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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 17, 2015 10:00 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
First of all, when you compare the HP distribution in the Beta to that of Heroes VI, you will see an abyssmal difference..
I spoke about avarage HP per tier, So I will continue with this.
The avarage of tiers in H6 vs H7 c-beta is
Core: H7b=15,34/16 vs H6=22,34/26
What is worse, the weakest upgreaded core in H6 (Vestal) has more HP that the strongest upgreaded core in H7 (Silverback)
Elite: H7b=52,67/60 vs H6=80/86.67
Champion: H7b=170/190 vs H6=300/325
(Only landsknecht taken as an example)
Do you see it now? The HP distribution has been cut down by more then 25% when compared to H6.
Ehm well these data are sort of inconclusive. Yes HP of cores have been cut down to roughly 2/3 of the H6 levels (62 %), but same is the case for Elites (69 %) and Champions (58 %). As such, one can argue the relative strength of these creatures remain more or less unchanged?
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What will happen now?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted June 17, 2015 10:28 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Ehm well these data are sort of inconclusive. Yes HP of cores have been cut down to roughly 2/3 of the H6 levels (62 %), but same is the case for Elites (69 %) and Champions (58 %). As such, one can argue the relative strength of these creatures remain more or less unchanged?
The biggest unknown in this is actually the damage units (and spells) deal. If HP has decreased effectively by 25% but damage has decreased by 50% at the same time, it still takes longer to kill units. Note that damage is not just the attack power of creatures, but defense of enemy creatures as well, making it more complex.
But I don't have the numbers ready, I don't know how effective damage has changed with respect to H6.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 17, 2015 11:07 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Ehm well these data are sort of inconclusive. Yes HP of cores have been cut down to roughly 2/3 of the H6 levels (62 %), but same is the case for Elites (69 %) and Champions (58 %). As such, one can argue the relative strength of these creatures remain more or less unchanged?
The truth is, that these numbers are just one part of a complex equation, and until we have the opportunity to properly explore the other part, they mean nothing.
The HP pool numbers are useless if we do not know the ration of Dmg output. If the Dmg has been reduced in the same way the result would be no change at all. 10/2 is the same as 15/3.
The other part here would be made of Dmg of units, impact of Attack and Defence, and the distribution of Attack and Defence boost throughout the game.
If the Power of units would be the same, the "pace" would be much faster. 12 divided by 3 is less than when you divide it by 2.
Sadly the Beta is done, and I do not have access to the date to take a look at this.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted June 18, 2015 12:18 AM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 00:20, 18 Jun 2015.
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Dave_Jame said:
alcibiades said:
Ehm well these data are sort of inconclusive. Yes HP of cores have been cut down to roughly 2/3 of the H6 levels (62 %), but same is the case for Elites (69 %) and Champions (58 %). As such, one can argue the relative strength of these creatures remain more or less unchanged?
The truth is, that these numbers are just one part of a complex equation, and until we have the opportunity to properly explore the other part, they mean nothing.
The HP pool numbers are useless if we do not know the ration of Dmg output. If the Dmg has been reduced in the same way the result would be no change at all. 10/2 is the same as 15/3.
The other part here would be made of Dmg of units, impact of Attack and Defence, and the distribution of Attack and Defence boost throughout the game.
If the Power of units would be the same, the "pace" would be much faster. 12 divided by 3 is less than when you divide it by 2.
Sadly the Beta is done, and I do not have access to the date to take a look at this.
Here you go unit stats and abilities:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1157316-Info-Unit-stats
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2015 12:24 AM |
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Edited by TD at 00:49, 18 Jun 2015.
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Does anybody have the stats written up from beta? I only remember roughly some core and elite stats. Champions lost good chunk in stats I think, which is possibly part of the reason why they don't feel much stronger overall compared to h6.
