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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 03, 2015 08:42 PM |
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Stevie said:
Make him share a steamy romance with Nolwenn as she progressively becomes a victim of the feud between him and her father. Then, during the final confrontation between Ivan and Seamus, she would suffer a tragic death. On her deathbed she would confess to Ivan in tears and gushing out blood that she bore his child. As Ivan begins to lose himself in desperation, she would comfort him, saying that the people of the Empire need his strong rule, and that she believes from the bottom of her heart that one day they would meet again. Oh, the drama...
Quite good drama actually!
And Ivan, being a Casanova, will soon forget Nolwenn and marry another woman in order to continue his dynasty. Kinda will show his bad side as well.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted March 03, 2015 09:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
Make him share a steamy romance with Nolwenn as she progressively becomes a victim of the feud between him and her father. Then, during the final confrontation between Ivan and Seamus, she would suffer a tragic death.
And after that tragic event he will instantly go to Tanis' room and start to kiss her passionately... 
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted March 03, 2015 10:06 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:15, 03 Mar 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
PS: The writing is great and it really helps to build up some hype for the campaign, but Ivan is portraited waaay too good.
Pawek_13 said:
Exactly. Marzhin, please, make Ivan do something not oh so good, as he is used to be described.
I completely agree.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 03, 2015 11:48 PM |
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Elvin said:
For argument's sake, let's assume that H7 skill system is similar to that of H5, with 7 magic skills featuring a number of general as well as unique abilities. And let us also assume that a magic hero has access to most of them. With limited general magic skills - like sorcery and enlightenment - and limited access to might skills, you have to mostly invest in the magic school(s) of your choice.
Isn't there supposed to be three classes of skills: Might, Magic and Transitional (or whatever name they used)? So Magic heroes might have lesser access to stuff like Offence or Defence, whereas stuff like Logistics and Leadership might still be a go for them?
Elvin said:
I liked the elemental theme and in that respect I do not mind the concept of 6 elements and prime magic. I do like the idea of sanctuary focusing on water magic as opposed to light(buffs) and destructive magic. It gives the faction character. It would be even better if it had its own unique sanctuary-themed school but doing so for every single faction would be costly. Instead.. what if we kept the 7 schools and divided magic skills according to their type? Destructive, summoning, light and dark. Any magic hero would be able to specialize in any of those types but an inferno destructive hero would be different from a sanctuary one due to different school availability and different unique abilities. A destructive necromancer could have cold death, a destructive knight fiery wrath and a destructive runpriest ignite for instance. If higher tier spells could be accessed by higher mastery of the specific type, a summoner would undoubtedly find useful spells regardless of the magic schools that appeared in his guild. He would not have to worry about getting the right magic schools but instead make a choice based on the gameplay he is most comfortable with. Naturally, class restrictions could still apply so that an inferno hero might not be able to use icebolt despite being proficient with destructive. Or at least, have a harder time finding ice spells in his town.
Let me just get wrap my head around what you say here: Is what you suggest to have the elemental classification work a bit like the subschools in Heroes 5, where each school had a number subschools - the ones in Destructive being Earth, Air, Fire and Water - but with the elemental ones being common subschools for all four magic skills? If that is correct understood, that is definitely something I could get behind.
One question would be, however: How do you choose your elemental affinity - is it a skill in itself? Is it a perk in the skill (pretty much like Master of Fire/Ice/Storms in H5)? Or is it locked to your faction? Or is it locked to your class? Or is it locked to your hero race/identity (i.e. different heroes within same class will have different affinities)?
The pros of choosing your affinity yourself (or at least having variability within each class) would be that this allows for more different gameplay - but the drawback will obviously be that if you need to invest skillpoints into choosing your elemental affinity, we're back at square one in the sense that we use too many skill points on too little. Locking the affinity to class would solve that problem, but then you work towards cookie-cutter classes which can become a problem.
