|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
posted June 15, 2015 10:35 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
I'd love to be able to raise different creatures depending of what you are killing, but capped per battle instead of having one bar for the whole week for all your heroes.
Impossible to balance. Dark Energy was the only logical step to go in order to balance Necromancy, and hence for me, this was the right solution.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 10:40 PM |
|
|
I think it could work with very low numbers, take a similar approach of H4 (xp based). I'd say H4 is a good example, although not perfect (raising vampires out of leprechauns made no sense lol  )
Simply masses of skeletons is dull...
Oh well, Necromancy will always be a tricky issue. Nothing new here 
____________
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 10:49 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
I think it could work with very low numbers, take a similar approach of H4 (xp based). I'd say H4 is a good example, although not perfect (raising vampires out of leprechauns made no sense lol )
Raising vampires at all was overpowered in that game.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 10:52 PM |
|
|
Certainly, but let's not forget H4 didn't experience the best balance - and Vampires were easily the best level 3 creature, hands down. It was ridiculous 
Still, a system where you can raise up to a limited amount of xp creatures (which one depending of what you killed), only raising unupgraded creatures could work really nice. You could also have a perk to raise upgraded core units, more core units and such to keep numbers fair. The idea is to reward multiple battles, and not one big fight like TotE's DE does.
____________
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 10:59 PM |
|
Edited by kiryu133 at 23:03, 15 Jun 2015.
|
That "one big fight" TotE apparently encouraged didn't work very well since the damn game didn't tell you you could split stacks making it seem like you couldn't afford any of them. minor nitpick but still.
Limiting to % of fallen enemies each combat rather than "dark energy" with the TotE system would be better.
EDIT: Maybe make necromancy for getting bone-golems instead of raising other creatures? I mean you take the bodies from the battlefield and put them all together into some horrible freak of nature since getting human skeletons from wolves or griffins make no sense. It should be unavailable through other means.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:01 PM |
|
Edited by Gryphs at 23:08, 15 Jun 2015.
|
kiryu133 said:
Limiting to % of fallen enemies each combat rather than "dark energy" with the TotE system would be better.
"Would be"? That is what they are doing.
|
|
RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:02 PM |
|
|
kiryu133 said:
That "one big fight" TotE apparently encouraged didn't work very well since the damn game didn't tell you you could split stacks making it seem like you couldn't afford any of them. minor nitpick but still.
Limiting to % of fallen enemies each combat rather than "dark energy" with the TotE system would be better.
In ToTE it was actually both % of the fallen + dark energy.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
|
|
Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:04 PM |
|
|
Something tells me that we'll have artifact set which will allow to raise Ghosts and Liches instead of Skeletons...
Overall, Necromancy seems good, although some skills may use a better wording (Ghost Ride, Eternal Servitude). I believe Bone Dragons may also be ressurected, maybe via a special building.
P.S.: namtarus officially back... 
____________
Let's play poker game, lich-style!
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:13 PM |
|
|
Well, there is a possibility to balance the Necromancy in ToE but this would require a serious weakening of Necro units, what would be something highly undesirable by many players... Finding golden mean in that case is a very challenging task, for which Limbic is simply not ready. Still, I would prefer one "raise" of Vampires per week than the constant inflow of Skellies and Banshees. At least abilities are decent. 
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:40 PM |
|
|
kiryu133 said:
Limiting to % of fallen enemies each combat rather than "dark energy" with the TotE system would be better.
% of fallen enemies is much easily broken than H4 XP system, IMO. Is the difference between an exponential and a linear system...
____________
|
|
ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:52 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
I think it could work with very low numbers, take a similar approach of H4 (xp based). I'd say H4 is a good example, although not perfect (raising vampires out of leprechauns made no sense lol )
Simply masses of skeletons is dull...
Oh well, Necromancy will always be a tricky issue. Nothing new here
even if you are able to raise one elite per battle it will be kind of OP after a few battles. an we already knew aobut necromancy from the leaks so indeed nothing new. except that blood- "monster" (still laughing about this one)
____________
|
|
icefield
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2015 11:55 PM |
|
|
Necromancy was considered overpowered on typical maps in all games from H2 on, and in particular in H5 vanilla where you could raise ranged skellies. The system of ToE was an attempt at solving this problem, I'm curious how they want to deal with this in H7, if they return to the old system.