On quick comparison though h6 had much higher damage with creatures than h7 along with health as previously mentioned, but the correlation between the two didn't change much. For example praetorian average damage is 3,5 while in h7 legionare had 1,5.
h6 Sentinel / h7 Legionnaire
hp: 32 / 17
Dmg: 3-4 / 1-2
Defense: 10 / 8
atk: 5 / 5
The stats are little higher on h7 I think in comparison to dmg and hp, but it's hard to make direct comparison since stat-values might not be the same(as in how much 5 atk boosts in h6 vs h7). The damage correlation compared to creatures own health is about the same in both games aside champ and strong-"tier". However I think h7 has more powerful spells which in turn does make units in a way weaker in h7. Just by quick try at h6 though I'm sure the difference isn't even as big as 25% overall(and I don't even feel that would be enough). Just thinking back on h7 battles where you had dozens of mages shoot at your gargoyles or golems and you lose only couple units is very little.
I'm sure devs will do a lot of tweaking in creature stats still though. Otherwise the no-loss battles from h6 are back to stay. It was too easy to creep around in the beta. Especially with magic hero it was almost impossible to get losses. Would be a whole lot more enlightening anyhow if we had rest of the factions to test anyway. Having 2 factions to compare between each other and h6 isn't really much of a control group. I did notice though that in H7 the both factions felt to have too equal troops compared to each other. For example cabir was basically same as crossbowman, gargoyle was same as legionare if you looked at the stats and damage. (That is a major fear for me if they will stay the same and rest of factions are balanced the same way.)
Edit:
Wellplay thanks for the link to statistics. As you can compare the stats are good bit lower in h7 on champions, dmg is about the same, hp is good bit lower. Elites are about the same in h7 and h6. Strong elite is clearly different from rest. Core got the biggest nerf for hp and dmg compared to rest.
H6 sun rider / h7 cuirassier
hp: 95 / 100
dmg: 14-16 / 25-33
atk: 20 / 20
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 18, 2015 01:57 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:58, 18 Jun 2015.
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MadDemiurg
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2015 01:04 PM |
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Spell damage for low/mid tier spells is improved.
In H5 fireball or meteor shower deal 20*SP damage at max mastery.
In H7 fireball deals 30*SP damage.
It's difficult to compare with H6 as all creatures had quite a bit or magic resist there, so raw damage numbers don't say much.
Also, base mana regeneration is doubled, so damaging magic feels much more powerful.
They nerfed most of high level CC into oblivion though.
But buffs/debuffs scale with magic now. I don't know who though this would be a great idea, but +/- 2*SP attack/defense buffs/debuffs seem OP.
Granted, half of the beta content seems OP, an I'm not sure what's the most OP thing tbh.
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MadDemiurg
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 19, 2015 01:07 PM |
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted June 19, 2015 02:01 PM |
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TD said:
I did notice though that in H7 the both factions felt to have too equal troops compared to each other. For example cabir was basically same as crossbowman, gargoyle was same as legionare if you looked at the stats and damage. (That is a major fear for me if they will stay the same and rest of factions are balanced the same way.
Cabirs and crossbowmen basically the same? Legionares and gargoyles? No, i dont agree with that. Except from beeing ranged the cabirs and crossbowmen have very different abilities and roles. Legionares just stand around protecting ranged units, and have very low damage, while the gargoyles are more agile flankers for the golems. Also with very different abilities. And in that regard matching stats doesnt really matter as much since you use the units differently. The factions felt very diverse to play with.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 19, 2015 02:28 PM |
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Interesting to see the full stats. They seem to have effectively half abandoned the tier system, and the game is all the better for it, at least Rakshasa and Cavalier are considerably stronger than the other elites, which added a nice dynamic to the game. I hope they'll do the same for the cores; the Wolfs and Golems didn't seem to have the same impact, even though these units on paper look like they are the ones intended to stand out.
____________
What will happen now?
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted June 19, 2015 02:46 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 14:51, 19 Jun 2015.
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Marksman has full range and piercing shot compared to half range of Cabir Master.
So saying that units are the same is a bit ignorant. 
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted June 19, 2015 02:57 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:59, 19 Jun 2015.