Another option would be to let you choose an elemental affinity on each level you earn of the magic skill: When you take Basic Destructive, you can pick one of the seven elements. When you take Advanced, you can add another. When gaining Expert, you add a third element, for a total of three out of the seven elements. Not a bad balance between broad coverage and still not having universal power. Opening a new school would need you to choose elemental affinity in that school also, which could be same (for synergy bonuses?) or different (for diversity). That could definitely work for something that allows you to customize without wasting too many skill points. Restrictions like forbidden and favored elements could apply for different factions.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 03:34 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:22, 04 Mar 2015.
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I actually think there are other underlying factors which are the real culprits in this whole story and not 7 magic schools per se. Imo, the primary attributes system, the initiative system and the magic system need some rework, tweaks and additions if gameplay is to advance to its next level. We're not exactly in the era of Heroes 3 anymore to be restricted by turns and attribute distribution.
Let's just be honest here - in what I see with Heroes 7 now, Might heroes are all around better than Magic ones. That's because: they get more attack and defense attributes which are immediately useful for creatures on the battlefield, while Magic heroes have more spellpower and knowledge which not only become rather useless after a point, but their usefulness is potential; they're inclined to get more passives with their skills which are essentially permanent mass buff spells available on your creatures from turn one, whereas Magic heroes get actives with a timer that have to be cast each turn; unlike Might heroes, Magic heroes are highly dependent on the Magic Guild's spell drops and/or level up skill drops.
I could write down some ideas on how I would change/improve certain aspects but that'd take me time and atm I just wanna go to sleep.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 04, 2015 08:29 AM |
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It's a little disappointing that they seem to have stuck with the same artist from H6 regarding hero portraits.
Always the same dull expression from a 3/4 angle with no background...
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 08:43 AM |
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Wellplay said:
Giving bread to one part of kingdom, while slaughtering this who don't accept him becoming emperor.
Preet good ruler i must say.
Ivan all day everyday.
Griffin Eternal!
Yea. Prety good guy. We need more people like him I say ... ofc if you're on the side that's getting bread that is ... Why not, I'd vote for the guy 
EDIT: So about magic duscussion...
I liked the idea in H6 where creatures get also magical attack and magical defence for this veary reason. So that spellpower and knowledge can be aplied on to creatures, making magic heroes usefull.
The idea was never expanded enough imo ... and now they decided to scrape it? Or am I wrong? Maybe there is magical attack and defence in H7?
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted March 04, 2015 09:25 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
Marzhin, please, make Ivan do something not oh so good, as he is used to be described.
Don't worry, the war is far from over yet... 
Also it's worth repeating one of Ivan's people is telling the story. The Spy Master is not exactly... unbiased. "Faceless tell no truth", as Angels would say
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 04, 2015 10:23 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 10:25, 04 Mar 2015.
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Stevie said:
That's because: they get more attack and defense attributes which are immediately useful for creatures on the battlefield, while Magic heroes have more spellpower and knowledge which not only become rather useless after a point, but their usefulness is potential
And this is the key, the bane and plague of the imbalance between Might Heroes and Magic Heroes since the first difference in Heroes classes was introduced ingame.
The only way I can see this change is by fundamentally changing the way Might classes work. By all means, the biggest attribute of a Might Hero has usually been a free passive boost to his troops, through his Attack and Defense scores. Just having them is enough to boost the power of his army, because miraculously, the units in his army attack and defend better by the mere presence of those attributes. While this applies to Magic Heroes as well, it is in a much lesser form, since Attack and Defense usually don't grow as fast as would be the case for a Might Hero.
For Magic Heroes, Knowledge and Spellpower only become relevant at the moment a spell is cast - which may have an effect, persistent for (part of) a battle (like a buff or debuff), or be instantaneous (like a direct damage spell or teleportation) - in other words, the potential Stevie mentions.
Things would even out a lot more if the passive Attack and Defense bonus to creatures was dropped completely, and instead require what I will name Combat Techniques to get that - perhaps even only transient in nature, through a battle tactic that works similar to a warcry (which might be just a subset of Combat Techniques). All these Combat Techniques would be needed to flesh out the Might Hero, just like the Magic Hero has Magic Spells.
