|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:29 PM |
|
|
Well, as I said, there should be a palpable connection between your primary and secondary attributes/skills/abilities: if you acquire something magic - a skill or ability - then you should aquire a magic stat as well.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to nail the hero types from the start, defining their primary development (even if with random percentages), but allow them to pick skills and abilities that have nothing to do with it. Looking at the factions - Academy will never have THAT much of a might hero, while Stronghold wil neve have that much of a magic one. And if you think about Inferno - shouldn't they be all about ATTACK and CASTING (basically the way the Dungeon hero works in HoMM 5)?
And, as I said, isn't it strange that the GREEN heroes are specialized already? Shouldn't that develop depending on how they develop?
I mean, in Haven you might start either as a SQUIRE or a MONK/NUN; then, depending on how you develop you BECOME a Knight or Paladin or Cavalier or Confessor or Inquisitor or Cleric or whatever they can come up with.
Isn't that the way it usually works?
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:33 PM |
|
|
With the right abilities & stats, I do believe there can be a choice.
Let's take a look at Haven. You may want to go for Celestials to play more deffensive style, with resurrection, aura buffing and the like, or opt for a more frontal assault style with Swordmasters, avoiding turtling and trying to take your enemy faster by dealing more damage.
With time and balance changes, I'm convinced this could work.
____________
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:40 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
But, could that become a limiting factor when developing your hero, regardless of it's Might/Magic affinity? 
No, I don't think so. The next step in this concept would be to let go of the notion of Might or Magic Heroes. Rather, take a more loose approach as JJ suggested, something that was already present in the Dungeon Siege games: the attributes that you use extensively in battle are also the ones that grow quickest. So if you play a Hero mostly as a melee type, your Might skills grow. If you fling spells left and right, your Magic skills grow.
Now, I don't say you should be "blank" when you start off. Your selected Hero should have an affinity for either Might or Magic to begin with, but you are free to develop them as you see fit. So your initial Might Hero might turn into a Might Hero with a fair side dish of Magic, instead of a pure Might Hero. Vice versa, the same applies to Magic Heroes. Using such a system, you can develop your Hero intrinsically into one of several higher Hero archetypes.
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:49 PM |
|
Edited by TD at 17:02, 04 Mar 2015.
|
Honestly I never really saw magic heroes as weaker. They are at their strongest in early/mid-game while might-hero reaches its peak in late game. They just have different power-play times IMHO. When you use the early game for quick advancement on the map you can make up for the difference for great part in late game. Also if we go by h6 style magic you could constantly keep an enemy unit disabled through time-trap,time-stasis, fear, petrification, blindness and many other things. Also magic heroes had MUCH better dynasty weapons IMO(in the final version).
As for the idea of magic hero enforcing magic-attack-creatures I'm no fan of that. It would simply mean in my eyes that I would likely always be picking certain units just for the boost from captured towns assuming they fit with rest of the army or my play-style.
How I would "fix" the problem would be by having pure choice when leveling up in stats. You could only level single stat/attribute every two levels(to avoid overpowering). That would give you full freedom to build the type of hero you want. I know this idea probably won't/wouldn't get much support, but it's how I would personally do it.
As for the initiative system I would pick dynamic battles, it's a no-brainer for me. Some units just simply are much faster than others and them acting more often is just an extra dimension in battles that made them much more interesting. I hate the pampered h6 system where hero can act at any time to make game easier. At the very least I would expect hero to have set time/turn to act(at start of the round for example) or even better an initiative like the rest of the army that could be effected by artifacts and spells.
Edit: Just for clarity I would abolish the whole might or magic -hero selection. The hero would be blank at start and you would choose the stats as I wrote above.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:50 PM |
|
|
Ah, maybe I overlooked your post, my bad. If you can influence in what atributes you are going to earn when leveling up, then yes, your system makes a lot of sense.
Yes, I would love to try that, someday  
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 04:59 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
With the right abilities & stats, I do believe there can be a choice.
And did I say it wouldn't?
Look, you quoted me and said that what I proposed would make it no longer a choice. So explain me, how is having a Titan scale with Attack and a Simurgh scale with Spellpower less of a choice than having both of them scale with the same Attack attribute?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:03 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
With the right abilities & stats, I do believe there can be a choice.
And did I say it wouldn't?
Look, you quoted me and said that what I proposed would make it no longer a choice. So explain me, how is having a Titan scale with Attack and a Simurgh scale with Spellpower less of a choice than having both of them scale with the same Attack attribute?
