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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 16, 2015 09:41 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
EnergyZ said:
Doubtful, looks like core units will again have 20+ hit points, considering champ units can only kill handful of creatures, like in H6.
What made you think so? Did you take a look at the game?
Currently, core creatures have an avarage of 17,5/20,5 Hp this includes the "stronger" elites, which the skelies, as basic troop, IMHO won't be.
...
Are you getting my point now?
Well, I wasn't referring to Necromancy, but about battles. Again, they feel like taking too long, unless you recruit certain creatures (heard disciple's Nova is OP). During that conference when Stronghold was revealed, it was shown about 10 behemoths used leap just killed few golems.
I ain't certain how things are now, but it feels like you can only win... by flanking.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 16, 2015 10:59 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Well, I wasn't referring to Necromancy, but about battles. Again, they feel like taking too long, unless you recruit certain creatures (heard disciple's Nova is OP). During that conference when Stronghold was revealed, it was shown about 10 behemoths used leap just killed few golems.
I ain't certain how things are now, but it feels like you can only win... by flanking.
BUT I WAS. It was there, in the post, 1st sentence, Necromancy, noticed now? IDC about somebodies assumptions based on info from 1/4 of a year back...
You can only win, by playing the game. How about trying it out befor your next bright assumption.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 17, 2015 12:13 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
I ain't certain how things are now, but it feels like you can only win... by flanking.
Since flanking yields the best melee damage, Flanking is pretty much going to be the default. Only in conditions where flanking isn't possible or flanking puts the flanker in a vulnerable position is it likely that you will not flank an enemy unit.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 17, 2015 08:47 AM |
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With the current system and lineup, I do not think that all necro units should be considered 'raisable'. If it was up to me I'd keep skeletons and ghosts from core fallen units, vampires and liches from elite fallen units and MAYBE bone dragons/death knights from champion. I'm not convinced that raising champions is a good idea as you cannot make one raisable and the other not and it would thus require both to be rather weak. It would also cause further complications like potentially getting free champions before other players can build their own champion dwellings and there is no sensible way to determine what raises what within the same tier. It's one messy affair.
I liked the H5 necromancy because it truly felt like commanding an undead horde, slowly shambling towards the enemy with tireless determination. Not that raising skeleton zounds is less fun but I wonder if it is wise to develop a racial solely focused on one unit.
As for the necromancy cap or lack thereof I am in favour of a cap. I don't want to see necro banned in maps where they can harvest too many troops. What I would do, would be to make core and elite necro units of lesser power than the average faction tier value with maximum necromancy gain allowing you to surpass it.
So where let's say haven's tier 1 core value is 100, necro tier 1 core value would be 80. And with maximum necromancy gain it could become 130 for instance. In earlygame necromancy would close the gap in unit power and by mid-lategame it would get a significant advantage in numbers. A simple way to determine how much necro should be allowed to raise, would be referring to your town growth. If the skelies have 50 growth and the necromancy is supposed to raise the value by 100% max, you have your cap right there. +50 skeletons per week.
Of course this there are more things to consider but that's the core idea.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 17, 2015 09:06 AM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 09:23, 17 Jun 2015.
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alexine said:
Necromancy raises skeletons only ?  I am not a necropolis player so i dont care that much but I am surprised ... it was great in H5
Not at all. An expert ability can offer you to raise some Banshees !
Elvin said:
If the skelies have 50 growth and the necromancy is supposed to raise the value by 100% max, you have your cap right there. +50 skeletons per week.
Of course this there are more things to consider but that's the core idea.
Wise words. I vote Elvin again 
Your topic wish list of changes can include this one, then we could send to Ubi if we have enought votes.
As explaining PROJ, in his last post (see) :
Compare Diplomacy and Necromancy skill feel good to me :
Quote:
Necromancy has similar issues, where growth of the army is realistically uncapped.
There s a problematic of the size map,
Quote:
You can balance through map design, but it severely limits the kinds of maps you can create with that one mechanic.
The cap should depends of the skill level (novice, expert, master...), knowing chance to get an expert ability should be lesser than up a skill to an expert level.. (in order to not scale abilities on the level of your hero)
Still stand the economic problem of free ability : Golden-tongued. Diplomacy could work as well with emissaries then golden-tongued could be replace by an ability increasing this cap per week.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 17, 2015 09:22 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 09:28, 17 Jun 2015.
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Personally, I'd go a different direction. Necromancy simply allows the Necromancer to increase the number of corpses he has at his disposal to raise undead at his towns. At the start, the growth rate is somewhat on the low side but as the stockpile (a graveyard, which isn't physically present on the map in any form) of slain enemies accumulates, it increases. It should be an asymptotic formula; the higher the number, the lower the overall boost to creature growth, so the initial 100 corpses would perhaps increase overall growth rate by +1, but when the graveyard already contains 1000 corpses you would need to add another 1000 corpses to it to raise it by another +1. Potentially even with a cut-off, perhaps based on the number of Towns and Forts the player controls. It should be possible to define a specific graveyard size from the start of the game, so that a Necromancer doesn't start with an empty graveyard.
