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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 28, 2015 07:23 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 19:25, 28 Feb 2015.
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Stevie said:
Just read this on Wiki - WoW.
World of Warcraft is set in the same universe as the Warcraft series of real-time strategy games, and has a similar art direction. World of Warcraft contains elements from fantasy, steampunk, and science fiction: such as gryphons, dragons, and elves; steam-powered automata; zombies, werewolves, and other horror monsters; as well as time travel, spaceships, and alien worlds.
I think this is clear enough. I've read other sources saying the same.
Was that a surprise?
I for one preferred the old atmosphere old the first two games when the orcs were evil and brutal while humans were chivalrous and holy.
But steam automatons weren't news in Warcraft III, they already added some kind of steam robots to be available to the game, and in addition as an easter egg there were terran and orc marines and hydralisks so, take that as you want.
Also, they had churches with crosses and that made me think as a kid that they were Christians, now though I understood that they worship some kind of light deity...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 07:29 PM |
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so to get to the bottom of this we need to define what "sci-fi" and "fantasy" is, am i right?
super-quick-non-deep-snow-explanations, GO!
"sci-fi" or "sience-fiction" are stories or whatever using future science or technology in order to tell something.
"fantasy" is more or less stories usually involving magic or monsters or similar (though not necessarily) and is mostly separated from "sci-fi" by little use of modern/future technology.
both genres have heavy overlapping.
basically they're pretty much indistinguishable unless you decide to all Ashan and denounce any and all science in order to rip-off any "high-fantasy" stuff without bringing anything new to the table.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 07:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:29, 28 Feb 2015.
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@Neraus,
No, not really a surprise. Just a misunderstanding of mine. I've played a lot of WoW myself but I've never been confronted with the issue so I didn't gave it a lot of thought. Funny tho, as my favorite instance was Ulduar which is pretty technological, lol.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 28, 2015 07:35 PM |
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@Stevie
Sorry, that was just my laziness actually, I didn't read all the previous discussion.
Anyway, this reminds me when I played the first time Warcraft III, in the moment I started making arquebusiers I said to myself: "What is this? Where are my elves? Why is he holding a gun, shouldn't he have a bow?" later I realized that the game was nothing like the second game...
And that's the thing, if I was still the kid playing Heroes III and had seen the forge I would have probably screamed in agony, now I see it as a missed opportunity...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 07:37 PM |
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guns or firearms aren't exactly that high-tech though
i mean they were around during the middle-ages more or less, so what's the big idea?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted February 28, 2015 07:38 PM |
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Chinese used 3 stage siege rockets since XIV century  And both water and land mines
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 07:39 PM |
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@Kiryu
Well, once again, the important part is that when you put a sprinkle of sci fi elements in a fantasy lore, it's still perfectly a fantastic work, the overlap doesnt cause a transformation. In this example of WoW, "the aliens" are still supernatural creatures using magic in a universe that has mystical powers in play all the time.
If you bring in magic to Sci-Fi though, without some explanation that in fact it's not magic, it ceases to be legitimate sci-fi. A sci fi universe is a universe where there is at least a pretense of realism and naturalism. Supernaturalism does not belong even as an element.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 07:41 PM |
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artu said:
@ Sleeping Su
I'm saying it is not the happening (time travel, vampires or flying) but the explanation that determines whether its sci fi or fantasy, so a time travel story can indeed be purely fantastic if they do it through supernatural powers.
Biological virus turning people into blood sucking corpses is although pretty unbelievable and lame, a sci fi explanation.
Tortured count who sold his soul to Satan, turning immortal and cursed into living at nights sucking blood is a fantasy explanation.
And please dont "not quite" me on StarWars, I've actually read studies about why it's fantasy in collage during a course directly about what science fiction is.
Yes, for SF a rational explanation is needed and for Fantasy it is not. However, when a genre borrows a convention or an element of another genre it becomes 'tainted', so to say, and impure. And the more foreign elements it contains the more it can be classified in 2 or more genres. So yes, a time travel story can be a fantasy, but the time travel, as an element is still SF - an important element. But both fantasy and SF are fantastic, hence why some scholars call it Fantastika instead of Speculative fiction.
