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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 05, 2015 01:22 PM |
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Just a not on this entire Might vs. Magic heroes
Creating a currency for active might abilities, or giving them a cost in an existing one is not wise.
The only result would be another "Spell school" And many of you have a problem with the 7 currently have.
In my personal opinion it would not help to make each class more unique, rather help them all blend into one huge pulp. It would be the same as with creature abilities in H6.
A good Strategy game uses few abilities/possibilities but wise not a huge number where borders start to fade.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 01:34 PM |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 02:12 PM |
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Stevie, you just don't understand it. 
If you have pre-defined so-called MAGIC heroes, you know, that your hero will develop a deficit in passive might support over time.
So what CAN you do to make up for it? What you CANNOT do, is picking the stuff the other guy picks. Attack, Defense, Logistics - all that crap isn't going to make you catch up, since the other guy will profit at least as well.
So what CAN you pick?
Answer: NOTHING - because the other guy can pick it as well. UNLESS, you can pick something that depends on the quality of your magic stats, but there is no such thing, except when all spells depend on your power attribute (knowledge giving you the ability to cast throughout a battle).
So, suppose spells would be like creature stacks. Base value, depending on how many weeks you got it, your power value minus the other guy's, add to base value and adjust damage or use or whatever.
Complicated, possible but doesn't solve he problem that there is a limit to the number of active abilities you can use - which means you still can't pick magic skills like might skills: You got Ice Bolt, since you picked Water Magic, and since you have it 11 weeks (creature growth!) and an enormous plus in power, the bugger does enormous damage - what more do you need? Air Magic? Lightning Bolt? WHATFOR?
So, no matter the setup - the number of magic school skills you pick is LIMITED. Which also means, when it comes to SKILLS the difference between heroes is fairly small, AND IF THAT IS SO - why give them o vastly different stats in the first place and call them might or magic?
Conversely, you might break casting down into having a ouple of very useful magic skills that would make your casting better, so that a might hero COULD pick up spells, but wouldn't do any good with them, missing a lot of different skills, so his spells wouldn't last and do no damage.
In that case, might and magic hero would develop completely different, the might hero being more or less reduced to momentary spells (or developing a hero attack (!)) while the wizard would cast the bejesus out of him.
In THIS case however, if you would pick up stats according to skills, the result would be the same - except things wouldn't be clear from the start.
Keep in mind you wouldn't have the mage guild problem: no good spells (or none you like? no problem, go might!).
So it doesn't SOLVE the problem - it just allows to BALANCE things accordingly, depending on how things are set up.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 05, 2015 02:29 PM |
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maybe power of spells could depend on size of army? just a though 
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 05, 2015 02:31 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:32, 05 Mar 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
i agree with that, i'm mostly saying i dislike the idea of a might spell book. if i go pure might i'm a general. i improve my troops. I fight through my troops. no general in his/her right mind would go down and fight (i'm also against hero-attack) but i agree that magic shouldn't be closed of to might-heroes.
So Caesar and Alexander the Great just had to be present on the battlefield for their troops to deal out more punishment on the enemies while soaking up a lot more too? Or did they actually have to direct their troops, keep tabs on every moment on the battlefield as it evolved, sending orders to attack, retreat, regroup, counter attack, cause feints, deploy reserve troops, etc ...? The former is what Heroes is currently doing, mere presence is enough. The latter is what I call the Combat Techniques in which Might Heroes play an active role in troop management on the battlefield.
Something a Might Hero should be a lot better at, because of the amount of battlefield studies and combat experience he has paid attention to, as opposed to Magic Heroes who spend their time mastering the mysteries of Magic.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 05, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
If you take the Titans they may last less than Simurghs.
(...)
then you may regret not choosing the sturdy, powerhouse Titans 
You literally managed to contradict yourself in the same reply. Or rather, you changed the viewpoint to see either the downside or the upside, depending how it suits you.
I didn't. In the first sentence I'm using your idea (Magical A&D), whereas in the second one I'm talking about the traditional approach.
ThatRedSarah said:
JollyJoker said:
No, you just create a new one, since now might stats would be underpowered as magic stats would both boost creatures and give te means to cat spells - or you'd need to create a "might currency" for casting something or new stats for Mana.
Exactly what i was thinking. If both might and magic heroes are able to increase their creature stats and in addition the magic hero is able to wreck havoc with spells the system is not balanced.
+1
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 05, 2015 03:23 PM |
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Maurice said:
So Caesar and Alexander the Great just had to be present on the battlefield for their troops to deal out more punishment on the enemies while soaking up a lot more too? Or did they actually have to direct their troops, keep tabs on every moment on the battlefield as it evolved, sending orders to attack, retreat, regroup, counter attack, cause feints, deploy reserve troops, etc ...? The former is what Heroes is currently doing, mere presence is enough. The latter is what I call the Combat Techniques in which Might Heroes play an active role in troop management on the battlefield.
