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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 05:39 PM |
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I've seen a lot of complaining about the vampire design, which is indeed lore related. The over-use of religious symbols, spikes and armour however is not lore, but just creative vision (or lack of). Yes, the lore says necro guys and gals like spiders, but it does not dictate them to be covered in spider symbolism and tattoos. That is Erwan's vision of a fantastical, magical and epic universe.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 25, 2015 06:13 PM |
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Well, I, myself, consider a bad thing (and probably major one) that Ashan started with H5, whose story starts just before the events of Dark Messiah. I can guarantee myself (and probably others) that did not have a clue what happened before. H1 at least started somewhere, where H2 and H3 continued. The only exception is Shadow of Death, which started before the events of H3 (I guess?), but still enough to give some depth. Then H4 and rest happened.
About MM-HOMM relations, you know well MM are the original series, while HOMM is (or started as) spin-off games. But that does not even mean that the lore of either games should be thrown away.
And MOST importantly, people forget that MM is also a SCI-FI as well as fantasy franchise. That's why Forge was introduced in the first place. I admit, devs may have rushed in too much, they should've at least released a couple of units or two, then add as an expansion later. Besides, it does not even have to do with Enroth, you could've visted Xeen or Terra in previous MM games.
Ashan, however, seems to have lost that sci-fi part and just sticks to their own lore. Not only that, but it does not acknowledge any other planes of existance. Just because someone that wrote Ashan lore didn't have to write about other planes does not mean he just had to throw them out of the window.
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40567
Referring to this thread, Ashan is unoriginal, compared to Enroth, because:
*There are these same factions, at least in Enroth you have Vori, the snow elves, or Contested Lands, where elves and humans live in neutrality.
*The plot is just bah, demons trying to break free and all that, while the heroes band together to stop them. While Enroth did have kreegans (who are aliens, by the way, pointing at sci-fi part) that tried to destroy the world, there are also necromancers (who aren't cultists) and overlords of Nighon, who also have interests of their own.
**Some also pointed out H3 campaigns lack some things. I am currently playing them and it sometimes appears (like Kilgor trying to rule Krewlod through bloody conflicts, or Dracon trying to be a Dragon Slayer). I have not played Shadow of Death yet, but I assume it to be deep in plot (like Sandro making alliances). Besides, why am I talking about H3 here, you got H4 as well.
*Everyone seems to be serving the dragon gods, but have you ever heard of anyone trying to rebel against them? Even orcs can be considered as followers, since Mother Earth can be considered as Sylanna and Father Sky as Ylath.
*And, as a personal note, I also want to point out how they always try to explain things with lore. Example: Undead exist because Belketh taught necromancy or demons exist because Urgash crafted them out of stone. Sometimes I believe some things are meant to be unexplained, give it a bit of depth and mysteriousness.
So all in all, whoever has written Ashan's lore lacks originality and forgot MM franchise has sci-fi elements. Otherwise we would have a different world, with some references and mentions of old ones.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 25, 2015 06:17 PM |
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And just for an extra note, H3 and H4 had more difficult campaigns than most of H5 or H6 campaigns. FACT
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
And MOST importantly, people forget that MM is also a SCI-FI as well as fantasy franchise. That's why Forge was introduced in the first place. I admit, devs may have rushed in too much, they should've at least released a couple of units or two, then add as an expansion later. Besides, it does not even have to do with Enroth, you could've visted Xeen or Terra in previous MM games.
*Was: Now it's a pure High fantasy.
Quote:
*There are these same factions, at least in Enroth you have Vori, the snow elves, or Contested Lands, where elves and humans live in neutrality.
There are rather a lot of factions and subfactions, the fact you do not know them, or aknoladge them is your problem :-P
Quote:
*The plot is just bah, demons trying to break free and all that, while the heroes band together to stop them. While Enroth did have kreegans (who are aliens, by the way, pointing at sci-fi part) that tried to destroy the world, there are also necromancers (who aren't cultists) and overlords of Nighon, who also have interests of their own.
And that is why there are no demons in the last two Might and magic games published :-P
Quote:
*Everyone seems to be serving the dragon gods, but have you ever heard of anyone trying to rebel against them? Even orcs can be considered as followers, since Mother Earth can be considered as Sylanna and Father Sky as Ylath.
Oh.. sooooo... what about the several churches in Enroth and the constant war among them? Even in MM7 and 8 Necromancers were connected to the church of the moon.
Neh.. this is just a little trolling.. keep it fun :-P
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 25, 2015 06:40 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Quote:
And MOST importantly, people forget that MM is also a SCI-FI as well as fantasy franchise. That's why Forge was introduced in the first place. I admit, devs may have rushed in too much, they should've at least released a couple of units or two, then add as an expansion later. Besides, it does not even have to do with Enroth, you could've visted Xeen or Terra in previous MM games.
*Was: Now it's a pure High fantasy.
I do not believe in that. The sci-fi part only sleeps and needs to be "awakened". If not in Heroes games, then at least in Might and Magic XI +.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 06:42 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Dave_Jame said:
*Was: Now it's a pure High fantasy.
