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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 11, 2015 03:09 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
There was basically NO risk, they just destroyed the world but kept the charachters (Sandro, Crag Hack, Christian, Gavin Magnus, to name a few).
The old universe means pretty much the whole universe. It's true that the Heroes almost avoided any sci-fi elements and player which haven't played the RPG won't come over these plot detailes, but I never "teared" them apart. They're still one universe.
And I believe "anti-Ashanists" presented here would talk about whole NWC universe as well, because Ashan too expanded over several genres.
the only characters that actually played any important role in Axeoth were Gavin and solmyr (the rest were more like references. a way to show that everything wasn't lost at a stretch). besides h4 was more about rebuilding an entire world. you can't really do that without actually getting rid of the old one. It's also definetly a risk since the first cutscene more or less says "forget enroth".
but i digress, we disagree. i was merely pointing out why i prefer the old universe (willingness to expand and explore by taking risks) to the new one (stale, safe by-the-numbers) and why. is purely my own opinion on the matter and you are more than welcome to present yours.
but seriously. blowing up Enroth? that's a risk. wether it paid off or not isn't really important. i think it did cause damn. the stories told in h4? some of the best writing i've had the pleasure of experiencing. and since settings are mostly a narrative tool... 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 11, 2015 03:12 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
And heroes III is the 3rd ( ) installment and chess wasn't changed that frequently and that recently. So it's not Heroes I, it's not the first type of chess, but still pretty old 
Wasn't changed that frequently and recently? Really? Just read this page.
Ok, the standart rules of chess as we know them know were established by FIDE which was formed in 1924 and there were at least 4 (!!!) editions of rules till 1984, when the idea of creating universal rules was scraped.
Talking about chess developing slowly ^_^
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Sorts
Known Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 03:16 PM |
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Galaad said:
Sorts said:
@ Slingeris: Most of "H3 oldtimers" are unable to see any faults in Enroth.
This is your assumption, and I disagree with it.
I'd say, most of H3 oldtimers have no clue what Enroth is.
By oldtimers i mean fans old the older games and might and magic series. Especially the rabid fanboy contingent.
But you are right most H3 players didn't care about the setting, as most newer players (and possibly a lot older) have no actual problems with Ashan.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted March 11, 2015 03:17 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:18, 11 Mar 2015.
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They didn't care about the setting because it had no significant visual influence to the game. And come on, just take a look at Ubisoft official forums, even their own fan base dislikes the impact Ashan has on that matter.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 11, 2015 03:19 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
the only characters that actually played any important role in Axeoth were Gavin and solmyr (the rest were more like references. a way to show that everything wasn't lost at a stretch). besides h4 was more about rebuilding an entire world. you can't really do that without actually getting rid of the old one. It's also definetly a risk since the first cutscene more or less says "forget enroth".
You forget that H4 ended the old universe for the time being. Sure, most of the old Heroes were "references" in H4, but who can say what could've happened in the future? What, fans won't say "we want Sandro schemes" etc?
Speaking by Heroes terminology, they pretty much made "a save" which can be loaded after in case the new Heroes won't work. No risk at all. Flush out guys like Sandro and Crag and you'll make pretty much any setting interesting.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted March 11, 2015 03:29 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Ok, the standart rules of chess as we know them know were established by FIDE which was formed in 1924 and there were at least 4 (!!!) editions of rules till 1984, when the idea of creating universal rules was scraped.
Wasn't it in 1850? Also, the fact that one OLDER version of chess is by far the most popular one, despite newer versions appeared, supports what I said.
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KingImp
Famous Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 03:35 PM |
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I apologize if this has been discussed and known for a while now, but at 635 pages there is no way I'd be able to find the answer here.
With there now being 2 Champion units, has it been mentioned if we get to recruit both or do we have to pick one or the other? It would be interesting if it's both and now we get 8 units in our armies as opposed to the standard 7.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 11, 2015 03:39 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Wasn't it in 1850? Also, the fact that one OLDER version of chess is by far the most popular one, despite newer versions appeared, supports what I said.
No-no, July 20, 1924. I checked.
Older? The most popular one? Only high-level players play by FIDE rules (world championships), practically every other country has a modification to the rules. It also helps that the classical (I believe that's what you were meaning, not older) chess is kinda "official" one. Hexagon chess are played in Europe afaik, but there're no big (maybe no at all) tournaments for it. The classical chess isn't popular at all in Japan, for example; they play shogi. Etc Etc.
You will be surprised, but Heroes' tactical part is a chess variant as well ^_^
Stevie said:
You choose one or the other. Can't have them both.
Theoretically, you can. With accumulated resources and several cities you may build 2 champion dwellings, sacrifice 1 core or elite and add another champion.
Though I don't know how much realistic my theory is. I hope it remains just a theory.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 11, 2015 03:44 PM |
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KingImp said:
I apologize if this has been discussed and known for a while now, but at 635 pages there is no way I'd be able to find the answer here.