Something a Might Hero should be a lot better at, because of the amount of battlefield studies and combat experience he has paid attention to, as opposed to Magic Heroes who spend their time mastering the mysteries of Magic.
i'm more or less imagining that's what they do at all times: barking orders or whatever that improves the troops combat effectiveness. it just doesn't show much in the game (and neither do i want it to much since it would just make them more like magic-heroes, something i've already made clear i don't want).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:38, 05 Mar 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
So it doesn't SOLVE the problem - it just allows to BALANCE things accordingly, depending on how things are set up.
You're basically tying Attribute distribution with Skills just because of a feel of "normality" then? While I'm trying to SOLVE the issue of Might Attributes and Skills being better than Magic Attributes and Skills? Wow...... We're so not on the same page here.
JollyJoker said:
So, no matter the setup - the number of magic school skills you pick is LIMITED. Which also means, when it comes to SKILLS the difference between heroes is fairly small, AND IF THAT IS SO - why give them o vastly different stats in the first place and call them might or magic?
You're missing the bigger picture. The problem here is not pre-set attributes distribution according to class rather than flexible attributes distribution according to skill choice, the problem is that a Magic hero should specialize in MAGIC, not be extremely compelled to go for Might because it's better. That's the real issue!
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 03:46 PM |
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You can't pick two sentences from a long post, write something and then expect people to take you serious, sorry.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 05:48 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 17:54, 05 Mar 2015.
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With that kind of retort, I think I'm done with you.
You're not giving a reason for Magic heroes to go for a Magic build. You're giving them more reason to legitimately go for Might each and every time, because now even the Attributes follow.
Heroes of Might and Might-wannabes.
Repeating myself, over and over and over again - the elephant in the room is that Magic heroes are useless compared to Might. Period. Doesn't matter if they go for a Magic build, which would be the entire point because they're EFFIN MAGIC heroes, or a Might build because Might Heroes would still be better by default lol.
But just to indulge your pretentiousness, if you talked about this part:
JollyJoker said:
Conversely, you might break casting down into having a ouple of very useful magic skills that would make your casting better, so that a might hero COULD pick up spells, but wouldn't do any good with them, missing a lot of different skills, so his spells wouldn't last and do no damage.
In that case, might and magic hero would develop completely different, the might hero being more or less reduced to momentary spells (or developing a hero attack (!)) while the wizard would cast the bejesus out of him.
In THIS case however, if you would pick up stats according to skills, the result would be the same - except things wouldn't be clear from the start.
Keep in mind you wouldn't have the mage guild problem: no good spells (or none you like? no problem, go might!).
Then here's the thing: Spellpower already determines the power and duration of spells, and if I'm not wrong the Magic Skills have a similar role, if not by themselves then at least in their perks. Having yet another skill, which is nothing more or less than added Spellpower, is completely redundant.
You COULD have a point that Might heroes would need to invest into a Skill to be more efficient should they want to go more on the Magic side, but in that case what are Magic Skills good for? You'd basically turn them into Heroes 3 Wisdom skills but for each Magic School separately, which is so absurd it shouldn't even be considered.
On the other hand, having a Heroes 5 Sorcery skill would make all the sense in the world, had the initiative system been Dynamic and not the one we have in Heroes 7.
Happy now?
Look JJ, here an example withing your system of what you've said so far. Let's say that there's the Haven Squire which is the starting class of Might, and then the Monk, the Haven starting class of Magic. And as you said in an earlier post, they can then become a Knight/Cavalier/Paladin and Inquisitor/Cleric/Confessor, respectively.
Now, supposing that Magic would have the same disadvantages in Attributes (Spellpower, Knowledge being inferior to Attack and Defense) and restricted cast frequency because of one spell per turn, so no reason to go for more than just one Magic school, our heroes would develop like this:
The Squire, becomes a Knight.
Skills - Righteousness (racial), Light Magic (magic), Attack (might), Defense (might), Leadership (might), Warnachines (might).
Attributes - 20 Attack, 20 Defense, 5 Spellpower, 5 Knowledge.
The Monk, becomes an Inquisitor.
Skills - Righteousness (racial), Light Magic (magic), Attack (might), Defense (might), Leadership (might), Warnachines (might).
Attributes - 20 Attack, 20 Defense, 5 Spellpower, 5 Knowledge.
Can you see the problem yet? If not, let me tell you - they have the exact same skills and the exact same attributes, BUT ONE'S MIGHT AND ONE'S MAGIC! Apart from their class and fancy names, there is LITERALLY 0 difference between them. So, in your zeal you lost sight of the most important point in having Might and Magic classes. YOU WANT THEM TO PLAY DIFFERENTLY. Your system DOES NOT HELP with that, it only makes it EVEN MORE CONVENIENT for Magic heroes to go for Might themselves, because it's simply better.
