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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 05, 2015 11:07 AM |
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That's the fault of the skill in that case. Not allowing any army to use it locks away a ton of strategies and tactics behind arbitrary rules that does not serve any purpose other than reinforcing the same tactics over and over. Why should i not be allowed to try out righteousness with my academy army? Or metamagic with Sylvan. There is no good reason to not allow it. Skills should be tied to heroes, not creature "allegiance".
I do agree that mixing creatures should give a noticeable morale penalty if you mix enough of them: H3 did that well with a bonus if all were from the same town with neutral morale if 2 different factions and an additional -1 for each faction after that (-2 for undead). With at leas one artifact designed to counter this: there should be legitimate strategies in mixing.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2015 11:50 AM |
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But you can try meta-magic with sylvan army or can you not? Meta magic is essentially purely all about the wizard and has nothing to do with army(or their racial traits). Nature's revenge and righteousness are tied to their factions beliefs, social norms being essentially kind of racial trait that's part of everybody in those factions vs wizard/necromancer being just about magic in general seperate from his army essentially.
From your example academy troops don't believe in Elrath or holy empire which is why they don't get the righteusness. On the other hand if you got cuirassier under the banner of dungeon for example it can't be seen really serving holy empire or Elrath anymore so it doesn't have righteousness anymore. In both cases the units have became more of mercenaries at that point. This is at least how I see the case personally, but as I said to me it's more of balancing-issue. I'd much rather get more freedom to skill-tree having everything open to as you put it, unlock more strategies and tactics.
Btw you could see that "racial restriction" also as something that forces you to create new tactics instead of just focusing it so intensively on the single racial tactic 
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 05, 2015 11:57 AM |
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Mixing creatures from different factions should not be heavily discouraged - racials as we have seen them do that - or else neutral towns will become glorified gold mines, in which you will have little to no interest in investing in creature buildings. And to put it bluntly, that sucks. Less variety, less replayability, less fun.
I'd advocate for a more punishing morale penalty system when mixing creatures - iirc, H5 did a good job, only that the racials totally discouraged mixing armies, ever - so you won't be able to support a frankenstein army with creatures from 6 different factions, but still be able to get away with a couple of stacks from another faction.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 05, 2015 12:08 PM |
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I never actually had morale problems in h5 either from mixed armies, it has always been too easy to balance them out. The racials in general didn't make me choose my army there either. What's even worse in h7 is that you can take out the whole morale penalty with single novice ability...(I hate how they totally over simplified the game as I've said before)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 05, 2015 05:43 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
that's just lore reasoning and you know what i think about lore reasoning getting in the way of gameplay.
If i want to use "nature's revenge" with a stronghold army, i should be able to use "nature's revenge" with a stronghold army as long as i get a Sylvan hero. That would just raises the skill ceiling without raising the skill floor, which is exactly what should be aimed for. If a faction gets unbalanced by this it's a fault with the skill, not the faction.
I don't agree, this is not lore reasoning at all imo (and I'm as much against lore reasoning as anybody). For me, this is about coherency and making the idea of a faction/race actually having some significance in the game. I think the hero and the units of each faction should be an integrated whole and not two separate parts that can be mixed as it fits. If you do that, the whole concept of having a faction with associated heroes loses significance. I accept your point about replayability, but still I like it better if the "racial ability" is actually tied to the entire faction, and not just the breed of the hero.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 05, 2015 06:19 PM |
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alcibiades said:
I don't agree, this is not lore reasoning at all imo (and I'm as much against lore reasoning as anybody). For me, this is about coherency and making the idea of a faction/race actually having some significance in the game. I think the hero and the units of each faction should be an integrated whole and not two separate parts that can be mixed as it fits. If you do that, the whole concept of having a faction with associated heroes loses significance. I accept your point about replayability, but still I like it better if the "racial ability" is actually tied to the entire faction, and not just the breed of the hero.
meh, racials should have the best bonus and synergy with troops of the native faction, but they shouldn't be completely married to each other at gunpoint,
that would just be another step down the same road as "oh so sorry, Knights can't learn dark in Ashan because it is Ashan", aka "no you can't do anything creative with the mercenary heroes to mix it up, you will follow the path we tell you to follow and you will like it" lol
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 05, 2015 07:08 PM |
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Well it depends on the actual skill. In H5 you had counterstrike, which could apply to any faction (besides that upgrade effect). Then you got that blood rage from Stronghold and it would be odd to see mages outraging like that.
I don't know. Maybe if the effects changed here and there, maybe it would work on all factions.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 05, 2015 07:37 PM |
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verriker said:
alcibiades said:
I don't agree, this is not lore reasoning at all imo (and I'm as much against lore reasoning as anybody). For me, this is about coherency and making the idea of a faction/race actually having some significance in the game. I think the hero and the units of each faction should be an integrated whole and not two separate parts that can be mixed as it fits. If you do that, the whole concept of having a faction with associated heroes loses significance. I accept your point about replayability, but still I like it better if the "racial ability" is actually tied to the entire faction, and not just the breed of the hero.
meh, racials should have the best bonus and synergy with troops of the native faction, but they shouldn't be completely married to each other at gunpoint,
that would just be another step down the same road as "oh so sorry, Knights can't learn dark in Ashan because it is Ashan", aka "no you can't do anything creative with the mercenary heroes to mix it up, you will follow the path we tell you to follow and you will like it" lol
+1
Maybe my example of H5 wasn't the right one (I swear it applied bigger penalties if you mixed creatures of opposed factionsm, maybe I'm wrong ) but I'm still firmly convinced mixing creatures should be viable in some form/shape.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 05, 2015 07:50 PM |
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Any improved use from faction skills should come from that faction being designed around that skill, not giving them higher bonuses.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted July 05, 2015 08:28 PM |
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So no hope about the same 5-6 abilities being used by every creature in the game?