I agree with virus and count examples. 
For Star Wars, we then disagree. As I said, a genre can be identified by its setting (or your decor, though how one names it is not important), characters and themes. And setting (future, space ships and travels) and characters (aliens, androids, cyborgs) belong to the domain of SF. If you do not acknowledge this, than it is your problem. However, not to end this on a negative tone. Let's agree that we disagree. In addition, would it be possible to provide some studies that you've read about SW being fantasy? That is if you have those studies in e-form, or at least have some links, or the name of those authors. I'm asking you because I am intrigued, since my master thesis is going to be... let's just say unorthodox one 
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 07:44 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
guns or firearms aren't exactly that high-tech though
SF doesn't have to include high-tech...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted February 28, 2015 07:45 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
guns or firearms aren't exactly that high-tech though
i mean they were around during the middle-ages more or less, so what's the big idea?
True, but now try to tell that to that kid playing Warcraft III on the morning of Christmas.
Anyway, that was my first exposure to later technology in fantasy, if you asked me what is a fantasy game I would have answered: "It's a game with dwagons and knights, cool knights in full plate armor and not that fake armor thing called chainmail, also they need to have armets nasal helmets didn't exist back then, and also orcs, and maybe some skeletons".
But really don't allow me to talk about my childhood or this will turn ugly... Restrain me from doing so immediately!
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 07:48 PM |
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artu said:
@Kiryu
Well, once again, the important part is that when you put a sprinkle of sci fi elements in a fantasy lore, it's still perfectly a fantastic work, the overlap doesnt cause a transformation. In this example of WoW, "the aliens" are still supernatural creatures using magic in a universe that has mystical powers in play all the time.
If you bring in magic to Sci-Fi though, without some explanation that in fact it's not magic, it ceases to be legitimate sci-fi. A sci fi universe is a universe where there is at least a pretense of realism and naturalism. Supernaturalism does not belong even as an element.
as i said, i did not make very good or even legitimate descriptions we have a good desription for Sci-fi ladies and gents. now someone make one for fantasy.
Might and magic was still a very unique example though, right? i would like to keep it a very unique and interesting example even if it doesn't come up (much) in the tbs.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 07:53 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:54, 28 Feb 2015.
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@sleeping sun about StarWars
What determines the genre is the cosmology of the universe and structure of the story. From a structuralist approach, StarWars is not different than any fantasy tale, quite like Romeo and Juliet and the West Side Story are the same dramatic structure. Lightsabers instead of swords is just a secondary, visual detail.
Fiction in literature and cinema is not like it is in gaming, the visual atmosphere doesnt determine the primal criteria of what it will be defined as. I can make a comedy movie, a horror movie and a sci fi movie all in the same Gothic castle.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 08:04 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
For Star Wars, we then disagree. As I said, a genre can be identified by its setting (or your decor, though how one names it is not important), characters and themes. And setting (future, space ships and travels) and characters (aliens, androids, cyborgs) belong to the domain of SF. If you do not acknowledge this, than it is your problem. However, not to end this on a negative tone. Let's agree that we disagree. In addition, would it be possible to provide some studies that you've read about SW being fantasy? That is if you have those studies in e-form, or at least have some links, or the name of those authors. I'm asking you because I am intrigued, since my master thesis is going to be... let's just say unorthodox one
these are all fantastical elements though. SW is a very, very very fantasy story (knights, magic and evil emperors) in conflict. it's just that it takes place in space (occasionaly) instead. It handles fantasy themes and plot-structure and characters. basically you could put SW in a feudal medieval setting and it would be pretty much the same. you could also put any medieval fantasy story in space and it would not be much different. setting does not matter one bit when it comes to genre, it's just that each genre has gotten very... fixed in the last couple of years.
sadly i don't have any studies on the subject as i generally believed it was common knowledge SW is fantasy. it follows all the tropes and structures and characters for it. It was also a long time ago that i looked into it with any real gusto since i don't really like SW.
