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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted March 11, 2015 05:05 PM |
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Quote:
I have a strong dislike of demagogues and sadly thats what most of those so-called True Fans like Galaad or Lizardwarrior or some others are. You see what you ant to see, and disagree with any thing that might prove you wrong.
Apparently I'm a combination of Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Mao Zedong with some traces of Fidel Castro, Idi Amin and probably Saddam Hussein. 
But please, don't talk about 'demagogy' and 'hypocrisy', let's not even start talking about double standards. There are a lot of 'Ashanites' that use the words "idiots, ban and raging" too often, I won't give examples for now just for the sake of not derailing this thread (whose situation is pretty agitated anyway)
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 11, 2015 05:05 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
About the problems with lore, I will say two words "New continent" And as soon as I have the chance, I will give you a list of features that such a move would have.
A story moving away from the Falcon Griffin Unicorn empire? HOW DARE YOU!?!?
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted March 11, 2015 05:09 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Dave_Jame said:
About the problems with lore, I will say two words "New continent" And as soon as I have the chance, I will give you a list of features that such a move would have.
A story moving away from the Falcon Griffin empire? HOW DARE YOU!?!?
After H5 we have Holy Unicorn Empire so it already moved. 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 11, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Fixed 
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 05:19 PM |
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I wonder, how will elves react to humans calling themselves a Holy Unicorn Empire? 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 11, 2015 05:39 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
i can really only answer for myself but i don't necessarily think innovation is key, neither should you just blindly do h3 2.0. H7 has a pretty good idea what i find the franchise needs right now: a "best off" sort of thing: take the best stuff from various iterations and put them in one game. i don't think this is key to the "perfect heroes" but some sort of collection might be useful to figure out what the franchise actually needs. finding its identity if you will. only when we actually know what the franchise is at this moment will we know what the correct course forward would be.
basically, no developer has ever even been allowed to experiment with the franchise. whenever they try something fresh the publisher shuts it down. letting a developer get free reign over the project is what i think is needed.
I really dislike the idea of making a soup of games into a new one. Selecting 'best' features of this and that - given that it's a bit hard defining what's the best; opinions differ only too much here and there to say that what they are doing is collecting the best of anything. And you very well know that only arranging everything they judge being the best in the same place is not enough. It's almost as trying to make a whole human being out of the best parts of other people you find it is beautiful. In the end, only a chaos of disembodiment. Those things must work and flow in synergy. And considering synergy, that same synergy must be pleasant, enjoyable, exciting, surprising. If you are going to play a game where you already played indirectly (for this I mean that you played this feature in H2, that other feature H3, then another from H5), it simply prompts a feeling of deja vú, of a so popular 'meh', lack of innovation, lack of experimentation, lack of daring, and I do think it'll get boring quite fast - at least for those who have experienced all older installments as well. Why would I play H7? So far, it has nothing I couldn't have experimented with other games, and not only Heroes series. H7 has no individual appeal, as far as I can see. Which, in other words, I could say it's due the lack of innovation and creative implementation and improvements of the old ideas they so much want to carry over.
We still haven't been fed of more exclusive info, specially considering mechanics, which might happen after that infamous event. Even so, it shows high and low, some people already fantasizing and wishing things for the next installment. It's a sign of failure. It shows, in a sense, how the franchise is at this very moment at some people's perspective. Spending an entire title (7) only to figure that out is, imho, not the way. Risks are taken, yes, but not being bold towards anything feels like a failure itself. I cannot deny there are people lovin' it as it is too.
I don't know if having more freedom is the key, or if devs are the ones who know what's best. Again, 'best' is simply a word that is shapeless inside each one's minds. Devs simply hold the power to keep it going, as far as they present a new inventive game and H7 is not a new game - so far.
As for what could be considered the best as to make Heroes the best, I can hardly state it on an overview. I would enjoy more RPG elements in it, as I already said Heroes 4 is the one I most enjoyed and had fun playing, in spite of all its problems. Tweaking things in the overall current design (both visuals and apparently mechanics). But I wouldn't really be put off this franchise if they showed a brand new sort of game, as long as it was cleverly designed, provided fun and could make me get hooked for a long while, with high replaying potential; which some modern games *stares at H6 coldly* lack.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted March 11, 2015 05:50 PM |
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted March 11, 2015 06:00 PM |
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I have played a bit with LW's image.  I changed a little the design of helmet, kept the rest more or less. I tried to lower the amount of details, and to make those pale colours vivid. LW, if you have some free time can you improve it a bit? Can you add few skull here and there. I tried to do that and the result was really bad.
Enjoy these: Ashanite and Non-Ashanite
 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 11, 2015 06:00 PM |
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I've watched that already. A rather sad perspective to say the least.