For example, consider the Archery skill. A Might Hero gets access to further Combat Techniques to enhance this, which are mostly unavailable to Magic Heroes (just as not all spells are available to Might Heroes). A Might Hero could enhance it through these Combat Techniques:
- Barrage (activated ability): allows the Ranged unit targeted by this ability to strike a 3x3 area, where each tile is only dealt 15% of normal damage (still, 9x15% = 135% of normal damage, just spread out);
- Flaming arrows (activated ability): allows the Ranged unit targeted by this ability to using flaming ammunition, inflicting extra damage against their target. Has a chance to reduce enemy morale when hit;
- Steel tip arrows (passive ability): all Ranged units deal +1 damage;
- Eagle eye training (passive ability): removes the Ranged penalty of all Ranged units;
- Skirmisher Tactics (activated ability): allows the Ranged unit targeted by this ability to perform a Skirmish action, allowing them to move, shoot and then use the remainder of their movement for the turn.
I know some of these should probably be an ability of a Ranged unit in question, but it's just to give an idea. A Combat Technique that boosts defense and/or attack should fall under the Tactics skill, like Stand Your Ground (adds Hero's defense to troops, reduces their movement), Pressed Attack (adds the Hero's attack to troops, reduces defense slightly), Spear Wall (retaliates before an attack is made against the stack), etc ...
Some of these effects probably should be Perks, especially the passive ones. However, the active ones should be around for training to the Might Hero as Combat Techniques just like Spells to the Magic Hero. Think about this like the Might Hero discovering a chapter of the Ancient Art of War book by Sun Tzu, gaining a new insight in how to perform in battle; Tomes and dissertations on advanced Combat Techniques that the Might Hero can use to bolster his troops in various way as I detailed above. Towns could also feature a Military Academy, where Combat Techniques are being trained, just like Mage Guilds give access to Magic Spells. The Attack and Defense attributes effect the power of these combat techniques, just like Knowledge and Spellpower dictate the power of Magic spells.
This isn't intended to make Combat Techniques a carbon copy of Magic Spells, however. Their effect and influence should be different - not in the least because there is no Mana equivalent for Combat Techniques. On the other hand, Spellpower generically boosts the effect of all Spells, whereas Combat Techniques benefit from either Attack or Defense, with perhaps only some benefitting from both. Just like Magic Spells, Combat Techniques may either affect a single stack, or the whole army, and may affect the Hero's own troops or that of the enemy. Magic Heroes might get access to lower tier Combat Techniques, just like Might Heroes might get access to lower tier Magic Spells.
Of course, when the passive bolstering of Attack and Defense is removed, the game needs to be rebalanced, including Magic Spells that affect troops. But in this way, a Might Hero has to work to bolster his troops in combat, reducing his influence into the realm of potential, where the Magic Hero has been since they were introduced. A side effect of making a Might Hero work to bolster his army is that we can also forego the Hero's attack against enemy troops as we have seen so far (which was quite absurd to see a Might Hero attack an enemy stack that was behind the castle walls...).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 12:54 PM |
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Strictly spoken, the game has developed somewhat differently.
Keep in mind that initially there was one hero for each town, and towns were massively different insofar, that magic heroes had better, albeit more expensive creatures. The might hero types would shine simply by making their army tougher, the magic ones would shine by decimating the enemy with spells, mostly (or otherwise affect them or their army).
HoMM 3 made all towns more or less alike, giving every town two different hero classes, which made things a lot more ... comparable. At the same time, though, a point in might wasn't a point anymore. In H2 15 was the highest creature value, 1 point making a 10/5 % difference. HoMM 3 doubled creature range and halved point effectiveness, making might heroes less powerful, at the same time than making magic heroes less powerful as well by increasing the general amount of HPs in play, without boosting their power.
The problem is basically, that the might stuff is a passive advantage - the stats are directly transferred into advantages - while the magic stuff is not - or potential only.