People assumes SW is Sci-fi due to it's setting but setting does not mean a story is a certain genre. It's just where it takes place and as such, saying a work is Sci-fi because it's in space is kinda silly. Spece isn't a sci-fi setting but it's a setting commonly used for Sci-fi since it lends itself well to science-based messages such as robotics.
quick question: what is SW about? answer that before seponding
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 08:10 PM |
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@artu
That may be true what you just said. But you also cannot ignore what I said, those elements are still there. At best, we should categorize SW as science fantasy.
Well, until now I hardly ever compared literature and games, so I may not be the best authority to talk about that.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 28, 2015 08:18 PM |
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Well, there are also elements of comedy in C3PO's dialogues and elements of romance between Han Solo and Leia. Shall we call it Science Fantasty Romantic Comedy?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted February 28, 2015 08:36 PM |
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@kiryu
"setting does not matter one bit when it comes to genre"
Yeah, right, tell that to utopia and dystopia, gothic genre, etc.
"it's just that each genre has gotten very... fixed in the last couple of years. "Every genre has its conventions, but nowadays in postmodern time, the genre categories became much more loosed than in the past + incorporation of different genres = difficult to categorize a piece of literature, film, etc.
"Spece isn't a sci-fi setting" Really? Do tell who uses space as a typical setting then if not sf? I'm all ears.
"silly" is not an argument.
What SW is about? - It is about many things, at different levels though.
@artu
it's gonna be the dominant genres with elements of X, Y and Z.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted February 28, 2015 08:51 PM |
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Star Wars is Sword & Sorcery.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 08:56 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Kayna said:
Jeez. Everybody knows that only gnomes and dwarves can bring technology in a fantasy world.
Dwarves and gnomes with cannons and rifles, shooting from behind cover of their defenders 
Given their 3 foot tallness, it's fine if gnomes do it. Besides, gnomes are wayyy too ingenious to just shoot and hide. They would have a back up plan with back up plans of their back up plan. Unlike 99 % of the player base that shall remain nameless!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 28, 2015 08:58 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun said:
@kiryu
"setting does not matter one bit when it comes to genre"
Yeah, right, tell that to utopia and dystopia, gothic genre, etc.
utopia and dystopia aren't settings though. they're more like themes or tropes to help establish genres or settings. gothic is just a theme that can be combined with many, many settings (space like WH40k or medieval like WHFB).
Sleeping_Sun said:
"it's just that each genre has gotten very... fixed in the last couple of years. "Every genre has its conventions, but nowadays in postmodern time, the genre categories became much more loosed than in the past + incorporation of different genres = difficult to categorize a piece of literature, film, etc.
not sure what you're trying to say here. i was implying that genres has lost a lot since very few use different settings then the "standard" sci-fi "space" setting or fantasy "medieval" setting which is a shame. i like genres taking place in unexpected settings.
Sleeping_Sun said:
"Spece isn't a sci-fi setting" Really? Do tell who uses space as a typical setting then if not sf? I'm all ears.
disneys treasure planet is certainly not sci-fi, right?
Sci-fi uses space a lot since it's a setting that lends itself well to those themes but space is hardly the only setting. would you call blade runner anything else than Sci-fi despite not being in space?
Sleeping_Sun said:
"silly" is not an argument.
had to say something and my English vocabulary isn't nearly as big as i'd like it to :/
Sleeping_Sun said:
What SW is about? - It is about many things, at different levels though.
It's a about a magic knight fighting the forces of evil to restore peace and balance to the galaxy. sounds pretty sci-fi to me 
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted February 28, 2015 09:09 PM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 01 Mar 2015. |
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It seems we have a bit of confusion here. As a sword & sorcery, and movie buff, I belive, I can shed some light on this subject of fantasy and science fiction. I strongly belive this may indeed also clear some confusion amongst those (like Galaad ... yes you!), who don't feel, new Ashan universe has same atmosphere as NWC worlds. So pay atention now!
First and foremost: Warcraft has elements of fantasy as well as sci-fi. Stevie is right. And I can attest ot that, as I played Warcraft as well as WoW quite a lot. However at the same time, he, and warcraft devs aswell ofc, are wrong ... and it's all about how do you interpret sci-fi.