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I understand that Earth elemental is supposed to be bulky but 250 HP is waaay to much. Otherwise - these stats begin to resemble to me the ones from Heroes V what is a good sign to me. One thing that I would also like to point out - I believe that Marksmen getting the full range instead of half range is an improvement big enough for an upgrade. They don't need Piercing shot, just like Fire Elementals don't need Nova ability. Instead, Fire Elementals should get their traditional ability, meaning the one that does recoil damage to the unit that attacks it directly.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 19, 2015 02:59 PM |
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Yes, Cabirs and crossbowmen felt same to me. They do same average damage. Once enemy is closer cabir is actually better shooter(+ it will fix its "meat"-shield!). Gargoyle does same as legionare, protect the shooters and they have almost same stats. I mean sure, because because of the AI(Artificial Idiot) you can go flank enemy with them because of screwed up prioritizing, but if you think how you would play against another player I kinda doubt you would leave your shooters open. Golem works basically exactly the same as gargoyle(and since I often had troops joining of different form I had them both as meat-shields. Even the strong cores felt pretty much the same, golem being actually stronger because it was easy to fix. Wolf on the other hand would take good pounding(against single target it was better though)
Elite shooters didn't really feel any different either. Piercing shot is pretty much never possible because the AI often just runs around randomly. Upgrade to full-range + nova-ability for discipline is only thing that seperates them for me. AI being so idiotic that it often gathers to middle to just get shot with area-spells.
Sorry, but to me the factions felt way too similar. Part of the problem is that they have the same hero classes essentially so the play-styles stay too similar also.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted June 19, 2015 04:44 PM |
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Anybody know how stat development works for the heroes? I liked how in heroes V each faction had a tendency towards certain stat distributions: academy, for example, had the highest chance at level up to increase knowledge, then spellpower, then offense and defense, where dungeon had the highest chance to increase offense and spellpower. are the magic heroes from, say, academy in homm vii going to have different stat distributions on level up than magic heroes from haven or stronghold?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted June 19, 2015 05:08 PM |
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PROJ said:
Anybody know how stat development works for the heroes? I liked how in heroes V each faction had a tendency towards certain stat distributions: academy, for example, had the highest chance at level up to increase knowledge, then spellpower, then offense and defense, where dungeon had the highest chance to increase offense and spellpower. are the magic heroes from, say, academy in homm vii going to have different stat distributions on level up than magic heroes from haven or stronghold?
I think that people played the game not long enough to determine theexact stat distribution bit it is more than sure that each class will have a different one.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted June 19, 2015 05:20 PM |
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properkheldar said:
TD said:
I did notice though that in H7 the both factions felt to have too equal troops compared to each other. For example cabir was basically same as crossbowman, gargoyle was same as legionare if you looked at the stats and damage. (That is a major fear for me if they will stay the same and rest of factions are balanced the same way.
Cabirs and crossbowmen basically the same? Legionares and gargoyles? No, i dont agree with that. Except from beeing ranged the cabirs and crossbowmen have very different abilities and roles. Legionares just stand around protecting ranged units, and have very low damage, while the gargoyles are more agile flankers for the golems. Also with very different abilities. And in that regard matching stats doesnt really matter as much since you use the units differently. The factions felt very diverse to play with.
I don't believe that. When Academy was released, many compared the abilities to be quite similar to Haven (namely, Sweep (rakshasa and sword master), Pierce Shot (crossbowman and apprentice)). So I wouldn't be surprised if the stats were similar as well, like gargoyle and sentinel being defensive.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2015 05:30 PM |
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EnergyZ said:
I don't believe that. When Academy was released, many compared the abilities to be quite similar to Haven (namely, Sweep (rakshasa and sword master), Pierce Shot (crossbowman and apprentice)). So I wouldn't be surprised if the stats were similar as well, like gargoyle and sentinel being defensive.
The stats will be the same because of ubisoft(cheapness,fast result erc).
Two abilities just happen to be the same. That's it.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted June 19, 2015 05:38 PM |
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2015 05:53 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 17:55, 19 Jun 2015.
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Wellplay said:
Druid
A small part of me still thinks it's gonna be a dude...
I dont wanna se a "hard" druid lady. Elvish ladies should be more elegant and ethereal.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted June 19, 2015 06:12 PM |
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Wellplay said:
Druid
Or.. its a hero.. neh :-P
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