|
|
TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
|
posted July 26, 2015 12:11 AM |
|
|
There should be a line defined between a TBS and a RP game... Too many features in favour of the latter attract many detractors...
____________
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 12:32 AM |
|
|
Marzhin said:
At least I hope we can agree that there shouldn't be one faction that clearly dominates all others. All factions should have their chance to win if played right.
Absolutely.
Marzhin said:
Storm-Giant said:
But the Dinasty bonuses were meant for Multiplayer? I call it bollocks
Not the way they were implemented in the final game, no. But the original idea was that you were able to carry over artifacts and experience between your online MP games, making multiplayer a sort of permanent campaign, with your custom heroes returning between games, etc.
It was not an uninteresting approach, I think.
That could work as a special multiplayer mode. For casual play could be great, even. I'll give you that.
But it goes against everything that makes multiplayer competitive. In any competitive game you start fresh after a new game, with little changes (maps in StarCraft, heroes in MOBAs, decks in Hearthstone etc). That's why I found your statement controversial. A matter of perspective, huh.
In any case, thank you for cleaning that up 
____________
|
|
Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 12:59 AM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
But it goes against everything that makes multiplayer competitive. In any competitive game you start fresh after a new game, with little changes (maps in StarCraft, heroes in MOBAs, decks in Hearthstone etc). That's why I found your statement controversial. A matter of perspective, huh.
Yeah sorry, I wrote that post in a hurry and I realize it's quite confusing and putting everything in the same bag, so to speak.
|
|
jhb
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 04:52 AM |
|
|
@Panda
Hmm, not sure if I understood your point, but I don't think balance necessarily means standardization. Just to clarify, I've been talking about a healthy balance here. And part of the goal is to keep the game fun and challenging.
@Storm
I have a feeling that we agree with each other more than we think. 
I'm aware that homm/mmh is more single player oriented as it should be, imo. 
But I have a little divergence here:
Storm-Giant said:
Heroes will be never a competitive balanced game.
Well, that's a very strong affirmative. =P
Maybe not at the level of starcraft and others you said, but I think there is room in heroes for its own niche of competitive games. Just look at Salamandre's quote as an example:
Salamandre said:
Look, I won't comment on that, cuz I am myself against all rules and prefer to have fun when playing (fun = surprise).
But a lot of people play MP with the obsession of climbing ranks, games last about 6-7 hours so I can understand one's frustration to find opponent joined 400 level 7 tiers because was lucky with diplo settings. If you read both H3 and H5 forums, you will spent an afternoon browsing the list of "what is banned and not to do in game".
These guys make their own rules for their tournaments. Many of us could find it boring, but they are having their fun with it.
My interest in heroes is mostly single player with some casual MP, I would probably not get into these competitions (could watch some streams though  ). Still, it's very cool to see that more serious MP gamers have interest in heroes and can also have their fun playing it.
Anyway, maybe not a priority to think about right now, but it's something to keep in mind.
Marzhin said:
At least I hope we can agree that there shouldn't be one faction that clearly dominates all others. All factions should have their chance to win if played right.
sure!
|
|
alexine
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 08:01 AM |
|
|
I hope the dynasty bonuses never come back ... advantage for players who finish campaign (never play this) and that always online ....
____________
We´re beautiful like diamonds in the sky ...
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 08:59 AM |
|
|
|
Even without the online aspect taken into account, it can be a real pain to level up dynasty weapons to their full potential. I'm not overly fond of grinding.
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 09:21 AM |
|
|
Kimarous said:
Even without the online aspect taken into account, it can be a real pain to level up dynasty weapons to their full potential. I'm not overly fond of grinding.
Roughly between 20 to 25 minutes for one, in the first map of the Necropolis campaign. Set creature growth to fastest and stack size to max before you begin, collect the Ghouls but leave the Skeletons. Forward to Month 28 (and that is why it takes so long) and pick up the Skeletons. They will be 999.999 in size by now. Dismiss the Ghouls, split the Skeletons in 7 equal stacks (as much as possible). Pick up the other stack of 999.999 skellies you encounter, and head for the exit. The Praetorians/Sentinels guarding the exit will run, and you have to let them go. They too will be 999.999 large. Letting them go gives you enough EXP to level up a DW from 1 to 5 instantly.
No need to use the Soul Forge or days of gameplay .
alexine said:
I hope the dynasty bonuses never come back ... advantage for players who finish campaign (never play this) and that always online ....