The terminology of sci-fi or science fiction itself is tricky. To some (me included) science fiction must include science. That is, it must be based atleast losely on scientific findings and theories, as well as scientific predictions for future and assumptions that science makes. 2001: A Space Odyssey, is something I consider science fiction. Matrix, or Terminator aswell, even tho they represent more ridiculous take on things.
On the other side we have fantasy. Fantasy itself does not need to be focused on medieval or ancient period. It can contain guns and can very well take place in modern times or in the future. This is why there are many sub-genres of fantasy out there. I belive segmenting things too much into generes makes litle sense personaly, however they exist, and I will use them here in atempt to make things more clear ... hopefuly.
So on one hand we have Sword & Sorcery, or, as some call it, Heroic Fantasy. This was popular genre in 80's and early 90's (when I grew up), and it contains classics like Conan the Barbarian, The Sword & The Sorceror, Krull, Willow, The Dark Crystall, Hercules, Sindbad etc. As you notice some of them take place in future, on other planet, or have elements of time travel (The Beastmaster 2), or spaceships (Yor, Hunter from the future). I personaly would put Star Wars right into this category, as it shares almost all elements with the rest. They basicaly renamed sorcery into "the force", and swords into "light sabres". It's magic. That's why light sabres can't be explained by science ... they are magical. Lucas hiself said that, when he created light sabres, he just wanted for the heroes to have swords. Later, he made them glow, in order to look more futuristic. The characters levitate and shoot lightning from their fingertips afterall.
Now the important part: Old HoMM games, specialy H3, was developed in time when this type of fantasy was popular. Atmosphere of these games are therefore influenced by Sword & Sorcery movies.
And now the tricky part (try to bear with me): There is another sub genre to sword & sorcery sub genre. And that is Science Fantasy. This includes things like Masters of the Universe or Thundercats or Bravestarr (look this one up I recomend it). There is sworfighting, but not always. Character use things like laser guns and spaceships, but there is also magic involved. As you can immagine it's hard to distinguish between this sub genre and the rest. It's mainly up to personal judgement. So there's no rule. I personaly never distinguish these from other Sword & Sorcery, even tho I admit they have unique spin on things.
And now the catch: As you see a lot of fantasy movies have elements of "future technology" in them, like spaceships, time travel, laser guns etc., but I would not call them Sci-fi. However a lot of sci-fi movies have more ridiculous and far fetched approach, but people still call them sci-fi. Truth is, line between fantasy and sci-fi, is very blurred. It is therefore up to personaly judgement, if you call them science fiction or fantasy. Personaly, I have high standards, when it comes to sci-fi, to the point I would consider Star Wars to be fantasy. To me sci-fi must be scientific. And therefore I personaly would not include Warcraft to be sci-fi. It's fantasy, like Masters of the Universe or Krull. However Warcraft is a bit more unique (and I will not discuss it here), as you will see bellow ...
If you read all of this so far, and are not lost yet, I salute you. I promise it'll be over soon. What folows is one last genre in fantasy, I will talk about, and that is High Fantasy, or Epic Fantasy. To this genre you can assign things like Lord of The Rings and George R.R. Martin's books (The song of fire and ice). They have totaly diferent feel to it than Sword & Sorcery movies. And Imo it's Lord of the Rings which made it popular. Today's fantasy games, including Ubisoft's HoMM games and Warcraft, are based on high fantasy sub genre. They come after LotR was released in theaters, and cash in on it's success. They have therefore whole diferent atmosphere to them, than games based on Sword & Sorcery movies. I agree that new games have diferent feel to them than old games. There. Those that say this (Galaad) are coreect! And for a good reason. Ofcourse games based on this subgenre have been made before the relese of LotR in theaters (Warcraft, Warhammer, Dungeons & Dragons...), but this eploded in popularity after LotR. Warcraft 3 and later WoW, were games that started this trend in gaming industry. And other games folow.
Now those that read this long post, have my congratulations. I'm sure there are many of spelling and typing errors, and I apologize for them. I hope they are not too bothersome.
And there you go. From self proclaimed expert on the field of fantasy literature himself 
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