With there now being 2 Champion units, has it been mentioned if we get to recruit both or do we have to pick one or the other? It would be interesting if it's both and now we get 8 units in our armies as opposed to the standard 7.
You can build only one champion building in a city. However, you can always conquest another town or demolish champion building to build other.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 11, 2015 03:54 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
Axeoth was heavily based on Enroth's legacy - too many Enroth Heroes miraculously escaping Cataclysm is one example.
Portals opening up everywhere and Angels helping people escape was a miraculous event indeed.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 11, 2015 03:57 PM |
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Sorts said:
@ Avirosh: An attempt to fix past mistakes is a lot better than just ignoring them.
@ Slingeris: Most of "H3 oldtimers" are unable to see any faults in Enroth. And Avirosh IMO trolls more than has actually anything to say.
Oh, so I troll. No, I'm just being facetious.
Trolls are things you should avoid.
And there's no fixing these mistakes.
Modern gaming conventions demand voice acting, which makes text sound more stupid than it is in written form.
Unless you're the late Tony Jay of course.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted March 11, 2015 04:19 PM |
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As for Ashan vs NWC universe debate:
I was not happy to have Enroth destroyed just like that without any explanation (I learnt about Heroes Chronicles later). We didn't save this world many times only to be destroyed by 2 pieces of junk in hands of idiots. Whoever played MM8, (s)he was waiting for different ending of Enroth and the Kreegan plotline.
However, while HoMM4 wasn't upgraded/evolved HoMM3 (and this is main case, why HoMM4 was percived as bad Heroes game) it has huge amount of very good ideas and has excellent adventure map and map editor. When HoMM5 was released, the main reason for bad notes from fans were not only bugs (Ashan was fresh idea and no one really knows, what it will become) but also for lack of various thing from HoMM4 (like caravans) which were introduced to HoMM3 by WoG.
Looking today on HoMM4 and bashing nostalgia to Enroth on side, you can see, it was new world with fresh ideas but still have some connection to old worlds (heroes from Enroth and Kreegan/Ancients war in background). Creators could do, what they wanted to do and they were not bound by old world (Enroth) rules - so we got Infernopolis but also Academy or Asylum. Not to mention both expansion introduced to us new, strange neutrals, which somehow fitted to their alligment factions.
What has gone wrong, was executions of these ideas.
Now we have Ashan. While it was basically critisied for lack of any connections to old universe (and clearly saying, that it never existed), now we have these connections (even if they are easter eggs) but we also got something else: lack of diversity.
We have the same Haven, Necropolis, Academy, etc. for the third time in Heroes game on Ashan. True, they have different units here and there but in the core Haven from H5 is the same Haven as in H6 and H7 - different rulers, the same philosophy and sociology. It is boring. Very boring and you start to see Ashan weak points very clearly - as in the last example of Arachnopolis.
We won't see new faction soon, because there are only 9 of them in Ashan (or rather on Thallan) and however it was silly or just bad, Ashan never will experiment with merging Necropolis and Inferno - it will choose safe road. We can except only different tribes of Orcs (and we already will see all 3 of them) or different 4 Houses of Magic in Academy or diferrent Dutchies in Haven but no Free Cities, no Naga and Elves town, no Dwarves and Mages forges, etc.
Lack of creativity can kill even a good game and we still are waiting for good Heroes game in Ashan.
No, HoMM5 was medicore at best (it's basically HoMM3 in 3D with some features from HoMM4).
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 11, 2015 04:29 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
You forget that H4 ended the old universe for the time being. Sure, most of the old Heroes were "references" in H4, but who can say what could've happened in the future? What, fans won't say "we want Sandro schemes" etc?
Speaking by Heroes terminology, they pretty much made "a save" which can be loaded after in case the new Heroes won't work. No risk at all. Flush out guys like Sandro and Crag and you'll make pretty much any setting interesting.
but they didn't
say what you will about any potential future games in axeoth: h4 never brought back anything from enroth. Gavin and Solmyr did, but they were used as a sort of "let go" type narrative that made the use of old characters necessary. fact remains they didn't use anything else from enroth. Sandro didn't get some evil Scheme in h4 and Crag Hack didn't get hired for brainless carnage and so on. that this didn't happen and that Enroth was destroyed is one hell of a risk considering on top of that there had recently been death threats linked to NWC changing too much about the setting. H4 was an enormous risk. that's simply not up for debate.
what is up for debate is if it was a good or smart risk to take. which is where we disagree.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 11, 2015 04:31 PM |
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so hello Heroes, I'm back from my brainwashing vacation with Ubi EA and an advance preview of the upcoming Heroes Call of Duty game, and I've just got to stop and reflect for a moment, Erwin Ashan is just great, isn't it! A really authentic and interesting setting for the Might&Magic brand!
how have you all been? I see there has been some lively discussion during my long torture absence lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 11, 2015 04:33 PM |
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verriker said:
EA Call of Duty game,
wat
Avonu said:
*stuff*
this.
so this
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted March 11, 2015 04:37 PM |
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Your post Avonu makes me ask a question. What are the crytirais for a good new Heroes game. You say that H5 was just H3 in 3D and some new features. but in this line H3 was just H2 with pre-rendered graphics and some ne features, and H2 was just H1 with hnad drawn stylized graphics and some newfeatures.
