do over-the-top architecture in Enroth, for example?
Boy is you ever a one-track mind.
Or is H7 taking place in Enroth and everyone just forgot to tell me?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 12:14 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Boy is you ever a one-track mind.
Or is H7 taking place in Enroth and everyone just forgot to tell me?
I'm not sure I understood you quite well. Can you rephrase?
The point is: even if you return to the old universe with it's beautiful architecture, the team will remain to be the same. As well as the company. And I'm really doubtful they won't "slightly" alter the artstyle.
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 12:17 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
The point is: even if you return to the old universe with it's beautiful architecture, the team will remain to be the same. As well as the company. And I'm really doubtful they won't "slightly" alter the artstyle.
Who said anything about any old universe? You did.
All I said is some actual arcitecture would've been preferable for a change.
Of course it's not gonna happen this time.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 12:20 PM |
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@Sandro400
Allow me
Avrisob expressed his wish to se some more realistic and less megalomanic, overdetaild architecture. Which was more typical for older games (not that it would be 100% realistic in them, just not as over the top as we have now in some cases (Necropolis again)
He did not express his concerns about the influence of the current style on the old worlds, if a return to them would be made
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted February 27, 2015 12:22 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Who said anything about any old universe? You did.
All I said is some actual arcitecture would've been preferable for a change.
Of course it's not gonna happen this time.
Or. Forgive me, I thought your post was reffered to "what will change after the switch" ('cos "normal" architecture fits old universe).
My bad, I'm really sorry ^^
Not over-the-top architecture seems to slowly regain ground, after Witcher, Darks Souls etc. Maybe in the future we will see normal shoulderplates again 
Dave_Jame thanks! Sorry for misunderstanding
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 27, 2015 12:32 PM |
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Quote:
It's personal preference no matter how you look at it.
You people keep thinking I am defending my personal preference when this is not what I am doing. If HOMM was born with Ashan, I wouldn’t say anything.
I keep defending what I have spot as the main soul and spirit of the franchise, and IMO Ashan burnt it in flames. I came to understand most players don’t really care about that, and even don’t realize it. Whatever visuals are offered them, they will accept it, because “graphics are so not important”. Wrong. As I already shouted, Heroes of Might and Magic used to be different than some other successful brands, because of that very own and unique feel that was lost with Ashan, and is my firm conviction that Ubisoft did do some damage to it. Even if I LIKED Ashan it wouldn’t change that fact. My preference is not about what I like, but about what I think should be respected and honored as such. Nostalgia has nothing to do with that. To take a side example, my favorite Zelda game is The Adventure of Link (the second one) and I still think what came after was truly awesome, even with 3D, even if Link never got to earn XP again, nor did I ever was bothered with Twilight Princess setting. This is because the changes brought to this franchise, no matter how they were, didn’t harm the original soul. I am very attached to this notion, and I think it goes beyond a simple “personal preference”. Is like these music bands, who did tremendous stuff in their early years and started to loose themselves with success and money, and then, newcomers who likes the new stuff, will label as “nostalgic fanboys” people outraged by the transformation. This is exactly what is happening with Heroes (“you guys really have to stop to live in the past, I enjoyed MMH3 just as much as you did”, lol, credibility = zero).
I never said Ashan didn’t bring up a few good things along, Fortress and Sanctuary for instance, I’m fine with (even if the H5 Fortress could have had lesser dwarven units and Sanctuary avoid an Elite tier replicate). I am saying Ashan didn’t respect in the slightest what was done before and therefore failed the legacy of the series.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 12:41 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
My bad, I'm really sorry ^^
Not over-the-top architecture seems to slowly regain ground, after Witcher, Darks Souls etc. Maybe in the future we will see normal shoulderplates again
No offense taken. And yes, normal shoulderplates would indeed be very cool further down the line.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 27, 2015 12:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:56, 27 Feb 2015.
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Sandro400 said:
Stevie said:
If it's a question of preference then you can excuse anything. Even twilight Edward vampires or Giant Dung of Death cyclopses.