And I, on the other hand, want a game where Might heroes play Might and Magic heroes play Magic.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 05, 2015 05:56 PM |
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Stevie said:
And I, on the other hand, want a game where Might heroes play Might and Magic heroes play Magic.
Sorry to barge in a bit but, are you suggesting H3 and H5 didn't play like this? I mean, I always could manage to develop both Might-oriented and Magic-oriented heroes in these games. And even, I have a tendency to think Magic heroes were stronger. But I am not a competitive player so what do I know...
Or are you fearing the gameplay to be too close to H6 on that aspect?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 06:10 PM |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 05, 2015 06:43 PM |
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Stevie, i think you're completely lost in what JJ is saying. you build your hero from scratch, k? might and magic will only influence the first couple of levels, k? what stats you get depend on the skills you get on levelup,k? if you pick a might hero and get a magic-oriented skill you'll start gaining magic-oriented stats or whatever on levelup, k? the more magic skills, the bigger growth in magic-oriented stats. combine this with a h4-esque class system (skills you pick decide class, not your starting class and this influences the chance of what skills you get on levelup) and you should understand what's up.
basically your start doesn't matter as much as how you progress in skills. how you play decide how you grow, not the other way around.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 06:57 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:57, 05 Mar 2015.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 05, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:18, 05 Mar 2015.
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Stevie said:
So I see you understood as much as me, save for the fact that, in such a context, the differentiation between might and magic heroes is ultimately meaningless.
At the start of the game? Yes. After developing a Hero for a number of levels? No. It all depends on how you develop your Hero(es), a system that is employed in numerous other games, like Dungeon Siege, but also in concept Heroes IV. In fact, Dungeon Siege takes it a bit further yet, since you have four different skills you can train (from the top of my head they were Offense Melee, Defense Melee, Offense Magic, Healing Magic) and each of those separately gained levels, depending on how often you used each. Play a frontline Hero? You likely ended up with high Offense and Defense in melee, marking you as a Warrior, a Berserker or Paladin. Rather like to sit back and throw spells around? You would end up a Mage, Sorcerer or Druid. All from the same, bland, base Hero.
And hey, you could even decide to switch around eventually, going Melee instead of Magic or vice versa. Not useful, but possible. Your actual class was determined by the highest level skill(s), with Hybrids being a good possibility.
kiryu133 said:
I'm more or less imagining that's what they do at all times: barking orders or whatever that improves the troops combat effectiveness. it just doesn't show much in the game (and neither do i want it to much since it would just make them more like magic-heroes, something i've already made clear i don't want).
Well, I guess we will then have to agree to disagree. It itches me like crazy that Might Heroes are mainly passive (and fill their time with idiotic melee charges against enemies even if they're behind walls) while Magic Heroes have to tap into their potential by making strategic choices on which spells to cast to affect the outcome of a battle. But if you are fine with that and don't want to have Might Heroes with an active role rather than a passive one, then we have no need to argue about it any further.
However, I think a system with an active Might Hero will solve the issue of the power balance between Might and Magic Heroes quite a lot better.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 05, 2015 07:17 PM |
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Stevie said:
So I see you understood as much as me, save for the fact that, in such a context, the differentiation between might and magic heroes is ultimately meaningless.
no it isn't. you just don't have classes from the start, you get them based on what skills you choose. might and magic will still be different, you will just have the choice of mixing as much as you want rather than being forced to play a way decided by the chosen class.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 07:28 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:36, 05 Mar 2015.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 05, 2015 07:39 PM |
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Stevie said:
So let me ask you, what's the difference between Might and Magic heroes when either one can get exactly what the other one can?
The difference? Personal preference and playstyle. Where it should belong, if you ask me.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 05, 2015 07:41 PM |
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 05, 2015 07:43 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 19:46, 05 Mar 2015.
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Stevie said:
So let me ask you, what's the difference between Might and Magic heroes when either one can get exactly what the other one can?
that doesn't mean they get what the other does. different games will result in different builds and this decides whether your hero is might, magic, or both. offensive, defensive or balanced.
Maurice said:
Well, I guess we will then have to agree to disagree. It itches me like crazy that Might Heroes are mainly passive (and fill their time with idiotic melee charges against enemies even if they're behind walls) while Magic Heroes have to tap into their potential by making strategic choices on which spells to cast to affect the outcome of a battle. But if you are fine with that and don't want to have Might Heroes with an active role rather than a passive one, then we have no need to argue about it any further.
However, I think a system with an active Might Hero will solve the issue of the power balance between Might and Magic Heroes quite a lot better.
agree to disagree, yeah. i can understand where you're coming from, i just don't want might-heroes to turn into magic-heroes with a different name. some indication that they actually order their troops more efficiently would be nice but i don't want them getting active skills. that's for magic-heroes is all  .
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
