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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 11:01 AM |
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verriker said:
whereas for these new games we get like no fan maps at all, you are forced to use Ashan lol
Seems to me the lack of fan maps for the new games is mostly due the very user friendly map editors that came with them.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2015 11:11 AM |
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Steyn said:
Seems to me the lack of fan maps for the new games is mostly due the very user friendly map editors that came with them.
Actually heroes 5 does have fan made maps, and even if not as much as for heroes 3, a consequent amount of mods. But heroes 5 is not the real Ashan now is it?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 11:21 AM |
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 11:27 AM |
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Ah, now I see. Heroes VI failed because of Ashan. It had nothing to do with bad implementation of totally not lore related features such as the non-random skill system, town conversion, global recruitment, teleport system and of course the giant bug feast, but H6 was bad due to the few lore dictated spiders pasted on necropolis.
And of course the fact that there were hardly any fan maps created for H6 is also due to Ashan and has nothing to do with the game hardly being played and having a crappy map editor.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2015 11:42 AM |
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Edited by Galaad at 11:45, 25 May 2015.
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Quote:
totally not lore related features such as the non-random skill system
Maybe you’ve missed JJ’s early posts about seven schools of magic allegedly having an impact on that matter.
No one ever denied the awfully bad game design of heroes 6 which even without the bugs would still be a dull and boring game compared to any other HOMM title anyway.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 12:06 PM |
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As heroes v shows there are more ways to implement 7 elements into the magic system then by having 7 magic schools. Sure the decision to have 7 magic schools was inspired by the lore and the use of non-random skills was the easiest way to implement this, but that does not mean the lore dictates a non-random skill system.
The reason I made my reply to Verriker's post was because he claimed that Ashan lore was responsible for the lack of fan content for the new heroes games. I think that is not the reason, but that user unfriendly map editors and a bad game are the cause. And as you said yourself, for H5 there is quite some fan content.
So instead of nitpicking my argument and trying to present the lore, which is one amongst several reasons at most, as the sole reason for the non-random skill system, why don't you just admit that also people of the old garde like Verriker can be wrong sometimes.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted May 25, 2015 12:33 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 12:34, 25 May 2015.
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Sorts said:
Lore has always been the base for everything in games.
First comes the idea of a faction and some of its themes and units and then the mechanics are based on some of those ideas.
The core mechanics come first, however.
NWC actually failed at realizing this little fact.
Third game in the series and they were still throwing creatures together on basis how they felt and hiving no actual thought to it.
I'm sorry, this is complete and utter BS
The world itself had barely any story behind.
Now lets compare it *drums of doom* to warcraft.
Between its second and third game the nature of the factions and the world was fleshed out, giving a lot more solid story and world than H3.
Not the most original universe, it started out as a Warhammer copy and then borrowed heavily from other fantasy literature.
Also setting alone is not the basis for good storytelling
NWC dinally tried to bring their world more into it, but were burned because having given a bare thought to lore before it,
thinking that most HoMM players are aware some plot elements from the spin-offs (HoMM might be a spinoff of MM 1-5, but lets be honest MM 6-9 are spinoff's of teh HoMM series, something NWC didn't manage to realize) and they could just drop a techno faction into a fantasy game.
Lore is far less important than the story that unfolds within the game itself.
Also remember how Ashan started out as Warcrafthammer Light.
Zero consistency, H6 might as well have been the first game.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 12:51, 25 May 2015.
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Galaad said:
Actually there's a dedicated thread about the Ashan issue.
Yes I know, but I got angry because Sorts likes the actual storyline from Ubi-Heroes so I got berserk over it. 
Sorts said:
@ cori14 i have played very little TBS games outside HoMM series. But peale the internetz exists go read some reviwes or better, play them and see how good stories or not they have.
After reading your first post in this arguement, you wrote about Ashan being better than the NWC world, when it is not, neither of those are good, but NWC world at least left the gameplay to itself, creating the background for the game, while Ashan is doing it the opposite way.