Can we pass this on? Can we press on that? Any "insider" here?
Is it too late for them to fix that?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 09:07 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:09, 05 Jul 2015.
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verriker said:
meh, racials should have the best bonus and synergy with troops of the native faction, but they shouldn't be completely married to each other at gunpoint,
that would just be another step down the same road as "oh so sorry, Knights can't learn dark in Ashan because it is Ashan", aka "no you can't do anything creative with the mercenary heroes to mix it up, you will follow the path we tell you to follow and you will like it" lol
I agree completely. I do not see why a knights skill should not affect a elf simply for that reason.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 05, 2015 09:41 PM |
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Well EnergyZ brings up a valid point, that the class skills seem to fall in two different groups: Those that are related directly to the faction's creatures - Bloodrage is a prime example of that - and those that at least in principle works independently of the creatures - like the Knight skill. This difference is worth taking into consideration when discussing this, because do we want a "universal" solution (ie. same rules for all factions) or do we accept different cases (for instance: Knight skill works for all creatures, but Barbarian skill works only for Stronghold creatures)? And if we want a universal solution, do we then opt for everybody or for nobody? Personally I think a skill like Bloodrage doesn't make sense for non-Stronghold creatures (and yes, that IS a lore reasoning). I also think it would make the game a nightmare to balance, because there is bound to be some sort of combination (for instance: Sylvan creatures with Bloodrage) that's going to be imbalanced. And given that I don't really like the asymmetry associated with non-universal solutions, that's why I personally prefer a faction-only solution in all cases.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted July 05, 2015 09:47 PM |
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Do we know if Bloodrage will bring individual bonuses to each creature (like in ToE) or will there be one bonus for all (like in H6)?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 09:50 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:14, 05 Jul 2015.
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alcibiades said:
Well EnergyZ brings up a valid point, that the class skills seem to fall in two different groups: Those that are related directly to the faction's creatures - Bloodrage is a prime example of that - and those that at least in principle works independently of the creatures - like the Knight skill. This difference is worth taking into consideration when discussing this, because do we want a "universal" solution (ie. same rules for all factions) or do we accept different cases (for instance: Knight skill works for all creatures, but Barbarian skill works only for Stronghold creatures)? And if we want a universal solution, do we then opt for everybody or for nobody? Personally I think a skill like Bloodrage doesn't make sense for non-Stronghold creatures (and yes, that IS a lore reasoning). I also think it would make the game a nightmare to balance, because there is bound to be some sort of combination (for instance: Sylvan creatures with Bloodrage) that's going to be imbalanced. And given that I don't really like the asymmetry associated with non-universal solutions, that's why I personally prefer a faction-only solution in all cases.
I would prefer an universal solution that is non-faction dependant. Bloodrage mind was the only skill in H5 that was faction dependent. In my humble opinion if a skill has to be completely synergized with all aspects of that faction it should not exist at all.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted July 05, 2015 09:52 PM |
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Gryphs said:
Bloodrage mind was the only skill in H5 that was faction dependent.
What about Necromancy? This ability in fact constitutes the faction of Necropolis.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 09:54 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 21:55, 05 Jul 2015.
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Other factions could still benefit from the raised dead among other benefits, and I have used secondary necromancer heroes more than once as other factions because of that. Bloodrage was most certainly only useful to orcs.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 05, 2015 10:00 PM |
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Gryphs said:
Other factions could still benefit from the raised dead among other benefits, and I have used secondary necromancer heroes more than once as other factions because of that. Bloodrage was most certainly only useful to orcs.
Gating? How can you summon more humans and elves?
That, necromancy and blood rage are the critical points in my opinion. Others can go in (most) factions, although a bit hard.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 10:06 PM |
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That's true and I dislike that skill just like bloodrage.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 05, 2015 10:07 PM |
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you couldn't put creature artifacts on non-academy creatures and only haven troops could be trained so no, bloodrage was no the only skill.
Bloodrage and gating are really the only skills that has a lore reason as far (as I'm concerned) that stops them from being at least usable by other armies and those are not enough to take away so much potential depth and choice. Necromancy is the only standout skill i feel, but it's still not useless by other armies, it's just not necessarily in their best interest since they probably already have a full army and probably don't want heavy morale penalties if they don't. It's still usable but necromancy is mechanically frowned upon in-universe, which is pretty cool.
Removing a little logic is well worth the massive amount strategic depth it would bring and if it turns out imbalanced this way the developers has failed in making that a good faction-skill to begin with, so it'd be a failure either way.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 05, 2015 10:11 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 22:12, 05 Jul 2015.
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Well haven's skill did not just have to do with training troops though I concede I was wrong when I stated bloodrage was the only faction dependent skill in H5. Nevertheless I still dislike skills being completely faction synergized though a bit of both would seem to be the most interesting and fun option in my opinion.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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