Necromancy boosts the maximum size of the graveyard, thereby indirectly boosting creature growth. The graveyard size is reduced by recruiting Undead creatures. I am not sure if the graveyard should also have a decay rate by itself - and if so, Necromancy should slow its decay down, preserving the dead bodies longer than without it. Necromancy Perks would allow the player to also return a % of slain Undead to the graveyard, to serve the Necromancer again at a later time.
I realise it's tricky to balance, though. Overall the initial growth rate is somewhat below that of other factions, but as it increases through a game, it may exceed it. Undead units should probably in general be somewhat weaker than their living counterparts. It makes Arachnopolis somewhat weaker in early game but a powerhouse in late game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 17, 2015 09:32 AM |
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Just having a high growth in town is no fun, I'd rather raise and keep the skelies I harvest. The asymptomatic formula is a great idea though 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 17, 2015 09:35 AM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 09:36, 17 Jun 2015.
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Maurice said:
Personally, I'd go a different direction.
I don t think it s another direction of what explain Elvin, asymptotic or not, there s a cap per week - even if you stock corpses which is interessant, the idea remains the same.
As far i m concerns, diplomacy and Necromancy could work with same mecanics and differ with some point of view. I think your stockpile necromancy idea is a good idea and can bring realism - even if i not agree on the balance in hiring other creatures in your city (yes, it s overall mecanism).
I would like to see such cap voted for Diplomacy and Necromancy and they could differ by some points.
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 17, 2015 09:52 AM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 10:09, 17 Jun 2015.
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Wiki Diplomacy
Quote:
First of them is strength of your army compared to the enemy stack. Second is creatures attitude towards you - savage will never join, no matter other circumstances. Third is percentage of your army occupied by creatures of the same type that the enemy ones. Fourth and the last one is diplomacy skill.
The chance of snowball could be avoid : instead of negociation chance based on your strength army, your negociation chance is based of your potential recruitement (the amount value is calculated on a week).
Then there s less chance to see tons of neutral stacks joining you each one after each other. I know it s less realistic but i tear out myself when i hear the game is broken as Heroes 3, 15 years later.
I ll boycott the game if there s nothing done on the diplomacy skill.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 17, 2015 10:42 AM |
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Elvin said:
Just having a high growth in town is no fun, I'd rather raise and keep the skelies I harvest. The asymptomatic formula is a great idea though
You'd largely circumvent the problem of killing a Hydra and ending up with a Bone Dragon though  .
But I see your point, it's mostly passive and in essence, it's another resource for Arachnopolis to manage.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 17, 2015 10:46 AM |
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Malax83 said:
I ll boycott the game if there s nothing done on the diplomacy skill.
Don't think UBI will go bankrupt because of this:-)
There is nothing wrong in diplomacy from HMM3.
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 17, 2015 01:41 PM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 13:43, 17 Jun 2015.
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Don't think UBI will go bankrupt because of this:-)
There is nothing wrong in diplomacy from HMM3.
AH AH AH.
Here s a description of what could be done :
Unlike older series, the first chance for negociation is calculated on your recruitement at start of each week.
I pick Barbarians for example after second week, i build the five buildings for hobgobelin, orcs, wolf raiders, ogre and bird (with standart growth) :
95+90+105+160+180 = 630 (it s the scale i.e 100%, it s my strength recruitement army)
Here the fictive scale of diplomacy / percentage of stack
Novice : +20%
Expert : +30%
Master : +40%
Grandmaster : +50%
With my expert level, the strength of my diplomacy is about 840.
Here the roll :
0 - 19 : miss
20 - 39 : roll negociation again (maximum creatures joining you = 50%)
40 - 59 : flee
60 - 79 : joining with 50 % of the troops
80 - 99 : joining with 75 % of the troops
For example, I m figthing againt a lot of halbardier then a group of demons. their value is 25*10=250 and 15*35=525
The roll is calculated with the fictive strength army (*expert) less the strength of the ennemy divided by (real) strength army of recruitement
The first roll is done with negative modification -7 ( (840-250)/630 .)
The second roll is capped by the figth before with halberdier.
840-250 = 590
The second roll is done with the negative modification -90 ( (590-525)/630) .)
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 17, 2015 01:44 PM |
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You forgot the chances, that troops can join for fee of resources (all or part of).
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Malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted June 17, 2015 01:57 PM |
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Edited by Malax83 at 17:00, 17 Jun 2015.
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Macron1 said:
You forgot the chances, that troops can join for fee of resources (all or part of).
They never join for free.