I just wanted to point out that these story driven strategy games are nearly non existent, so I don't really know which games are you talking about when saying that "Lore has always been the base for everything in games." or you just talked about video games in general in which case I misunderstood.(and if that's the case then I'm sorry about the raging)
Kimarous said:
I'm finally starting to understand.
EDIT: With that said, I haven't suddenly turned anti-Ashan or anything. Just saying that you guys make more sense now.
My main problem is this with Ashan, I can live with the ashan campaigns just don't force me to feel the whole world during my play sessions.(ofc if it's the campaign then it's not a problem)
Glad you came around. I'm just sad that most Ashan fans don't see these posts, and will have to argue about it again some time later.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 25, 2015 02:07 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Zero consistency, H6 might as well have been the first game.
Well ... technically speaking, it is the first game  .
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2015 02:30 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 15:27, 25 May 2015.
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@Steyn
Well, then I would wholeheartedly agree with Verriker on the matter since IMHO the lore is the main concept and everything that will follow comes from it.
cori14 said:
I got angry because Sorts likes the actual storyline from Ubi-Heroes so I got berserk over it.
Oh ok, I know the feeling trust me!
I know for a fact Ashan discussions in the discussion thread annoys some members, is why I redirected you.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 02:42 PM |
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Galaad said:
Oh ok, I know the feeling trust me!
I know for a fact Ashan discussions in the discussion thread annoys some members, is why I redirected you.
I'm done with it, I let it out, I'm ok now 
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 03:01 PM |
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Galaad said:
@Steyn
Well, the thing is that I wholeheartedly agree with Verriker on the matter since IMHO the lore is the main concept and everything that will follow comes from it.
Maybe that is why some people get annoyed with you guys. You blame every single design decision and even execution on the lore.
Please enlighten me as to how you think global recruitment, town conversion and the game killing implementation of the H6 town portal derive from Ashan's lore.
I can understand you want to complain about bad lore, such as the case with spiderpolis. However, if you start to blame even unrelated things on the lore you will just annoy people with your hating and they will also not take you seriously any more when you are making a valid point.
So when JJ says 7 magic schools is a bad lore decision because it is not possible to implement it in a sound random system we can acknowledge the problem and try to find a solution (within the current lore). But when Verriker says H5 and H6 lack fan created maps because Ashan's lore does not allow one's imagination to run free, I call male bovine poo.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 25, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Steyn said:
The reason I made my reply to Verriker's post was because he claimed that Ashan lore was responsible for the lack of fan content for the new heroes games. I think that is not the reason, but that user unfriendly map editors and a bad game are the cause. And as you said yourself, for H5 there is quite some fan content.
So instead of nitpicking my argument and trying to present the lore, which is one amongst several reasons at most, as the sole reason for the non-random skill system, why don't you just admit that also people of the old garde like Verriker can be wrong sometimes.
actually, what I said was "probably another of the many reasons why the old games had such great maps with way better stories and lore" lol
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 04:27 PM |
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verriker said:
actually, what I said was "probably another of the many reasons why the old games had such great maps with way better stories and lore" lol
Well that is a bit of a stretch. You may say older games had better lore or or stories but "way better" is really just an exaggeration. They were simple, shallow and direct. Better presented but the stories themselves were freaking bad in most cases. It doesn't help that ashan stories are written like bad fan-fiction.
IMho the true reason for a low number of fan created content (maps) is not actually due to lore, game mechanics or art style, but to the increasing complexity of tools such as map editors, that open this way only to those few with time and skill needed for such a task.
H2 and H3 had so much content thanks to to their editors that literary anybody could use.
