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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 21, 2015 11:19 PM |
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gourley4p
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 21, 2015 11:20 PM |
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icefield said:
We won't see any of this in H7, because H7 has to please multiplayer.
In case anyone wants to take a screen shot or something, I am about to be critical of MMH7.
What icefield said is so true. The demand for multiplayer support comes with a need to provide more balanced factions. Even though I didn't play multiplayer for V or VI, I cannot be mad at the thousands of fans who did--and I cannot blame them for wanting a good experience that fits their desires.
The downside to multiplayer balancing is that it tends to pull everything toward the middle; it makes everything too similar. Balancing for single player would allow developers to create one faction that is overpowered in a certain situation but overwhelmed in another.
Since MMH7 is balanced for multiplayer, I anticipate the richness of the factions will suffer because of it. In a perfect world, they would balance differently for campaigns and multiplayer. As it is, I don't foresee Ubisoft ever sinking that much development funding into a Heroes game.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted May 21, 2015 11:26 PM |
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Edited by PandaTar at 23:31, 21 May 2015.
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fuChris said:
Flanking is just as bad as I originally thought but there is no saving that short of cutting it completely. Not being able to control the direction you are facing makes it completely useless tactically.
Too bad. Being able to direct your unit was very important in Final Fantasy Tactics. You could, for example, sacrifice your back to a weaker enemy in order to improve your chances to block/dodge an upcoming attack from a stronger enemy. In this MMH 7 layout, even a fly can bother your strongest unit to turn around and open wide the back for every other unit to attack it. If a unit is stuck between other two, it can end up being always back-stabbed.
Quote:
My biggest gripe sofar(besides flanking) is that the units have really bad hit animations. Thanks to this the battles lack in dynamism. That and the genies, while flying, are upright all the time don't even tilt their bodies. Not even a sway of the shoulders. Same with many others but she is the worst offender(sofar).
So much for the fancy animations, eh. What were they for anyway?
gourley4p said:
The downside to multiplayer balancing is that it tends to pull everything toward the middle; it makes everything too similar. Balancing for single player would allow developers to create one faction that is overpowered in a certain situation but overwhelmed in another.
True. I'm not a multiplay player (in Heroes games), so I get easily bored or annoyed by this similarities when it looks so forced for balancing the game that way. My thoughts would be having different arrangements form factions for single player and multiplayer format, for fairness, while keeping factions much apart from each other in the campaign/single player scenario.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 22, 2015 12:00 AM |
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My thoughts from watching the stream:
- Battles seem awfully H6 like. A attacks B and one creature dies. B retaliates A and one creature dies. Then B attacks A and one creature dies, etc. Zzzzz.
- Flanking. Yuck! You go around the creature and it doesn't turn to face you when you attack so you get a bonus. Seriously?
- The guy who controls the game clearly already has a favored build of the hero which he returns to every time. But at least the random skill system seems fairly good plus you can learn skills even if level cap should be met (however they seem completely ignorant of the idea of long epic maps, so I guess that will not be an option anyway).
- Adventure map doesn't look good but they did mention something with light settings being strange in the version they played here.
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What will happen now?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 12:02 AM |
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I think the adventure map looked much better in H6.
Can anyone post comparison between new and old town screens?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 22, 2015 12:20 AM |
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xerox said:
Can anyone post comparison between new and old town screens?
Here is for Haven, but maybe you already saw that and was thinking specifically of Academy?
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What will happen now?
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 12:23 AM |
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So....Prime magic has the summoning, of elementals at least. And the mastery of prime magic is pretty ridiculous to me, while the ultimate is just cannot even compare to the others.
In case you missed it.
Prime magic mastery: Implosion repeats itself on the same target at start of the next round. The number of creatures summoned with summon elemental increases at the start of the next round by half of the original amount. 
Prime magic Ultimate: Double mana regen and the first spell cast is free.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted May 22, 2015 12:24 AM |
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alcibiades said:
- Adventure map doesn't look good but they did mention something with light settings being strange in the version they played here.