Galaad stayted that there are fans that are even now waiting for a true "Heroes IV" implaing that anything after H3 was not up to it's line.
H3 is generaly given the primordial status. But what is the next true heroes game? Should it be as cloase to H3, taking the good parts and introducing new interesting features? H5 did that, but still you call it "just a H3 remake", Should it be groundbreaking, focuse on inovation and be bold? Well 4 and 6 went that way and it did not work out well for them?
How is the next big game supposed to look when on one side we have people calling it not inovativ enought, and on the other hand criticizing it for inovating to much. Where is the middle ground? Where do you see it Galaad, Avonu, War, Storm, anybody.
About the problems with lore, I will say two words "New continent" And as soon as I have the chance, I will give you a list of features that such a move would have.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 04:40 PM |
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Sorts said:
Sligneris said:
Vast majority of Heroes players are nameless purchasers, so aside from the sales, it's hard to hear from them as most do not contribute to the fanbase. You literally can't know opinion of the majority, as many don't speak up at all.
That's why you should honestly avoid talking on behalf of everyone while mostly speaking for yourself alone.
Agreed. The opponents are always the vocal ones, especially the demagogues. Most gamers, especially the content ones aren't yelling out how they like the game or arent bothering themseves with attempts to fight demagogues or "justice trolls." There are fans who like the new setting
Let's be honest. There is a huge line between harsh critique and being a "bile-spewing raging fanboy." And several people on these boards crossed this line long ago: comments about Erwans "arachnophilia," blaming Ashan or lore for unrelated things (for example: the whole blaming Ashan for spiky unrealistic armors) or blatantly disregarding any attempts to reconcile teh fanbase or fix mistakes made during H6.
I have a strong dislike of demagogues and sadly thats what most of those so-called True Fans like Galaad or Lizardwarrior or some others are. You see what you ant to see, and disagree with any thing that might prove you wrong.
I don't believe that my words here change anything, but i don't care.
I like Ashan more than Enroth. The setting might have good number of faults but Marzhin&Co are working in them. And thats good, Ashan has chance to be a better setting, with its own tales and ideas.
this
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 11, 2015 04:49 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
About the problems with lore, I will say two words "New continent" And as soon as I have the chance, I will give you a list of features that such a move would have.
Other continents of Ashan than Thallan? With all the important things like Elder Wars, Sar-Elam, demon plots or Dark Messiah occurring in Thallan, by now it feels like there's very little of Ashan outside of this continent.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 11, 2015 04:54 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:01, 11 Mar 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
Your post Avonu makes me ask a question. What are the criteria for a good new Heroes game. You say that H5 was just H3 in 3D and some new features. but in this line H3 was just H2 with pre-rendered graphics and some new features, and H2 was just H1 with hand drawn stylized graphics and some newfeatures.
Galaad stated that there are fans that are even now waiting for a true "Heroes IV" implying that anything after H3 was not up to it's line.
H3 is generaly given the primordial status. But what is the next true heroes game? Should it be as close to H3, taking the good parts and introducing new interesting features? H5 did that, but still you call it "just a H3 remake", Should it be groundbreaking, focus on innovation and be bold? Well 4 and 6 went that way and it did not work out well for them?
How is the next big game supposed to look when on one side we have people calling it not innovative enough, and on the other hand criticizing it for innovating to much. Where is the middle ground? Where do you see it Galaad, Avonu, War, Storm, anybody.
(psst, bunch of problems with grammar here. put what i find in bold) 
i can really only answer for myself but i don't necessarily think innovation is key, neither should you just blindly do h3 2.0. H7 has a pretty good idea what i find the franchise needs right now: a "best off" sort of thing: take the best stuff from various iterations and put them in one game. i don't think this is key to the "perfect heroes" but some sort of collection might be useful to figure out what the franchise actually needs. finding its identity if you will. only when we actually know what the franchise is at this moment will we know what the correct course forward would be.
Dave_Jame said:
About the problems with lore, I will say two words "New continent" And as soon as I have the chance, I will give you a list of features that such a move would have.
i vote something like this.
hard reboot, let the developers be in charge of the lore so they can adapt it to the gameplay.
EDIT:
the only ones who could possibly know what is best for heroes are the developers. every time a Brand new heroes experience rears it head (h4, maybe h6 if you see it as innovative) the publisher was there to just simply bash it down to smithereens. 3DO moving staff from h4 development or ubi not doing what it should've for h6.
basically, no developer has ever even been allowed to experiment with the franchise. whenever they try something fresh the publisher shuts it down. letting a developer get free reign over the project is what i think is needed.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