Because if you have a Might hero, which going by traditional approach, will have high Attack & Defense not matter what, you will always choose the Titan because it benefits more from his stats than the Simurgh. Choosing the Simurgh looks to be not optimal.
I'm convinced the Might/Magic affinity should be defined through the Skill System (of which the Spell system is part of), and not through hero atributes.
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:06 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
Because if you have a Might hero, which going by traditional approach, will have high Attack & Defense not matter what, you will always choose the Titan because it benefits more from his stats than the Simurgh. Choosing the Simurgh looks to be not optimal.
Okay, so I ask you again, how is that LESS of a choice than what you have now?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:08 PM |
|
|
Right now both Champions benefit equally from A/D - the choice is still there for gameplay options.
____________
|
|
RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:16 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
Right now both Champions benefit equally from A/D - the choice is still there for gameplay options.
The difference is that you will always choose a might hero now as your main(most of the time at least), but champion choices depends from game to game, while in Stevie's example the choice would be between might and magic hero, while champions would depend on your hero choice.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:21 PM |
|
|
|
Interesting, I generally considered magic heroes to be the tronger ones (apart from H6). They had lower loses throughout the game. The boost they provided with their spells was enought to equal the differences and they had a higher direct impact. But this is only based on my experience, I never played much PvP and always had a more active approach to gameplay when playing vs the AI.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:21 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 17:25, 04 Mar 2015.
|
Storm-Giant said:
Right now both Champions benefit equally from A/D - the choice is still there for gameplay options.
And doesn't that basically mean that if the Titan had superior A/D attributes and you could never overcome the difference because both creatures benefited equally from the Hero primaries, you wouldn't ever consider building the Simurgh, hence not a choice? This is exactly the problem I try to fix.
Again, I didn't mention anything about gameplay in that text. You quoted me strictly on attributes.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:32 PM |
|
|
Dave_Jame said:
Interesting, I generally considered magic heroes to be the tronger ones (apart from H6). They had lower loses throughout the game. The boost they provided with their spells was enought to equal the differences and they had a higher direct impact. But this is only based on my experience, I never played much PvP and always had a more active approach to gameplay when playing vs the AI.
The way I see it's just that heroes have different time when they are peaking on their usefulness. Magic heroes can get less losses and fight harder battles early on while later might heroes are better having had harder early game. I never really considered them unbalanced personally, magic just required you to make most of the early game.
As for h6 I'd say magic hero actually had slight advantage at all times with some of the insane dynasty weapons(like enemy being grounded=you can go kill stack of angels with single unit as angel can barely move and you could kill it with hero and have unit just run around the battlefield). Without dynasty weapons however might had the advantage with their passive boosts and couple important abilities. Ohh yeah and then there was that crazy might-armor that gave full protection from first 3 enemy attacks...
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 05:42 PM |
|
|
Stevie said:
And doesn't that basically mean that if the Titan had superior A/D attributes and you could never overcome the difference because both creatures benefited equally from the Hero primaries, you wouldn't ever consider building the Simurgh, hence not a choice? This is exactly the problem I try to fix.
Titans will do more damage on their own - sure. But you are forgetting the most important part: creature abilities. Simurghs cast debuffs to nearby enemy creatures, and "they serve as amplifier for their (wizards) spells".
Thus, regardless of the hero afinity, you can choose Simurghs to enchance your magic power, or Titans to have a stronger presence on the battlefield and last longer.
I think Haven champions are a better example of this though.
RMZ1989 said:
The difference is that you will always choose a might hero now as your main(most of the time at least), but champion choices depends from game to game, while in Stevie's example the choice would be between might and magic hero, while champions would depend on your hero choice.
That's the problem that we have been discussing in the last pages. If you find a way to boost Magic heroes to make up the difference with Might heroes, then you have an in-game champion choice that furthers the strategy options of the game.
However, by Stevie's example, you pretty much know what you're going to do in your game from the start. I'd rather opt for a more flexible gameplay, where depending of what skills you're offered, what faction(s) you are facing, etc...you will decide for one champion or the other.
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 06:22 PM |
|
|
Stormy...........
I did say that you would still have to consider their abilities.
Stevie said:
Not to mention that there are other things you'd have to take into account, like attributes - defense, health, speed, initiative, etc. - and abilities - flier/walker, passives, actives, etc. and maybe even the enemy's army composition if you can think that far. So no, it's not taking away your choice.
