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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 06:30 PM |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 28, 2015 06:32 PM |
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When it comes right down to it, sci-fi is a sub-category in fantasy.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 06:40 PM |
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Edited by artu at 18:51, 28 Feb 2015.
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Avirosb said:
When it comes right down to it, sci-fi is a sub-category in fantasy.
It absolutely isnt.
@Sleeping Sun
Fantasy can be involved in technology ( a catapult is technology too), sci-fi cant have magic. So the quote is still fantasy. Yes, sci-fi doesnt have to be focusing on technological progress (it's usually much more political than that anyway) but it takes place in a universe where things are explained with natural phenomenon. It can involve imaginary advanced physics but that physics is something explored by its fictional scientists, not magic.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 06:43 PM |
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Stevie said:
Is an Enchanted Fortress a sci-fi motif?
No, but read what you quote. These are SF motifs:
1) Space/Void/Ether/Whatever travel: the ability to Travel along the Twisting Nether
2) Wormholes/black holes/etc.: travel almost instantaneously
3) space ship: nether-ship
4) mothership: Tempest Keep as a "mother saucer (with a) bunch of little saucers [Exodar] playing around it"
5) travel between dimensions: dimension-traveling
6) teleportation: teleports
7) existence of alternative realities: alternate realities
Even its wikia page has things like (quotes):
1) the structure itself possesses the technology to teleport through alternate dimensions, traveling from one location to another in the blink of an eye.
2) Prince Kael'thas and his blood elves quickly raided the dimensional fortress and assumed control over its satellite structures.
3) Kael’thas manipulates the keep’s otherworldly technologies
4) Though Kael’thas and his minions maintain a tight hold on the keep, a band of Draenei hijacked one of its satellite structures, the Exodar, and used it to escape Outland. [Mothership and minor ships]
So yes, it is SF!!!
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 06:45 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
You shouldn't have to buy a book to understand the story of a game 
but you should one have one if you're going to make a sequel of that story. Unless you think that every writer spending years playing and memorizing all the games is viable ofc
artu said:
@Genya
Magic doesnt turn into sci-fi when you define it as some energy source, in some lore magic can be more straight forwardly mystical and in some lore it can be more chemical (witches with their boilers and their secret formulas), however, it's still different than sci-fi elements that are completely technological.
thick wooden plank. Magic becomes sci fi when it is defined as science and determined by laws, formulae and maths which is kinda what Kalec explanation lead to. The universe of Warcraft doesnt have "magic", it has fundamental energies which with study their inhabitants can tap into. The majority of the inhabitants of Azeroth just havent realized that magic is science is yet (like, y'know, in the NWC worlds Heroes games)
Frankly i dont see what point are you even trying to make now, other than mindlessly opposing me. In the end my point stands solidly
Quote:
High tech aliens falling from the sky is a sci fi troop. Warcraft succesfully adapted the trope and made it blend well in a fantasy world. The forge on the other hand clashes heavily with the rest of the world it was in.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 06:50 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:51, 28 Feb 2015.
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Ashan too has other dimensions (Spirit World, the Veil, The Void, the Netherworld) and teleport/instant travel and it is not a sci-fi universe. What do you make of that?
And how do you explain the phrase "enchanted fortress" if it's ultimately a high tech sci-fi ship?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 06:50 PM |
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here's a headscratcher for ya: star wars is fantasy in a "sci-fi" setting.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 06:52 PM |
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artu said:
Avirosb said:
When it comes right down to it, sci-fi is a sub-category in fantasy.
It absolutely isnt.
Actually, yes it is.
@Sleeping Sun
Fantasy can be involved in technology, sci-fi cant have magic. So the quote is still fantasy. Yes, sci-fi doesnt have to be focusing on technological progress (it's usually much more political than that anyway) but it takes place in a universe where things are explained with natural phenomenon. It can involve imaginary advanced physics but that physics is something explored by its fictional scientists, not magic.
If Fantasy involves a scientific progress it is a motif of SF. But, if there are both SF and Fantasy than the work should be classified as SCIENCE FANTASY, since it is more ACCURATE. Also, technology isn't typical of fantasy. And SF can have magic: telepathy, mind-domination, and similar paranormal abilities, which are not yet (rationally) explainable and possible.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 06:53 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
here's a headscratcher for ya: star wars is fantasy in a "sci-fi" setting.
You know, I just read somewhere something along the lines, that Warcraft is a fantasy setting with some sci-fi elements.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 06:54 PM |
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The word "setting" can be misleading since some can associate it with the plot (and so the structure), I prefer to call it sci-fi decor.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 06:56 PM |
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Stevie said:
Ashan too has other dimensions (Spirit World, the Veil, The Void, the Netherworld) and teleport/instant travel and it is not a sci-fi universe. What do you make of that?
