|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
posted February 28, 2015 09:24 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 01:14, 06 Mar 2015.
|
Thanks a lot Zombi Wizzard for this very interesting post.
____________
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 09:32 PM |
|
|
agreed, that was very good, zombiW 
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 10:10 PM |
|
|
you are very wellcome. Thank you 
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 10:57 PM |
|
|
kiryu133 said:
utopia and dystopia aren't settings though. they're more like themes or tropes to help establish genres or settings. gothic is just a theme that can be combined with many, many settings (space like WH40k or medieval like WHFB).
Utopia (as well as dystopia) and gothic are genres, sorry to disappoint you.
Quote:
not sure what you're trying to say here. i was implying that genres has lost a lot since very few use different settings then the "standard" sci-fi "space" setting or fantasy "medieval" setting which is a shame. i like genres taking place in unexpected settings.
Genres haven't lost anything. Something is a genre or belongs to a genre because it uses some or most or all of its own set of conventions, like sf uses spaceships, distant planets and galaxies, etc. But by using conventions of different genres we got a mixture of genres: For example a fantasy set in a space ship set on an eternal voyage, or something like that. That is how you get that non-standard setting.
Quote:
disneys treasure planet is certainly not sci-fi, right?
Can't tell, I haven't watch it.
Quote:
Sci-fi uses space a lot since it's a setting that lends itself well to those themes but space is hardly the only setting. would you call blade runner anything else than Sci-fi despite not being in space?
I think that I wasn't talking about space as the only setting for sf. Yes, the futuristic Earth is sf setting, among other things. I was talking that space is typical of sf genre, but by all means it is not the only one. The other genres may also incorporate space as a setting, but the first association is with sf, maybe planetary romances or some similar genres.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
To me sci-fi must be scientific.
It doesn't say much really. Not precise and to general term for such a complex matter. A nice definition for sf is a literary genre whose necessary and sufficient conditions are the presence and interaction of estrangement and cognition, and whose main formal device is an imaginative framework alternative to the author's empirical environment. The authors of the Encyclopedia article—Brian Stableford, Clute, and Nicholls—explain that, by "cognition", Suvin refers to the seeking of rational understanding, while his concept of estrangement is similar to the idea of alienation developed by Bertolt Brecht, that is, a means of making the subject matter recognizable while also seeming unfamiliar. But also there is this: SF is distinguished by the narrative dominance or hegemony of a fictional "novum" (novelty, innovation) validated by cognitive logic.
Taken from here.
|
|
GenYAarikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 11:23 PM |
|
|
|
Goddammit you have attention spam of newborns, way to derail the conversation
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 11:23 PM |
|
|
SS, what we've been trying to tell you is, deciding genre by decor/setting is not a very deep and healthy approach, yes, some settings are easily associated with certain genres out of habit but (as in the case of Star Wars) that can be deceiving sometimes. Of course, there are cases where the line isnt so clear, since fiction is the realm of imagination and experiment, things can overlap but that is not always the case. Sometimes, artists take the settings of one genre and implement to another one. They can even do this deliberately just for the shock value. You must look at what's behind the decor more than the decor itself.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
|
|
posted February 28, 2015 11:42 PM |
|
|
artu said:
SS, what we've been trying to tell you is, deciding genre by decor/setting is not a very deep and healthy approach, yes, some settings are easily associated with certain genres out of habit but (as in the case of Star Wars) that can be deceiving sometimes. Of course, there are cases where the line isnt so clear, since fiction is the realm of imagination and experiment, things can overlap but that is not always the case. Sometimes, artists take the settings of one genre and implement to another one. They can even do this deliberately just for the shock value. You must look at what's behind the decor more than the decor itself.
I admit that you got a point. But, certain association with genres are called conventions. Yes, conventions can change and incorporate new things. But even if we ignore sf setting(decor), what of cyborgs (Darth Vader) and aliens (Yoda), robots (C-3PO), for example? Are they decor too? or something else?
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 01:31 AM |
|
|
Darth Vader is certainly not a cyborg, he's an evil lord with a respirator. And the aliens in Star Wars are actually not aliens. The whole galaxy thing is a metaphorical replacement of an epic with magical creatures. Yoda is an elderly, wise wizard, even more like a Far-Eastern monk. If Star Wars was serious sci fi, all those creatures wouldnt be able to travel from planet to planet like they were islands under the same atmospheric conditions, could they? Think of Alien (the movie) for example, how it is emphasized that the creature from another planet is a different specie that has very different biological behavior... Now, that's sci-fi and how it handles aliens and various life forms. In Star Wars, however, the planets are more like realms with exotic strangers. It's hardly how a real sci-fi would handle things.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
lordgraa
Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 01:50 AM |
|
Edited by lordgraa at 01:51, 01 Mar 2015.
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 02:51 AM |
|
|
lordgraa said:
Sorry to interrupt your Star Wars discussion
What do you think about the new music from Heroes VII Romero just presented (Concerto in Ahab Minor from Heroes: Might & Magic VII):
https://soundcloud.com/paul-anthony-romero/paul-anthony-romero-solo-piano-concert-live-in-munich-germany#t=1:27
Could it be the new Barbarian theme or just some medley? He started with Barbarian theme from H1 so maybe its a hint maybe not
OK... offtopic off and back to R2D2 =o)
If it is the Stronghold theme, here's hoping the in-game version isn't piano-based. I know they like to mix things up and not go for the obvious (see The Elven Coronation), but with that said, "piano" is perhaps the least "barbarian" instrument I can think of.