But I also said that in that equation, the Spellpower and Knowledge become as relevant as Attack and Defense. So now there won't be only the Might hero that has an advantage, but they would both scale the same. Then I said that creatures having only Might Attack available and Magic Attack N/A, or having Might Attack N/A and Magic Attack available or both Might and Magic Attacks available - that would become a factor to consider when choosing to make a creature or another. This is almost if not completely the same as in Heroes 6, where creatures either had a Might attack, a Magic attack or a combination of both.
Storm-Giant said:
However, by Stevie's example, you pretty much know what you're going to do in your game from the start. I'd rather opt for a more flexible gameplay, where depending of what skills you're offered, what faction(s) you are facing, etc...you will decide for one champion or the other.
Oh really. I'd say it's exactly the opposite. If you were a Magic Hero, according to the Simurgh's abilities, you would never build the Titan. Even less so when your Spellpower and Knowledge give the Titan nothing. But if the Titan had a 40% Might 60% Magic attack, you would at least give it a second thought.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 08:26 PM |
|
Edited by Pawek_13 at 20:28, 04 Mar 2015.
|
|
As promised, here you have some calculations concerning probability and Magic schools.
|
|
ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 09:25 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
As promised, here you have some calculations concerning probability and Magic schools.
Hi!
Great calculations! And they seem to be correct if the assumptions of the mechanics are correct.
But i think you meant to say "Every faction will have one school of magic that is always unavailable in every Mage Guild built in the city belonging to that faction." in your basic set of rules section. Otherwise you are just repeating the same thing 
Do we know if the "randomly chosen" magic schools will be permanent through the Mage Guild Levels? Or do we need to do this type of probability calculation again for every new Guild Level?
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 09:27 PM |
|
Edited by Pawek_13 at 21:33, 04 Mar 2015.
|
ThatRedSarah said:
Do we know if the "randomly chosen" magic schools will be permanent through the Mage Guild Levels? Or do we need to do this type of probability calculation again for every new Guild Level?
I don't think so. I gues that for every level a new set of schools will be chosen.
PS. If you would like to calculate the probability that your three chosen Magic schools would be available at each Mage Guild level, then you would have to raise the value of probability for one level of Mage Guild to the power of 4 (number of levels of Mage Guild).
|
|
ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 09:34 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
I don't think so. I gues that for every level a new set of schools will be chosen.
This makes it more difficult to chose what schools you actually want to practice. If you know your end game spells only after building the final levels of the guild...
But on the other hand this is pretty much how it has been in the previous games too. Only with four magic schools, but this time its (hopefully) balanced by the fact that you get four spells also in the last levels rather than just one or two...
|
|
RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted March 04, 2015 09:53 PM |
|
|
Dave_Jame said:
Interesting, I generally considered magic heroes to be the tronger ones (apart from H6). They had lower loses throughout the game. The boost they provided with their spells was enought to equal the differences and they had a higher direct impact. But this is only based on my experience, I never played much PvP and always had a more active approach to gameplay when playing vs the AI.
Let's be honest, you can do whatever you want against AI. You guys would have different experience if you have played against players. Later in the game direct damage spells aren't doing much because of the size of the stacks in game, magic resistance, AoE protections and other perks, while control spells aren't giving you enough time for your units(that have quite low stats with Magic hero) to deal damage.
On the other hand, Might hero doesn't need to do anything, he just needs to be present there with his units and his very high stats, and his units will absolutely destroy yours in a single charge. But on top of that, he can also use spellbook and can cast low level spells that will do far more damage(mass haste/mass slow/mass stone skin/mass shield) than your high level spells will do to him.
There are some cheesy tactics(like Magic hero with Armageddon and units that are immune to it, but later even Might heroes can get that) but in high level PvP, your main hero will probably be Might(like 9 out of 10 times). Magic heroes are quite good in the mid game but fall off rapidly in the later stages and just aren't able to fight Might heroes.
This is based on Heroes 3, it is a bit different in Heroes 5(because you didn't really have Might and Magic heroes, but hybrids most of the time, and some classes preferred to go Magic while others did Might) but it still applied that in the late game you wanted just one magic school(excluding Academy and maybe Necropolis) while getting the rest of might perks and talents, otherwise you were just behind the enemy.
They have changed the formula in Heroes 6 because Magic heroes can boost the damage of magic units(and in some cases like Necropolis it was clearly obvious what units are better and what hero you are supposed to choose) and even though approach seemed better at first, I didn't like it at all later when I've played and watched the game a bit more.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