But hey, people give Ashan crap for everything, even things it has nothing to do with. Like in the Save heal topic one guy gives H6 fault for the way heal is presented oblivious to the fact that this spell worked this way (under a different name) ever since H1 and H6 was actually the game that tried to make it useful, as it came out, that was a bad idea.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 25, 2015 04:31 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Well that is a bit of a stretch. You may say older games had better lore or or stories but "way better" is really just an exaggeration. They were simple, shallow and direct. Better presented but the stories themselves were freaking bad in most cases.
OK, so I see you didn't go back to read what my post actually said either, good stuff lol
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 04:31 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 16:35, 25 May 2015.
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Steyn said:
Maybe that is why some people get annoyed with you guys. You blame every single design decision and even execution on the lore.
Please enlighten me as to how you think global recruitment, town conversion and the game killing implementation of the H6 town portal derive from Ashan's lore.
We aren't only talking about lore is, but how lore getting it's fingers on the game itself(like magic schools, H6 uninteresting Town lineups BUT MAINLY many of the decisions about art). And btw many people who liked Heroes 6 liked these things in H6 which you or me call bad.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted May 25, 2015 04:47 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
IMho the true reason for a low number of fan created content (maps) is not actually due to lore, game mechanics or art style, but to the increasing complexity of tools such as map editors, that open this way only to those few with time and skill needed for such a task.
Not really, h5 had quite a few maps despite the editor, it's more about the lack of interest in the game, the bigger the fanbase, the more maps and user generated content. This IMO is another thing that shows that h6 was rather unsuccessful
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted May 25, 2015 04:49 PM |
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verriker said:
Dave_Jame said:
Well that is a bit of a stretch. You may say older games had better lore or or stories but "way better" is really just an exaggeration. They were simple, shallow and direct. Better presented but the stories themselves were freaking bad in most cases.
OK, so I see you didn't go back to read what my post actually said either, good stuff lol
I'll Confess I went back and red it only after your post, but that does not change much about my opinion or post. We only basically agree, or have a similar stand point.
For me the Lors of Ashan or Enroth are not important since, as you wrote it, the game is a sandbox of features and we are not limited by lore or the game's stories in what we can create on are own.
What we are limited by is the user-friendliness of tools we recieve.
It doesn't matter if we create out own world. Replicated stories from our favorite ones, or expand the one we are given by the games, we need a good way to do so.
So my point is, as much as a lore enthusiast I am, which is known, and as much talk about how Vampires are not true vampires, or that it makes no sence to have a walking armor in dungeon. These all are just petty quarrels, that have been going on for a too long time, Imho.
The bottom line is that we need good gameplay, something I still believe in, but many have already forsaken, that will build the fanbase of the game, and easy to use well crafted tools to help people easily create more content, so we are not limited by the creators themselves.
Fun part is. If the game has a good number of maps, I will most likely never download a single one. I never did for any heroes but still got entertained more then well. (Well except for H4, sorry fans of this one), ((and 6 since it was more of a time killer then a good game)). But I understand that these the true pillars of the game's future. Not Wher, why and by whom the text in game is about.
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Steyn
Supreme Hero
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posted May 25, 2015 04:59 PM |
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Edited by Steyn at 17:04, 25 May 2015.
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verriker said:
actually, what I said was "probably another of the many reasons why the old games had such great maps with way better stories and lore" lol
Sorry, then i misunderstood your meaning. I was put on the wrong foot by "you are forced to use Ashan lol", which is a completely different reason that the one you talk about in the earlier part of your post.
cori14 said:
We aren't only talking about lore is, but how lore getting it's fingers on the game itself(like magic schools, H6 uninteresting Town lineups BUT MAINLY many of the decisions about art). And btw many people who liked Heroes 6 liked these things in H6 which you or me call bad.
Can you elaborate on how you see the lore influences decisions on art? Afaik most criticism on the art style has to do with the over-abundance of spikes, plate armour and one colour. These things are not lore related but come from Erwan's creative vision.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 25, 2015 05:29 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 17:35, 25 May 2015.
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Steyn sorry but you're a bit late to the party. We've been arguing this and that earlier in that thread countless times already.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