And since it would be rather pointless to simply transfer magic stuff via spells to might stuff, the two things can't actually be compared very much.
There may be ways to solve this - but it won't be simple.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 04, 2015 02:36 PM |
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Maurice said:
For Magic Heroes, Knowledge and Spellpower only become relevant at the moment a spell is cast - which may have an effect, persistent for (part of) a battle (like a buff or debuff), or be instantaneous (like a direct damage spell or teleportation) - in other words, the potential Stevie mentions.
JollyJoker said:
There may be ways to solve this - but it won't be simple.
I think I'll repeat my question - How about giving all Magic heroes the ability to cast a second, low level (1-2) spell per turn
That way Knowledge & Spellpower would come into play more often - for Magic heroes, that is.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 04, 2015 03:08 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:08, 04 Mar 2015.
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Storm-Giant said:
I think I'll repeat my question - How about giving all Magic heroes the ability to cast a second, low level (1-2) spell per turn
That way Knowledge & Spellpower would come into play more often - for Magic heroes, that is.
It doesn't solve the problem that Might Heroes are treated differently. In fact, it may actually compound on the problem.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted March 04, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Just a small reminder - among Might skills, Warcries will see a comeback, so Might Heroes won't rely solely on passive bonuses.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 03:17 PM |
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Well, the problem is, that it must be equally interesting to play both.
HO gives Magic Heroes a second action each turn - for an army slot. That may make sense, but I don't know whether the distinction between Might and Magic heroes really makes sense anymore.
I really liked the HoMM IV way: you have basic hero types - say Knight and Cleric, and those develop, depending on the skills they acquire into "advanced classes": Paladin, Cavalier, Confessor, Inquisitor - whatever - that makes a lot more sense to me.
I also think there sould be a connection between primary and secondary skills: If you pick the Offense skill the attack stat should go up - or the other way round: if you gain an attack point you should have to pick an offensive skill/ability.
In the end I believe that heroes should have a more open development. You may start as a Knight, but that Knight may develop to something else, depending on the skill choices made.
That's basically the problem with H3: You pick a Dungeon Overlord, and you will have pretty good Might stats and only a few magic stats - but you could visit some stat-givers and found some magic arties, and your skills are Tactics, Logistics, Offense, Defense, Wisdom, Earth, Fire and Resistance. You are not a simple Overlord anymore; you are something like a Combat Sorceror or some such, because you have AMPLE magic knowledge - and because of the skills you picked, your primary skill point distribution should be different.
And in order to make sure that heroes aren't developing in the same fashion, there are the faction-specific things.
For example, I don't think that a faction SKILL is necessarily the best possible idea; I think, you could have a faction ABILITY as part of each SKILL, which would mean that the skills picked would determine what faction abilities you'd be able to use. Also, not all factions can get all skills, not to mention abilities: for example, an Offense based poison ability (attacks do poison overtime damage) may not be available for Light magic factions; Orcs might have a "crippled" Defense skill in their wheel, and so on.
I mean, if the lore is so important, it should be used to make things different in principle.
And I want an INTERESTING hero development where my choice really matters.
H6 tried the Blood&Tears stuff - not a bad idea, but too complicated; the skills and abilities are a much simpler way to, well, give heroes something of a character.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 04, 2015 03:30 PM |
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Maurice said:
It doesn't solve the problem that Might Heroes are treated differently. In fact, it may actually compound on the problem.
Indeed it doesn't. But, I wonder: do we really want to not treat differently Might & Magic heroes? Wouldn't uniformity between them make the game boring, since there'd not be a big difference in gameplay between choosing a Might/Magic hero?
I do think that your idea sounds promising, though. By reducing the amount of passive bonuses in Might skills perks, and making active abilites like sort of Might spells, Might heroes would work in similar fashion to Magic heroes, but with different effects. And I understand that, since Might skills would benefit from Might stats (Attack & Defense) and Magic skills from Magic stats (Spell Power & Knowledge), Magic heroes can't simply pick Might skills and boost their troops like Might heroes do (and the other way around).