I do not believe in that. The sci-fi part only sleeps and needs to be "awakened". If not in Heroes games, then at least in Might and Magic XI +.
You will get sci-fi cameos like Jassad in MMX-Legacy, or a line of text here and there. but as long as Erwan keeps this in a High fantasy setting your, I, and everybody elese is stuck with it.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 25, 2015 06:51 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 18:51, 25 May 2015.
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EnergyZ said:
And just for an extra note, H3 and H4 had more difficult campaigns than most of H5 or H6 campaigns. OPINION
FTFY
problem, Steyn, is that the lore shapes the artistic vision too much. Lore says spikes so everyone gets porcupined. Lore says spider venom drunk by necromancers is made of green neon so necromancers are made of green neon etc. etc.
Can we just get the lineups designed before we get their lore? is that too much to ask?
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Edited by Kimarous at 19:10, 25 May 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
EnergyZ said:
*The plot is just bah, demons trying to break free and all that, while the heroes band together to stop them. While Enroth did have kreegans (who are aliens, by the way, pointing at sci-fi part) that tried to destroy the world, there are also necromancers (who aren't cultists) and overlords of Nighon, who also have interests of their own.
And that is why there are no demons in the last two Might and magic games published :-P
I think the point trying to be presented is that even when demons aren't involved, they're involved. Many things ultimately boil down to "because demons." Because demons invaded Ashan, the Wizards created the orcs and beastmen. The Dark Elves split off from Irollan because demons framed them for the Day of the Tears and Fire. The succession crisis of H7 formed because demons killed off the Falcon bloodline.
There is some merit to this complaint. At a cursory glance, there's only one major antagonist in Ashan whose existence doesn't seem to be because demons: Sandro. Poor, poor "relegated to bit player" Sandro.
On a side note of antagonism, does there seem to be a lack of legitimately antagonistic Stronghold characters? Seemingly every story about them paints them as "we just want to be free", "we just want a home", "we just want to be left alone", "because demons are attacking, let's join the fray"... has there been ANY "rampaging marauder for glory and lulz" splinter group in Ashan?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 25, 2015 07:13 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 19:14, 25 May 2015.
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it's because at the moment Ashan is very shallow. there is absolutely no depth to it. Erwan has the skin of a compelling setting but nothing more.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 07:18 PM |
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Kimarous said:
On a side note of antagonism, does there seem to be a lack of legitimately antagonistic Stronghold characters? Seemingly every story about them paints them as "we just want to be free", "we just want a home", "we just want to be left alone", "because demons are attacking, let's join the fray"... has there been ANY "rampaging marauder for glory and lulz" splinter group in Ashan?
Rather few yes. Most well known is the Blackskull clan. A Living in the Dragon Causeway this tribe is considered outcasts even by their own kin. Corrupted by a Chaos dragon vein, these orc have been overtaken by their demon side and are more vicious, aggressive, and bloodfrienzied. Also more mutated the the rest.
There are more tribes but this one is the most well known.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 25, 2015 07:20 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:21, 25 May 2015.
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Kimarous said:
On a side note of antagonism, does there seem to be a lack of legitimately antagonistic Stronghold characters? Seemingly every story about them paints them as "we just want to be free", "we just want a home", "we just want to be left alone", "because demons are attacking, let's join the fray"... has there been ANY "rampaging marauder for glory and lulz" splinter group in Ashan?
There occasionally are orcs who give in to their chaotic blood and call to Urgash for revenge or power. One of them fought Slava in the campaign.
Then there's the black skull tribe that feeds off chaos-corrupted dragon veins and have in turn mutated. Duel of champions has a number of those.
Examples.
Edit: Seconded!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 25, 2015 07:29 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
it's because at the moment Ashan is very shallow. there is absolutely no depth to it. Erwan has the skin of a compelling setting but nothing more.
yeah, and in my opinion most of that skin is on loan from Games Workshop and Blizzard Entertainment lol
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 07:31 PM |
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Elvin said:
Kimarous said:
On a side note of antagonism, does there seem to be a lack of legitimately antagonistic Stronghold characters? Seemingly every story about them paints them as "we just want to be free", "we just want a home", "we just want to be left alone", "because demons are attacking, let's join the fray"... has there been ANY "rampaging marauder for glory and lulz" splinter group in Ashan?
There occasionally are orcs who give in to their chaotic blood and call to Urgash for revenge or power. One of them fought Slava in the campaign.
Then there's the black skull tribe that feeds off chaos-corrupted dragon veins and have in turn mutated. Duel of champions has a number of those.
So we apparently can't even have those without a "because demons" explanation. 
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 07:32 PM |
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verriker said:
yeah, and in my opinion most of that skin is on loan from Games Workshop lol
Here, fixed it for you... Like if Blizzard was original :-P
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 25, 2015 07:37 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Here, fixed it for you... Like if Blizzard was original :-P
you're not wrong lol, I give Blizzard credit mostly for the orcs linked to demon blood, nagas as a faction and some of the aesthetics like necropolis lol
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 08:33 PM |
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Galaad said:
Steyn sorry but you're a bit late to the party. We've been arguing this and that earlier in that thread countless times already.