The Adventure map doesn't look bad but the one that was shown in the demo was very grayish. I hope that it is true that the colouring will be enhanced in the final game.
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 12:53 AM |
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xerox said:
Can anyone post comparison between new and old town screens?
I can't make one for Academy because there is no version of reworked fully developed town like the old one and there's no old one with few building like the new one 
If somebody haven't seen metamagic descriptions:
Blessing of Arkath spell:
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 22, 2015 01:12 AM |
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alcibiades said:
- Battles seem awfully H6 like. A attacks B and one creature dies. B retaliates A and one creature dies. Then B attacks A and one creature dies, etc. Zzzzz.
Not much surprising after HO also followed the same approach. It doesn't make it any less boring though.
But hey, they make a funny animation every couple of minutes! If you can distinguish them, that is
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gourley4p
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 01:59 AM |
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Working on transcript now. Will post the full thing when I finish. Got a phone call from my dad, so I will type this while I cannot hear the stream.
4m17s: Haven heroes visible in stream - Amilcar, Edric, Ella, Krystoff, Mellisande, Orna, Serguei, Tyris, Wilhelm.
4m30s: Academy heroes visible in stream - Aali, Asad, Gloria, Johari, Masfar, Minasli, Myrim.
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gourley4p
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 04:11 AM |
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Got through 35:15 tonight. Will finish tomorrow night and share a Google Sheet with the time stamps and information.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 05:52 AM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 06:06, 22 May 2015.
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so i missed the fist 20 minutes of stream before, after rewatching it now i realised a couple things:
anyone noticed the gamespeed option? when xavier adjusted it, he only moved the bar for "a little bit", that means we can reaaaaaly play fast if we try to move that bar for even more. as a h3 fan(its best to me, dont like h5 much) i do care about this.
they repeated couple times that ai turn time will be much faster in acctual game-also in acctual beta. and i was demanding about makng ai turns faster, so its like "there you go you want it cool but we said it already in early time of session.", this is another positive thing to take note in matter of quickness.
flanking is not op, but in a shape that makes good addition to game tactics, it doesnt give double damage or no retaliation, and they are still working on it to balance more. big hurray from me. im completely disagree on naysayers on this topic, it looks seriosly awesome. use your units to make enemy unit vulnerable to take extra +%35 damage, this is player skill rewarding, and not broken at all. values look good to me allready.
"multiplayer design=boring middle design?" thats a really bad logic, lack of vision, and even, cowardness. its good those who say this, are not acctual game designers in heroes team now.
i am both single and multiplayer, and such claims just make me laugh hard. are you sure you are a gamerat all? there are bunch of good games out there, suporting good multiplayer gaming experience with lots of variation. pull your head up high.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted May 22, 2015 08:07 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 08:13, 22 May 2015.
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cleglaw said:
anyone noticed the gamespeed option? when xavier adjusted it, he only moved the bar for "a little bit", that means we can reaaaaaly play fast if we try to move that bar for even more.
We don't know that yet. We don't know how much faster it would be. It could be instant moves or it could be only a bit faster.
Beta stream didn't show this feature to us.
cleglaw said:
they repeated couple times that ai turn time will be much faster in acctual game-also in acctual beta.
We heard familiar words during Heroes 6 development and how that game ended?
However stream gameplay worked faster then H6 game, so there is still hope.
cleglaw said:
flanking is not op, but in a shape that makes good addition to game tactics, it doesnt give double damage or no retaliation, and they are still working on it to balance more. big hurray from me. im completely disagree on naysayers on this topic, it looks seriosly awesome. use your units to make enemy unit vulnerable to take extra +%35 damage, this is player skill rewarding, and not broken at all. values look good to me allready.
You didn't play Heroes Online, did you? Play that "free" online game and you will see what are problems with current falnking system.