But what is it if not personal preference? I'm really interested in answers.
There're people who're OK with Ashan and those who're not. Just like with any other thing (50 shades comes to mind).
People can be OK with absurd things and claim preference. That doesn't make it any less absurd. Edward vampire and Giant Dung of Death cyclops examples are what is called "reductio ad absurdum", when people accept what is absurd you can safely disregard their opinion.
In the case of Heroes this is what we had with 1-4: A medieval fantasy setting. There were different art styles, cartoonish, classic, plastic, but they all had the same design orientation, medieval fantasy.
With Heroes 5 and 6 we had not only different art style but also a different design direction, towards high fantasy. Heroes 6 especially took this to extreme levels, with everything feeling so magical and stuff that it was almost alien (remember Necro TS and people's reactions?). Heroes 7, most notably in the case of Haven, returned to the medieval fantasy design save for some few elements, and that's why people like it more. Necropolis on the other hand is the same high fantasy stuff, with neon green pools, same alien structures, and now even spider legs. You would never expect that from a medieval orientation. Not only that, but it goes to show on the creatures too. They are overly decorated with spikes and chains and have some features that are not only useless but also intrusive, like spider legs coming off their backs and symbolism affecting designs (see the upgraded skellie shield, you can easily break that in two because someone desperately wanted it to follow the spider pattern).
So, no, it's not subjective preference, it's about something quantifiable. If you like it or not changes nothing, it can only confuse you into accepting something as "Heroes" when it actually isn't, or at the very least not as established with the original iterations.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 01:11 PM |
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@Galaad
The problem is Galaad that many people, such as myself, feel that the legacy and feel of old games lies in the gameplay, more than art design. The reason why H4 was fail for me were mechanics, not art design or coherence, The reason H6 failed in my eyes were again mechanics, not art design. The reason I prefer H2 over any newer game are mechanics, (and art design, since H2 was the last one with original art approach :-P)
To say it simply, even if some games like H2 or H3 had a unique art feel that transcended time, it was not the spirit of the game. The mechanics and the "just one more turn" addiction were.
One of the most vocal points is that Ashan influences the creativity by its presence. And if this influence might by over the top in some, mostly religious factions (read necropolis, H6 haven) other factions were allowed to grow by it.
Again I will list the 4 factions I did last page, Academy, Inferno, stronghold, H7 haven. I would like to know if you think these factions were limited in the impact of their general feel by Ashan. Or if in some cases, the presence of Ashan isn't beneficial for them.¨
I felt for a long time that M&M is very Necro-centred. The fan base is very attracted to this side, and the devs have the need to put them in every game they create. This on one side explains the strong feelings, but on the other side makes mi wish for an undead-free game for once.
There have been a lot of bad things said about Ashan, many at right, but I think right now. Some of us should highlight the good parts. Ashan is like an addicted person trying to make his life better. You can't just bash him for the bad things it done, but also highlight the good ones so it knows which way to go.
@Stevie
Actually it is objective and only can accounted by a statistical vote. Since for example for me, again, H4 was more magical, unrealistic and un-immersive then H6 with all its shiny lights and naked elemental woman. The over presence of random creatures that felt out of place. Like white tigers and wolves. berserkers next to nomads etc. It just didn't have the feeling. It felt artificial. And the game didn't even feel medieval. It felt like some distant mystical dark age setting from Connan, far away from the older games. Please don't let me slide to my H4 hate again. I had enough of that yesterday.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 27, 2015 01:19 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
The reason I prefer H2 over any newer game are mechanics, (and art design, since H2 was the last one with original art approach :-P)
You've never heard of Larry Elmore?
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted February 27, 2015 01:25 PM |
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Avirosb said:
You've never heard of Larry Elmore?
Surprisingly no, unlike many of his colleagues his name never stuck in my head, Even though I know his art. Maybe due to the fact, that D&D is not the main RPG format in my country, and I never played MtG much.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