But, could that become a limiting factor when developing your hero, regardless of it's Might/Magic affinity? 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:46, 04 Mar 2015.
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Attributes
I'd like to know what you guys think about the idea of having Might Attack and Defense and also Magic Attack and Defense for creatures. Because after giving it some thought, I believe H6 was on the right track with this concept. It would make Spellpower and Knowledge immediately beneficial for Magic heroes as Attack and Defense are for Might. And the way attributes translate would be like:
Attack  Might Attack
Defense Might Defense
SpellPower Magic Attack
Knowledge Magic Defense
Furthermore, depending on what attributes would be available or have more Might Attack or Magic attack, and depending on how damage subtraction works, choosing between building certain dwellings, so that you would have an appropriate army composition, would become even more relevant. For example, if I'm Might, I'd want the Titans more because they work better with more Might Attack; if I'm Magic, I'd go for the Simurgh because it scales better with Magic Attack.
Then you might say that Might would be at a loss because Magic would have the advantage of better spells. Well, if Warcries becomes a thing then making warcries take their power from the Attack attribute in the same way Spellpower works for Magic would make things pretty even. And they can also use magic schools if they want to.
Initiative
To me it goes without saying that the Dynamic Initiative system must return, because it's simply better to have the dimension of frequency of turns, rather than be limited to one turn one action. It also makes way for initiative modifiers like skills, perks, artifacts. We've had some discussions in another thread about how ATB was really unbalanced in Heroes 5, but we ultimately agreed that the idea behind it was solid and it added more depth and flexibility to battles.
Magic
I understand it has some limits. I get why people feel uneasy about having 7 magic schools with the current system. Basically the chances of getting the right spells to drop from the Magic Guild would be slim. While I would not to deprive the game from it's feeling of randomness (because it's fun), I wouldn't want anyone to get screwed because of it. So my idea is to add a feature that would circumvent this problem - Magic Market.
The core concept would be that if randomness didn't favor you, you'd still be able to get some spells that you want. Not all spells, maybe just a limited amount which you think are crucial to your strategy, and of course for a price. This should not devalue getting the Magic Guild though, it should rather complement it. For instance, building Magic Guild level 1 would then enable you to buy level 1 spells. This should be enough of a fail-safe measure to not ruin game should randomness be too random for you.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 04, 2015 03:41 PM |
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Well said, Stevie, I agree with you 
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 04, 2015 03:45 PM |
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Stevie said:
Furthermore, depending on what attributes would be available or have more Might Attack or Magic attack, and depending on how damage subtraction works, choosing between building certain dwellings, so that you would have an appropriate army composition, would become even more relevant. For example, if I'm Might, I'd want the Titans more because they work better with more Might Attack; if I'm Magic, I'd go for the Simurgh because it scales better with Magic Attack.
So there would no longer be a choice? Honestly, I don't like this idea
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted March 04, 2015 03:47 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 15:49, 04 Mar 2015.
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People state that chances of getting desired magic school will be low. When I come back home I will make a small document that would surprise most people on that forum, I suppose. Be prepared, however - it will have quite a lot of semi-sophisticated maths.
PS. Stevie, something like a magic market has already been available in Heroes V, so this idea is not quite new. However, I must agree, it will be quite desirable.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 04, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
So there would no longer be a choice? Honestly, I don't like this idea
No longer a choice? So you think that with the way how things work now you have a choice? If the Titan has 40 Attack and the Simurgh has 30 Attack and they both scale with the Attack primary attribute, essentially meaning that there will be always a difference of 10 Attack between them, then what choice is that? You'll always make the Titan. But if the creatures scale with different attributes, there might be a point when building the Simurgh because of your higher Spellpower would be an option.
Not to mention that there are other things you'd have to take into account, like attributes - defense, health, speed, initiative, etc. - and abilities - flier/walker, passives, actives, etc. and maybe even the enemy's army composition if you can think that far. So no, it's not taking away your choice.
But if you think about it, if you can quantify everything, nothing's really a choice.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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