The ToE system is like most racial powers within H5 - you can spend hours within a single turn moving sliders and pushing buttons for a small improvement in army efficiency. How many choices do you have for equipping an Academy army with micro-artifacts? If you like, you can do this with 8 heroes each turn.
Sometimes I want to play with features like this, but it's not the idea of a Heroes game - the game combines many aspects but none of them should dominate and slow down the overall gameplay. (In H6, battles are slow which is much worse, however.)
If I feel like it, I can play H5. In a new game, I'd prefer racials that have less choices and fiddling with the UI, but the choices should matter.
Regarding classic necromancy, I just wonder how they want to limit necromancy from becoming OP again - maybe instead of an extra resource (dark energy), cap the amount of skellies per week per hero by knowledge or spell power? Very simple, scales with time, so could work.
|
|
Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 01:53 AM |
|
|
On one hand, H5 TotE's system was a cool addition: everything you kill is accounted for! On the other hand though... how? Why do things like Griffins and Cerberi become Ghosts? If it's because they are fast units, then why do hydra become them? If it's because they are beasts, then why do Grim Raiders become vampires? Why do Paladins go down 2 ranks to Vampire(6->4), and yet Djinn go up a rank to Wight? (5->6) Why do Peasants stay as Skeletons, but Shield Guard become Zombies? Why do nearly all non-magical shooters become Skeleton Archers, except for Succubi, which instead become Vampires? Why not liches?
This all comes from here, which was based off the HoF system, and not exactly TotE, so if they changed a bit, I wouldn't know a better source.
Now, of course, this could be redone as a new system in H7, with "better thought out" linkages. Except, as of right now, what would happen to Spiders? What would die to become them? Wolves? What does the Cabir, elven Hunters, Gnolls, and Marksmen become? What would classify a unit as a Skeleton over a Ghost? Which one is the Pixie, and the Dryad? Is a harpy a Ghost or a Spider? Which champs would become Dragons over Reapers? Just the dragon champs? Then in ~1/4 situations, you'll get dragons, but ~3/4 you'll get Reapers. The balance of the choices would mean you'd almost always want a Reaper as your champ. Of course, I say "~1/4" because Titans count as Constructs. That means there will already be an imbalance to the division, if I understand that Constucts are exempt from the whole Living and Undead qualifier. A Wizard hero already has more of a reason to use the Titan against a necro player just to perhaps deny yet another body to Necromancy. If you tried to evenly divvy it up, then what would classify a Behemoth to one and Cyclops to the other? Does the Seraph become a dragon? Would the Simmurgh? If the Simmurgh counts as a Dragon, are Reaper users shafted when they go up against Academy, with either Dragons rising from the giant birds but not enough slots to use them, and the Titans supplying nothing? Would it be the other way around, and have even less of a reason to use the dragons in the first place? Does a Hydra classify? What does the living tree become? Then you have the Lamasu. What counts for them? Liches, perhaps, are easy, as they just come from Disciples, Abbots, and Druids. But then what of the Medusa? The cavalier? The justicar? The minotaur? Are these Vampires? Are they Lamasu? Are Centaurs shooty enough to become Liches? Are Basilisks Lamasus? Should units cross the few tier boundaries? If there is no core shooter, would you keep core units as Skeletons and Ghosts, or make them into Liches? Is a wyvern dragon enough to be a bone dragon, or is it stuck as a lamasu Is a basilisk not winged enough to be a dragon? If so, then why would it be a lamasu? Does it become a spider instead, or a vampire? There would be tons more questions along the same lines. Or should we forget body types and focus on their pure place in the faction? Then why would one become a Vampire over a Lamasu if they both "fly"? What about all those shooters? If both the Spider and Ghost are "fast", then what should define a unit to one or the other? Flight?
Or, they could just go with a flat "it doesn't matter, skeletons". This removes all these questions, all the strained logic of why one unit is what but the other is that, and removes the problem of having an unbalanced choice between Bone Dragons and Reapers. Pretty much every Necro hero is going to use Skeletons now, no way around it. Sure, it might not make as much "sense" as trying to divvy it up, but then again, any sense making a giant lizard ridden by a goblin would turn into a dead lion/bat/scorpion/human thing beast, or a dragon, or a spider, makes as much sense as turning it into a simple skeleton. As well as the Treants, and the deer, and the centaur...