Give people extreme modding tools and be done with it. *winks*
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted March 11, 2015 06:05 PM |
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PandaTar said:
I've watched that already. A rather sad perspective to say the least.
Give people extreme modding tools and be done with it. *winks*
It is sad because its true. Look at this forum... Galaad asking for old Heroes 3 "feel", Verriker lamenting for Enroth, Stevie wants his old skeletal Liches back, entire modding community stuck in H3... Most of this "concerned" fans just want old stuff back.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 11, 2015 06:16 PM |
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Sligneris said:
I wonder, how will elves react to humans calling themselves a Holy Unicorn Empire?
They should just call themselves the Holy Empire and spare themselves this GoT nonsense.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 11, 2015 06:20 PM |
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@Panda
frankly, i don't *want* it either but until Ubi stops breathing down its developers necks it won't get much better than h5/7. My perfect heroes game would be the one where the developers are allowed to go completely nuts. No publisher getting involved in any way, Just (for now) Limbic doing exactly what they want to do with the franchise.
if that means re-iteration or innovation doesn't matter. it will no matter what be the best Heroes since the last time the developer was allowed and able to go nuts (h3).
@Sleeping_sun
dat black and white contrast. god i love white detailing on black background. no BS here, GJ
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted March 11, 2015 06:22 PM |
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@kiryu133
Glad you like it. 
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted March 11, 2015 06:22 PM |
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Edited by PandaTar at 18:28, 11 Mar 2015.
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dark-whisperer said:
It is sad because its true.
I see your point, such as that I agree that's true. I myself complained about many things - although I don't actually want things back. It's just that sometimes, we can only compare with things we liked back then. Perhaps sometimes people simply cannot tell apart or explain how they think exactly.
What I think it's likely to happen is reaching a boiling point, a sort of crisis that will end up balancing itself around one thing: customization. I don't know if you agree with me, but I think it'll be something just like that. The more people will get to play the game the way they want, the better. The more tools being available to have everything their own way, the better.
A nice addition, as I said in the other Q&A thread, I believe that could make at least some people less grumpy, is adding some modding tools in the map editor itself. Tools that would allow tweaking some things, not too intrincated into the game basic functions, but some more directed scripting, beside the event scripting. Of course, in a very user-friendly sort of way. That COULD make people overlook some things they are adamantly complaining about, allowing them to vent their creativity and wishes onto something they would really feel like controling. Just a thought.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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dark-whisperer
Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
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posted March 11, 2015 06:41 PM |
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In my mind what Heroes needs for its longevity is modability and RMG (easy to use and powerful map editor included). So I agree
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 11, 2015 06:49 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Portals opening up everywhere and Angels helping people escape was a miraculous event indeed.
Are you being sarcastic?
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kiryu133 said:
but they didn't
say what you will about any potential future games in axeoth: h4 never brought back anything from enroth. Gavin and Solmyr did, but they were used as a sort of "let go" type narrative that made the use of old characters necessary. fact remains they didn't use anything else from enroth. Sandro didn't get some evil Scheme in h4 and Crag Hack didn't get hired for brainless carnage and so on. that this didn't happen and that Enroth was destroyed is one hell of a risk considering on top of that there had recently been death threats linked to NWC changing too much about the setting. H4 was an enormous risk. that's simply not up for debate.
what is up for debate is if it was a good or smart risk to take. which is where we disagree.
Actually, they did (do I count as a fan, mmm?), but after the failure of 3D0 there was nothing to dream/ask about.
Haha, "never brought back" - it brought back every single alive popular character of Enroth. And I am saying - every single one alive. And this was a huge failsafe for them for H5, no matter how you look at it.
Um, I'm not sure you followed my arguments at all. There was precisely no risk involved. That's what I'm debating.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 11, 2015 07:00 PM |
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Edited by Avonu at 19:19, 11 Mar 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Your post Avonu makes me ask a question. What are the crytirais for a good new Heroes game. You say that H5 was just H3 in 3D and some new features. but in this line H3 was just H2 with pre-rendered graphics and some ne features, and H2 was just H1 with hnad drawn stylized graphics and some newfeatures.
That's true H3 was upgraded H2 (even engine was taken from H2) and H2 was upgraded H1 but... these game were evolution of previous ones. H2 wasn't just new graphics - it added 2 new factions, changed spells mechanics, chnged faction skills to what we knows as skills in Heroes series now and the most important, introduced upgradeable creatures and artifact sets.
In core it was H1 game but it added so much small features, that it becomes something greater then H1. The same case was with H3.
Now, Heroes 4 and 6 tried (and failed) to be revolutionary games. While some concepts were great, others were not or they were poorly executed. But what it seems to be the greatest sin of these games are they forget to keep main elements of previous Heroes in game (like heroes enforcing armies with their stats and skills or spells being learn by magic guilds).