Play Age of Wonders for example as next and see how it can be fixed.
cleglaw said:
"multiplayer design=boring middle design?" thats a really bad logic, lack of vision, and even, cowardness. its good those who say this, are not acctual game designers in heroes team now.
i am both single and multiplayer, and such claims just make me laugh hard. are you sure you are a gamerat all? there are bunch of good games out there, suporting good multiplayer gaming experience with lots of variation. pull your head up high.
*facepalm*
It's me or when you choose your faction and hero you couldn't set random town/hero?
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 08:23 AM |
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Edited by Hermes at 08:35, 22 May 2015.
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So so excited for the Beta next week! Been waiting too long to play as an Academy in a beautiful engine like that.
I just want to list things here I liked and disliked:
Liked:
1. Magic guild system, letting you focus on specific schools.
2. SKill wheel looks much better in action - lots of meaningful choices.
3. Random skill system looks very decent too.
4. Graphics are just gorgeous - especially in Combat where you can see all flowing waterfalls in the background.
5. Atmospheric townscreens.
6. Creatures designs and animations.
Didn't like:
1. Combat bit too slow. I know the animation can be sped up but little more power on attacks and less health on creatures would be great.
2.Lack of adventure buildings?
3. Visual glitches during combat.
4. The map they showed is not really impressive.
5. Townscreens although atmosperic, still need some work, especially the building tree web.
Edit:
In regards to flanking, I think its a good feature. Just imagine when fighting enemy hero with 7-8 troops each - it's not going to be easy to find a spot to flank. And more opportunities to protect your stacks too.
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Petiknight
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 09:16 AM |
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Greetings to everyone !!!
I read this forum since two years -almost daily- and finally I wanted to post something as might your eyes skipped in the beta. In the video around 1:03:48 you can see some elf unit.
By the way I am not so impressed by the beta video.
-The UI is terrible, i know they will rework
-The color usage is also questionable some point.
-hard to see, what is yours, what is the AI's these flags are disturbing with similar color etc.
-the terrain is not nice
these are the only visuals, not so important for me
BUt thed adventure map, seems to be very simple. To less things to discover, determined paths etc. I hope it's only like a tutorial map.
-skill system seems simplified, not as random as it should be
-units art is also not the nicest, Necropolis
Generally you can feel the low-budget in every aspects of the game. I still have hope that the game will be amasing. But in 2015 i wanted to have something more... Respect to All
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2015 09:20 AM |
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Avonu said:
cleglaw said:
anyone noticed the gamespeed option? when xavier adjusted it, he only moved the bar for "a little bit", that means we can reaaaaaly play fast if we try to move that bar for even more.
We don't know that yet. We don't know how much faster it would be. It could be instant moves or it could be only a bit faster.
Beta stream didn't show this feature to us.
cleglaw said:
they repeated couple times that ai turn time will be much faster in acctual game-also in acctual beta.
We heard familiar words during Heroes 6 development and how that game ended?
However stream gameplay worked faster then H6 game, so there is still hope.
its %150 in xaviers option, and bar is not even at half yet, so its definietly gonnna be faster then what we saw, and then maybe after at least half of the bar, they may teleport-move.
btw its much more quick then h5 already, so i wouldnt just say "there is still hope".
Avonu said:
cleglaw said:
flanking is not op, but in a shape that makes good addition to game tactics, it doesnt give double damage or no retaliation, and they are still working on it to balance more. big hurray from me. im completely disagree on naysayers on this topic, it looks seriosly awesome. use your units to make enemy unit vulnerable to take extra +%35 damage, this is player skill rewarding, and not broken at all. values look good to me allready.
You didn't play Heroes Online, did you? Play that "free" online game and you will see what are problems with current falnking system.
Play Age of Wonders for example as next and see how it can be fixed.
i did played both of them. you are not judging it with all sides and thats why you are wrong in your judgement: there are lots of different things to be considered, such as type and size of battle maps, square grids system and unit counts in battles... in h7 those are adjusted to work better with flanking system, unlike heroes online where it had too large maps with too much open flanks. compare the two, and you will see units are harder to flank in h7, and this is what makes flanking a good mechanic now, its not -you-do-this-to-win-, its not easy and its not granting huge adventage.