I know that, I said that few pages ago. That is why it should be categorized as SCIENCE FANTASY. Fantasy + sf = science fantasy.
Quote:
And how do you explain the phrase "enchanted fortress" if it's ultimately a high tech sci-fi ship?
As I said in the above quote: science fantasy
Fantsay and SF in the past were not so treated differently (for the right and good reasons) but then were separated, however, (and then God) they are again beginning to merge.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 06:59 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:59, 28 Feb 2015.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 06:59 PM |
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Stevie said:
kiryu133 said:
here's a headscratcher for ya: star wars is fantasy in a "sci-fi" setting.
You know, I just read somewhere something along the lines, that Warcraft is a fantasy setting with some sci-fi elements.
that's cool and all but frankly i don't give a rats ass about warcraft tbh. sorry if that comes off as rude but WC really doesn't interest me. besides, couldn't you call heroes sci-fi with fantasy elements?
think about it
just thought i bring it up for some reference or whatever. serve the discussion in some way.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 07:00 PM |
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artu said:
The word "setting" can be misleading since some can associate it with the plot (and so the structure), I prefer to call it sci-fi decor.
Setting is a location of something. It is something through which a genre of a work can be identified. Next to the setting there are also characters and themes that help to identify a genre. So, Setting can be SF decor, fantasy decor, realistic decor, etc.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:06, 28 Feb 2015.
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@sleeping Sun
Sci Fi indeed can have these things such as telepathy or mind domination but unlike fantasy, it doesnt explain them with magical powers but fictional technology or alternative physics, I already gave the example of time travel, there is a difference between the time travel of HG Wells and the time travel of Harry Potter.
I'm sorry but if you claim sci-fi is a sub category of fantasy, you dont know much about it. Wiki
And Star Wars is fantasy with Sci Fi decor, I already explained why it is so a few pages back.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 28, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Agreed, Sci-Fi and Fantasy are both fiction but they are definitely not the same genre, even if they are fairly closely related.
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What will happen now?
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 07:11 PM |
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artu said:
Sci Fi indeed can have these things such as telepathy or mind domination but unlike fantasy, it doesnt explain them with magical powers but fictional technology or alternative physics, I already gave the example of time travel, there is a difference between the time travel of HG Wells and the time travel of Harry Potter.
Wrong. It is not explained by technology but with a rational cognition - an important difference mind you. Time travel will always be SF motif even though it is used by Fantasy nowadays as well. It may be a different realization, but it is still SF element. Or do you want to say that if SF starts using elves they will become SF thing? 
Quote:
I'm sorry but if you claim sci-fi is a sub category of fantasy, you dont know much about it. Wiki
Fantasy is unreal and supernatural. SF is unreal but natural which means, SF could happen, fantasy couldn’t thus all SF is fantasy but not all fantasy is SF.
Quote:
And Star Wars is fantasy with Sci Fi decor, I already explained why it is so a few pages back
Not quite...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 07:15 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:15, 28 Feb 2015.
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Just read this on Wiki - WoW.
World of Warcraft is set in the same universe as the Warcraft series of real-time strategy games, and has a similar art direction. World of Warcraft contains elements from fantasy, steampunk, and science fiction: such as gryphons, dragons, and elves; steam-powered automata; zombies, werewolves, and other horror monsters; as well as time travel, spaceships, and alien worlds.
I think this is clear enough. I've read other sources saying the same.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 07:20 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:23, 28 Feb 2015.
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@ Sleeping Su
I'm saying it is not the happening (time travel, vampires or flying) but the explanation that determines whether its sci fi or fantasy, so a time travel story can indeed be purely fantastic if they do it through supernatural powers.
Biological virus turning people into blood sucking corpses is although pretty unbelievable and lame, a sci fi explanation.
Tortured count who sold his soul to Satan, turning immortal and cursed into living at nights sucking blood is a fantasy explanation.
And please dont "not quite" me on StarWars, I've actually read studies about why it's fantasy in collage during a course directly about what science fiction is.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 28, 2015 07:20 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
SF is unreal but natural which means, SF could happen, fantasy couldn’t thus all SF is fantasy but not all fantasy is SF.
That is not the only creteria, however. For instance, if you look up "Fantasy" on wikipedia you will find this definition:
Quote:
Fantasy is a genre of fiction that commonly uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme, or setting. Many works within the genre take place in imaginary worlds where magic and magical creatures are common. Fantasy is generally distinguished from the genres of science fiction and horror by the expectation that it steers clear of scientific and macabre themes, respectively, though there is a great deal of overlap between the three, all of which are subgenres of speculative fiction.
Now obviously classification of literary genres is not an exact science, but this definition does match my understanding of these things.
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What will happen now?
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