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 08:20 AM |
|
Edited by kiryu133 at 08:21, 01 Mar 2015.
|
Kimarous said:
If it is the Stronghold theme, here's hoping the in-game version isn't piano-based. I know they like to mix things up and not go for the obvious (see The Elven Coronation), but with that said, "piano" is perhaps the least "barbarian" instrument I can think of.
probably preferable to harps though...
can we just appreciate the he calls it heroes: might and magic? that's wonderful 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 08:54 AM |
|
|
Let me remind all of you that it's not true that the original HoMM didn't point to the "greater background" of things:
The first game came with the
Letters from Lord Ironfist
which tell enough of a story to make it clear there is a bigger context. They basically served as an explanation of how the following game came to pass in the M& M series.
Also, LABEL discussing makes no sense. Fantasy is such a big drawer in the genre desk it encompasses a lot, and for me the presence of "magic" - the supernatural - is enough to put something in that drawer, even if the rest was hard SF. Meaning, a high-technology world that would see an incursuon of scientifically inexplicable supernatural stuff would just as well be fantasy as would be a medieval world with magic that sees a technology incursion.
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 08:59 AM |
|
|
Well imo piano theme can work with barbarian ... Can't see why not.
EDIT: JJ, That is why I said, I dislike the segemnting of fantasy into things. To me it's all fantasy, pure and simple. But you can't deny that in internet those terms exist ...
As far as Heroes taking things into higher context. Sure. Almost all games do, apart from early dungeon crawlers. What I'm talking about is atmosphere of old games, as well as artistic direction. It's taken from these 80's and 90's fantasy movies. Imo Lord of the Rings changed a lot of direction in which fantasy is going, since it was released in cinema.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 09:53 AM |
|
|
Although, it can get blurry sometimes, the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is not a superficial one. As most of us pointed out, there's no supernatural in sci-fi. So calling all of it fantasy isnt exactly spot on. But I agree, this discussion that was supposed to be a paranthesis on the side, got a little bigger than it should, so let's go back to the topic.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 10:13 AM |
|
|
artu said:
Although, it can get blurry sometimes, the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is not a superficial one. As most of us pointed out, there's no supernatural in sci-fi. So calling all of it fantasy isnt exactly spot on. But I agree, this discussion that was supposed to be a paranthesis on the side, got a little bigger than it should, so let's go back to the topic.
Ekhem ... I was talking about fantasy being divided into sub genres. I agree that sci-fi is totaly other issue tho. Line is blurry tho, because there's lots of movies made that can be included into one or the other. Like Star Wars. Like yourself, I too consider it more fantasy, but I can understand why certain people would consider it sci-fi. To those I would ask. Is He-Man and the Masters of the Universe sci fi or fantasy? What about Flash Gordon? Thundercats? Yor, Hunter from the future?
My opinion is that fantasy can be put in future setting or in space, and still be fantasy more than sci-fi. Just like it can be put into medieval period and you would not call it historical movie. 
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 10:18 AM |
|
|
Well, I wouldnt consider StarWars one of the blurry examples but whatever...
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 12:42 PM |
|
|
Well.
Arguably, it doesn't make a lot of sense, when you have a game (world) with all these mythological creatures and medieval style combat, and suddenly there is a high-tech faction, coming with fighter planes and bombs and artillery - although the RIGHT kind of magic would still be more powerful, except that this kind of warfare is somewhat silly.
On the other hand "technomancy" would be the fantasy coin for borderline stuff. Take fpr example the Ashan Wizards's genetical experiments, fusing or merging different species WITH MAGIC. Generally spoken, that's in no way different from magicall fusing a species with a mechanical part - say, a chainsaw. It's STILL fantasy, and very much so, which means, that on THIS side of fighter planes and artillery there IS room for that kind of stuff.
Orcs with shoulder launchers are actually not a HoMM 3 idea:
Look here
The book is pretty hilarious, and I can recommend it as a nice read.
The only REAL con against the Forge is the fact that most wouldn't want this abomination to be a LASTING part of the series - but the problem with the Conflux is actually the same; it's obvious that people would have rather more liked something like The Coven or so.
I wouldn't have seen a problem with REWORKING the Forge into something else with the 2nd expansion MAKING the 9th town last.
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 01:15 PM |
|
|
Well imo Forge would not be that bad of idea. Again, up till recently, I didn't even know Ashan was so developed universe to include other planets, aliens, spaceships and the like (you must realy widen borders of your fictional universe to include extra-planetary stuff).
however the race of the Forge faction is something that I would be interasted in. Imo Orcs are not a good choice, since we already have them in Stronghold. Lizardmen however ... I can totaly see Lizardmen Forge faction to become a thing.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 01:21 PM |
|
|
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 01, 2015 01:31 PM |
|
|
Zombi_Wizzard said:
Again, up till recently, I didn't even know Ashan was so developed universe to include other planets, aliens, spaceships and the like (you must realy widen borders of your fictional universe to include extra-planetary stuff).
Ashan does not include aliens and spaceships, that was the old M&M universe. Ashan has a pure fantasy explanation from A to Z.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