Heroes 5 is another case because it was Heroes 3 in core but didn't added nearly anything new to formula. Oh, there was a skillwill but it was poorly executed (who rememebers that originally we had 4 abilities available to fill per skill?) with flawly RNG.
Heroes 7 seems to be step in right direction, even if it use artworks and models from Heroes 6 - but mechanics looks closer to previous games with some small upgrades (flanking). We still don't know many things about this game but if it will not have major gamebreaking bugs, it might be successful.
There is another problem, which begun with Heroes 4 - HoMM is not the major fantasy TBS game anymore. Both Disciples and Age of Wonders introduced many new elements that made these games great. Elements which were not present in Heroes 5 and 6. While some may be exclusive to Disciples or AoW, I think others might improve Heroes formula a lot. Look, with flanking (which you can "test" in Heroes Online) we already have some changes in combat... and this is only begining. Meanwhile new King's Bounty was released and added new features to fantasy TBS games.
WHile I agree that "cooking" new Heroes game from other games elements is not a bright idea, adding some features might be right, if Heroes developers have a vision about their new game. I am not 100% sure yet, but it seems they have, even if isn't clearly yet.
And one more thing - few days ago I played HoMM3 RoE (original) and guess what? Even without expansions I played it by hours, just "one more turn". Same with Might and Magic 7. I didn't have these feelings while I played Heroes 5 and 6 or Might and Magic X - there wasn't factor which could hold me up at screen per hours.
While you can call it nostalgia, I also played Age of Wonders 3 and King's Bounty: Dark Side and guess what? This factor is present in these games, so I wouldn't blame nostalgia for it.
About new continents
Yes, it would be step in right direction but in the end it wouldn't change much. Why? Dragon Gods and race based factions. They are another barrier which holds any creative idea tight - Dragon Gods rule Ashan, not only Thallan. There are few ways to overcome this obstacle but you must be even more creative to use them or you will be forced to retcon your own ideas to fit them to Dragon Gods Ashan lore.
@Galaad
I am very sorry for you.
I fear when you will back from Paris, you will be no longer with us - you will be replaced by some Ashan loving Gaalad. 
Well, maybe only Stronghold loving Galaad - doesn't really matter, as Orcs seems to be Erwan's favourite faction.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 11, 2015 07:10 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Are you being sarcastic?
No, why do you ask?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 11, 2015 07:37 PM |
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Avirosb said:
No, why do you ask?
Nevermind =P I just think that "major survival" was really a deux ex machina move.
No news today? I already wish for this event to pass
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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NamelessOrder
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 07:42 PM |
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My own take on the innovativeness of new games:
I think part of the reason is that the average gamer nowadays is different than an average gamer 15-20 years ago when H3 was developed. Today, a lot of games are purchased by people in their 30-ties or late twenties and they simply do not have so much time to play games as they used to. This mean that they have even less time to actually learn the game so they pick sth they know and they can jump right into the game. I'm kinda in this category, being in my 2cd half of 20-ties - i just don't have the time needed to accommodate a lot of changes and i'd like the core mechanics to remain more or less untouched (although i don't really care about lore or some aesthetic details like others). Does it restrict design? Of course! Significantly, especially if you add requests of other fans connected with unit design, Ashan mythology etc. However, i still think it's imperative that veteran players can learn the new game elements quickly.
Another question, more related to H7 than to games in general, is whether there is a real demand for a grand TBS. Frankly - i don't think so. H3 was published in different times, playing a map for dozens of hours was possible back then and multiplayer wasn't as prevalent. Today a strong multiplayer format, based on ladder with games lasting no longer than an hour is pretty standard. H7, even with sim turns (and i dont think we will have simultaneous turns) won't meet this requirements. Duel mode (which i play) isn't so popular and i don't believe it will be one of the priorities. I just don't envisage H7 being a successful MP game.
I definitely not gonna play H7 for single player since i'm just not interested in the mode and i haven't played campaign in H0M&M since H3. Modern RPGs can offer much better story and gameplay for most SP gamers.
Ubisoft probably thinks the same and is reluctant to spend much money on the new installment. They simply chose a safe approach to appease fans of the series and make the game on a budget scrapping as much as possible. Bear in mind that innovations usually requires time and money to test them and they may put off some of the fanbase. Why risk when making a game in a genre that might not belong to the 2cd decade of XXI century.
All i'm saying is that H7 will be a niche game and clinging to H3, which was produced in an entirely different environment, would made the game obsolete and out of touch with current gaming.
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Uplay: ZergRusher | H6: Thoughts on duels | DoC: Cassa
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