Avonu said:
cleglaw said:
"multiplayer design=boring middle design?" thats a really bad logic, lack of vision, and even, cowardness. its good those who say this, are not acctual game designers in heroes team now.
i am both single and multiplayer, and such claims just make me laugh hard. are you sure you are a gamerat all? there are bunch of good games out there, suporting good multiplayer gaming experience with lots of variation. pull your head up high.
*facepalm*
It's me or when you choose your faction and hero you couldn't set random town/hero?
they said they will implement those later, so random towns and heroes are in, in some future day.
now you may not believe them with their promises, but since they look confident this time, i think they will be able to do at least some of those promises.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted May 22, 2015 09:39 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 09:41, 22 May 2015.
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cleglaw said:
its %150 in xaviers option, and bar is not even at half yet, so its definietly gonnna be faster then what we saw, and then maybe after at least half of the bar, they may teleport-move.
btw its much more quick then h5 already, so i wouldnt just say "there is still hope".
Compared to Heroes 2 and 3 battle speed there are still slow but OK, we should see/hear more about this feature in Monday.
Avonu said:
in h7 those are adjusted to work better with flanking system, unlike heroes online where it had too large maps with too much open flanks. compare the two, and you will see units are harder to flank in h7, and this is what makes flanking a good mechanic now, its not -you-do-this-to-win-, its not easy and its not granting huge adventage.
Are you really sure that they are harder to flank?
In Heroes Online you have only 3 hexes to flank unit. In Heroes 7 you have 5 tiles to flank small unit and 6 to 8 tiles to flank large unit. Not to mention that with tiles it's harder to cover all unit's weak spots (you can protect its back and sides but enemy can still hit you with diagonal attack).
cleglaw said:
they said they will implement those later, so random towns and heroes are in, in some future day.
now you may not believe them with their promises, but since they look confident this time, i think they will be able to do at least some of those promises.
If they said "they will implement those" then they are not "in" - these are two different tenses.
But I'm glad we will get it... eventually.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 22, 2015 10:59 AM |
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What's this about the elf? I watched but nothing but the picture of the closed Beta is seen.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 22, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 11:15, 22 May 2015.
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Avonu said:
Play Age of Wonders for example as next and see how it can be fixed.
Their system is indeed very good. Units there have 3 action points each turn. Once attacking, all remaining action points are used up and most standard attacks trigger once for each action point that was available then. With 3 action points available, they attack 3 times in a row. Movement is separated in 3 zones (green, yellow, orange); movement within green keeps 3 action points, movements in yellow has 1 less and in orange only 1 action point remains.
In that system, retaliation attacks consume action points of the unit in the turn to come; so if your unit retaliated to three attacks, it will likely start the next turn without action points and without movement points. Trying to move through tiles directly surrounding an enemy unit while it is facing those tiles will evoke an attack of opportunity, which also takes an action point just like retaliation strikes. As such, each unit gets 3 such attacks of opportunity per turn, but only for tiles from which they can't be flanked. Tiles behind the unit can be freely traversed, without risking an attack of opportunity.
Of course, exceptions are present as well. Some units have "Tireless" which means they have an infinite number of retaliations and attacks of opportunity, without it costing action points. Some units have omni-directional awareness, so it can't be flanked and all enemies passing through tiles adjacent to it will suffer attacks of opportunity. And the reverse is also present: some units have a charge ability, which nullifies attacks of opportunity as they charge past those units.
In Age of Wonders 3, you can change the facing of your units long as you have action points remaining. Unfortunately, you can't tell a unit to ignore a certain enemy unit, so whenever a unit gets attacked - regardless of how much damage the attack does - it will turn to face the attacker. The enemy can abuse that by alternating attacks from either side of the unit, since turns are per player and not per creature stack. Players are free to select the combat order in which their units act.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