As i would explain,
they can send some emissaries over the world to convince troops to join you, in speaking and lying on your strength army value per week. They can t convince every troops in only one week.
PS : SECOND EXAMPLE with the scale value (20,30,40,50) and the diplomacy roll (0-19,20-39,40-59,60-79,80-99)
I m now figthing againt a lot of halbardier then a horde of gremlins. their value is 25*10=250 and 65*4=260
The first roll is the same : -7 ((cf. 1) example)
The second roll is done with the negative modification -47 ( (590-260)/630) .)
the gremlins could flee after the diplomacy roll.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 17, 2015 05:06 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
BUT I WAS. It was there, in the post, 1st sentence, Necromancy, noticed now? IDC about somebodies assumptions based on info from 1/4 of a year back...
You can only win, by playing the game. How about trying it out befor your next bright assumption.
Well I am just saying that the issue with Hit Points is not only in Necromancy, but in battles. This would be interesting if it was an exception in some boss battles, but not mandatory.
Also, how can I even try when their "closed beta" is finished? Not like I would even play, with those high PC requirements (at least they told they will be lowered down for the final release). I have seen enough from the videos, no thanks.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted June 17, 2015 05:32 PM |
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Finding bugs when showing off the Beta game on Live Streaming was priceless.
I saw the whole Live Streaming via IGN's Live Streaming service and, heard them, almost, swear on camera about themselves finding all kinds of gamebreaking bugs while showing their abilities at playing it quite well(Ahem! Turns Out these two clowns do not have the slightest idea of how to play; IE running out of money before building the city hall=LOL).
No wonder Ubisoft America did not want to embarass themselves with such a blunder of a Strategy Game.
Guess that I will have to chance it out in September. Plenty of factions not done yet BTW. Plus, only three(3) months to go for the official release of the game.
Smells like a major delay in the official release. December push over or, worse case scenario, all the way to Spring of 2016.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2015 06:17 PM |
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LucPatenaude said:
Smells like a major delay in the official release. December push over or, worse case scenario, all the way to Spring of 2016.
Really? I thought best case scenario the game gets published spring or summer 2016... Worst case scenario game comes out as planned this autumn full of bugs and balancing problems. I have VERY hard time seeing how they would fix all the problems given that we haven't even seen everything. The "beta" was very limited in many ways so it's possible that there is way more things to be fixed than problems already found.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 17, 2015 07:25 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
Well I am just saying that the issue with Hit Points is not only in Necromancy, but in battles. This would be interesting if it was an exception in some boss battles, but not mandatory.
Also, how can I even try when their "closed beta" is finished? Not like I would even play, with those high PC requirements (at least they told they will be lowered down for the final release). I have seen enough from the videos, no thanks.
And this is where you are wrong again my friend. Wrong so much it actually hurts.
First of all, when you compare the HP distribution in the Beta to that of Heroes VI, you will see an abyssmal difference..
I spoke about avarage HP per tier, So I will continue with this.
The avarage of tiers in H6 vs H7 c-beta is
Core: H7b=15,34/16 vs H6=22,34/26
What is worse, the weakest upgreaded core in H6 (Vestal) has more HP that the strongest upgreaded core in H7 (Silverback)
Elite: H7b=52,67/60 vs H6=80/86.67
Champion: H7b=170/190 vs H6=300/325
(Only landsknecht taken as an example)
Do you see it now? The HP distribution has been cut down by more then 25% when compared to H6. This is as if you would take the entire pre-shool age of a 20 year old student away.
Not to mention that the population has been lowered aswell, thus giving more impact to direct dmg spells and neutral dwellings (factional or factionless). The system of population boosting buildings has been changed aswell. So no. Whatever made you think H7 will have the same "Too much HP" problem as H6 did, you were wrong, and the person who said this (looking at you Stevie) was wrong aswell.
Looking at these numbers, you know what else I noticed? That if there is a game I would compare them to, It would be H3 more then anything elese. Basic cores having the HP of Level 2 units, Stronger core unit that of a Level 3. Basic Elites equal aprox. 4-5 whyle stronger elite is almost the same as a level 6. The champion is much weaker then the level 7 unit though.
This is not an H6 HP distribution, It is at the same line as H3 or H5.
And about the games PC requirements
The game, even in its beta, is actually surprisingly good in the are of running even on abysmall machines. I have a 4+ year old notebook, that wasn't even good at its time. The only thing I fullfill from the requirements are the 4gb ram. But I actually made the game run! Shure Not on high settings and the loading of features and maps was long. But I was able to play it! Just to compare, the minimu of the beta was an Intel Core i5 660 3.3 GHz, I have an 2.13 GHz machine and it ran!
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted June 17, 2015 08:23 PM |
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Tell them Dave_Jame 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 17, 2015 09:54 PM |
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Maybe you do have a point. Just maybe. But it still feels off, like something is missing.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