You and I may have our disagreements, Galaad, but that's the biggest legit laugh I've had with regards to HC. Indeed, the link really does encapsulate the repetitive discussions on the same issues. 
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 11:13 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Well, I, myself, consider a bad thing (and probably major one) that Ashan started with H5, whose story starts just before the events of Dark Messiah. I can guarantee myself (and probably others) that did not have a clue what happened before. H1 at least started somewhere, where H2 and H3 continued. The only exception is Shadow of Death, which started before the events of H3 (I guess?), but still enough to give some depth. Then H4 and rest happened.
About MM-HOMM relations, you know well MM are the original series, while HOMM is (or started as) spin-off games. But that does not even mean that the lore of either games should be thrown away.
And MOST importantly, people forget that MM is also a SCI-FI as well as fantasy franchise. That's why Forge was introduced in the first place. I admit, devs may have rushed in too much, they should've at least released a couple of units or two, then add as an expansion later. Besides, it does not even have to do with Enroth, you could've visted Xeen or Terra in previous MM games.
At the time of Xeen, MM games (and Heroes) didn't take lore, or anything, seriously. That's what makes those games so charming. Now that everything is burdened heavily by lore and worldcrafting, game design becomes dull. That's already true for the later NWC games. Even if NWC could have had a successful H4 and later successors, I doubt that they could have continued for long without a complete reboot.
Quote:
Referring to this thread, Ashan is unoriginal, compared to Enroth, because:
*There are these same factions, at least in Enroth you have Vori, the snow elves, or Contested Lands, where elves and humans live in neutrality.
*The plot is just bah, demons trying to break free and all that, while the heroes band together to stop them. While Enroth did have kreegans (who are aliens, by the way, pointing at sci-fi part) that tried to destroy the world, there are also necromancers (who aren't cultists) and overlords of Nighon, who also have interests of their own.
**Some also pointed out H3 campaigns lack some things. I am currently playing them and it sometimes appears (like Kilgor trying to rule Krewlod through bloody conflicts, or Dracon trying to be a Dragon Slayer). I have not played Shadow of Death yet, but I assume it to be deep in plot (like Sandro making alliances). Besides, why am I talking about H3 here, you got H4 as well.
*Everyone seems to be serving the dragon gods, but have you ever heard of anyone trying to rebel against them? Even orcs can be considered as followers, since Mother Earth can be considered as Sylanna and Father Sky as Ylath.
*And, as a personal note, I also want to point out how they always try to explain things with lore. Example: Undead exist because Belketh taught necromancy or demons exist because Urgash crafted them out of stone. Sometimes I believe some things are meant to be unexplained, give it a bit of depth and mysteriousness.
So all in all, whoever has written Ashan's lore lacks originality and forgot MM franchise has sci-fi elements. Otherwise we would have a different world, with some references and mentions of old ones.
The biggest mistake one can make in Fantasy is to explain more than absolutely necessary. Hints are much more interesting. But I'm afraid, if they could have continued as far as H7, any other design team including NWC would also have run into this trap. The old universe already contained way too much explanation. If you play WoX, you're surprised how illogical and hilarious everything can be - and it makes much more sense that way.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted May 25, 2015 11:18 PM |
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Quote:
Despite all our efforts, we won’t be able to launch the Beta today, as originally planned.
Oh boy, here we go again...
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A8T
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 26, 2015 03:12 PM |
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I am not so bothered about the delay. I would rather have a good game that we have to wait for, than a hastily made game that gets patched requires lots of patches later, which seems to happen all too often these days. Same goes with the beta.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted May 26, 2015 04:02 PM |
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*There are these same factions, at least in Enroth you have Vori, the snow elves, or Contested Lands, where elves and humans live in neutrality.
the free cities?
*The plot is just bah, demons trying to break free and all that, while the heroes band together to stop them.
H6 and 7?
**Some also pointed out H3 campaigns lack some things. I am currently playing them and it sometimes appears (like Kilgor trying to rule Krewlod through bloody conflicts, or Dracon trying to be a Dragon Slayer). I have not played Shadow of Death yet, but I assume it to be deep in plot (like Sandro making alliances). Besides, why am I talking about H3 here, you got H4 as well.
lol
*Everyone seems to be serving the dragon gods, but have you ever heard of anyone trying to rebel against them? Even orcs can be considered as followers, since Mother Earth can be considered as Sylanna and Father Sky as Ylath.
the wizards arent and the void cult are activelly trying to destroy them
*And, as a personal note, I also want to point out how they always try to explain things with lore. Example: Undead exist because Belketh taught necromancy or demons exist because Urgash crafted them out of stone. Sometimes I believe some things are meant to be unexplained, give it a bit of depth and mysteriousness.
that's your problem 
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