It may not be the best solution, but I for one believe it is better than trying to balance all those specifications, especially when you have to make things need to become a Spider as balanced as they become Ghosts or Skeletons. It seems to me that's how these racials are going: more streamlining and easier to understand.
As for the limitations, I am skeptical. I was rather annoyed by the limits put on TotE's Dark Energy, as I thought the game's viable growth rate already scaled: neutral stacks grow over time. There already is a growth mechanism in place. As such, the more you kill, the more you are prepared to kill a bigger stack the next week, and so forth. And there is already a percent cap in the skill itself. Why does the skill have another limit on top of the percentage limit? You could just stay with a built in "cap" that doesn't require another resource to fix it all. The only question is, which is better, percent stack, or percent health points? If a H3 Necro hero was lucky to find peasants, what a lucky day indeed. But if he had to fight numerous high tier units, tough luck getting more than 10 bodies. As with this, you can't just target the weaklings in masses anymore, though I suppose that would reduce some strategy and choice. Before, Necro heroes could make these choices... yet, why would you not go for the stacks fit for the slaughter? Now they have to make the same choices as everyone else: what is the stack guarding? This does reduce uniqueness between factions, though, but yet it also takes away the "no brainer" choice of going after the swarms over the heavy hitters. I would imagine that the XP based and HP based systems would work similarly.
|
|
alexine
Known Hero
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 10:03 AM |
|
|
Necromancy raises skeletons only ?  I am not a necropolis player so i dont care that much but I am surprised ... it was great in H5
____________
We´re beautiful like diamonds in the sky ...
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 01:05 PM |
|
|
|
Despite the Necromancy itself, I must say that abilities tied with Necromancy are superb. All of them are useful and these abilities should serve as a blueprint for all other abilities in the game.
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 04:51 PM |
|
|
One thing I noticed, and I find somewhat disturbing, is that necromancy is based on HP rather then the number of fallen creatures. Since I expect Skeletons to be very weak creatures with low HP, this can lead to situations where you resurrect more creatures then you kill.
For example if skelies have 10HP, and you have expert necromancy, and kill two creatures with 100hp, you end up beeing able to reise up to 3 skeletons. I don't think I like this.
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 05:55 PM |
|
|
Dave_Jame said:
One thing I noticed, and I find somewhat disturbing is that necromancy is based on HP rather then the number of fallen creatures. Since I expect Skeletons to be very weak creatures with low HP, this can lead to situations where you resurrect more creatures then you kill.
For example if skelies have 10HP, and you have expert necromancy, and kill two creatures with 100hp, you end up beeing able to reise up to 3 skeletons. I don't think I like this.
Doubtful, looks like core units will again have 20+ hit points, considering champ units can only kill handful of creatures, like in H6.
|
|
Steyn
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 06:09 PM |
|
|
Usually there is a cap that you cannot raise more creatures than killed.
____________
Can you make a faction including these units?
Join the Finding Harmony competition 2.0!
|
|
Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 08:46 PM |
|
|
Steyn said:
Usually there is a cap that you cannot raise more creatures than killed.
Usually the basis for necromance has been the number of troops, not their HP. You can't raise more then 100% of the basis you are starting from. But in this case, the basis is not the number of units, but their life force
EnergyZ said:
Doubtful, looks like core units will again have 20+ hit points, considering champ units can only kill handful of creatures, like in H6.
What made you think so? Did you take a look at the game?
Currently, core creatures have an avarage of 17,5/20,5 Hp this includes the "stronger" elites, which the skelies, as basic troop, IMHO won't be.
The avarage of a "basic" core troop at this time is 13,5/15 hp. So deep below 20 HP avarage.
Elites are much more varied but the stronger elites tend to have 95/110 avarage. This make the avarage basic core having 14,2/13,6% of a stronger elite.
And I'm not even talking about Champion units. Their HP starts at 170 and goes as far as 200 (Landsknecht, Arcane eagle). Earth elementals even go as far as 250hp. So more then 15x the avarage of an upgraded basic core unit.
So there are several situations where the precentage can play in favore over the total number of units. Example: 10 sword mastes have a total of 1900 HP, 15% of this (Expert necromancy) is 285 HP. If the Skeletons would be avarage creatures, when it comes to HP, and I think they will be below this number, then the 15% of the 10 Sword masters would equal to aprox. 22/19 skeletons.
Are you getting my point now?
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted June 16, 2015 09:09 PM |
|
|
thick bones. you can divide them into several smaller ones.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