Well, that is true. In H6's campaign you find new DW's, and afterwards you get a Dynasty Trait which you can use. And if you've unlocked all 5 trait slots, there is a lot to use. However, you can choose to turn off Dynasty Bonuses if you host a Multiplayer Session (either Duel or a map). And from what I see when there are games online, most people choose this option.
Too bad  ...
And in single player there is no one to suffer from your advantage other than the AI, and that's not unfair, that's just bloody great fun. Level 5 Thunder Staff: has the power to Ground all enemy fliers, so if you face Griffins, Harpies etc, they can't do snow with their abilities and can only move a fraction of what they usually do. And the ability Lightning Rod, hitting the strongest stack in the enemy army with a Lightning Bolt each turn. I think it's one of my fav DW's .
____________
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 01:33 PM |
|
|
Marzhin said:
At least I hope we can agree that there shouldn't be one faction that clearly dominates all others. All factions should have their chance to win if played right.
I agree, except for campaigns. Might make a good story.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 02:29 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
But it goes against everything that makes multiplayer competitive. In any competitive game you start fresh after a new game, with little changes (maps in StarCraft, heroes in MOBAs, decks in Hearthstone etc). That's why I found your statement controversial. A matter of perspective, huh.
Well, after thinking a bit about Dynasty weapons in Multiplayer, they could have solved the issue to some degree: just allow all players to use Dynasty weapons from the start, limiting Dynasty weapon levels to the lowest level brought on the board. Even if other Dynasty weapons are higher level, they're scaled back for that game. Beyond that, it's personal preference. When equipping secondary Heroes during a game from the available Dynasty weapon pool, those levels are scaled too (only down, not up). Experience is still applied as long as there's room to gain more.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 02:31 PM |
|
|
Dies_Irae said:
Roughly between 20 to 25 minutes for one, in the first map of the Necropolis campaign. Set creature growth to fastest and stack size to max before you begin, collect the Ghouls but leave the Skeletons. Forward to Month 28 (and that is why it takes so long) and pick up the Skeletons. They will be 999.999 in size by now. Dismiss the Ghouls, split the Skeletons in 7 equal stacks (as much as possible). Pick up the other stack of 999.999 skellies you encounter, and head for the exit. The Praetorians/Sentinels guarding the exit will run, and you have to let them go. They too will be 999.999 large. Letting them go gives you enough EXP to level up a DW from 1 to 5 instantly.
Can't you do it faster when doing it multiple times? Just save right before heading to those Praetorians, and then after facing them, load the game, equip another one, rinse & repeat. Keep the save game for when you find a DW you didn't have yet. Of course, you need to have both a Might Hero and a Magic Hero for the two types of DW's.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 03:24 PM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 15:27, 26 Jul 2015.
|
Marzhin said:
Not the way they were implemented in the final game, no. But the original idea was that you were able to carry over artifacts and experience between your online MP games, making multiplayer a sort of permanent campaign, with your custom heroes returning between games, etc.
It was not an uninteresting approach, I think.
Same problems as before. Lots of grinding required, not everyone has the same level of DW (causing players with a headstart to have a serious advantage or making players disable DW in most games), too easy creeping. What might have worked would be starting from scratch in each game and unlocking a level every x levels of the hero. Same for everyone, no ridiculous bonuses from the start.
Still potential (guaranteed?) balance issues though, making this a bad feature for a vanilla game. Better to fix the hero/unit/spell/skill balance first before adding more balancing nightmares
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 03:35 PM |
|
|
Maurice said:
Dies_Irae said:
Roughly between 20 to 25 minutes for one, in the first map of the Necropolis campaign. Set creature growth to fastest and stack size to max before you begin, collect the Ghouls but leave the Skeletons. Forward to Month 28 (and that is why it takes so long) and pick up the Skeletons. They will be 999.999 in size by now. Dismiss the Ghouls, split the Skeletons in 7 equal stacks (as much as possible). Pick up the other stack of 999.999 skellies you encounter, and head for the exit. The Praetorians/Sentinels guarding the exit will run, and you have to let them go. They too will be 999.999 large. Letting them go gives you enough EXP to level up a DW from 1 to 5 instantly.
Can't you do it faster when doing it multiple times? Just save right before heading to those Praetorians, and then after facing them, load the game, equip another one, rinse & repeat. Keep the save game for when you find a DW you didn't have yet. Of course, you need to have both a Might Hero and a Magic Hero for the two types of DW's.
That doesn't work, unfortunately. So you really have to do each DW seperately. I use Anastasya for the Magic ones, and a random Might-oriented hero for the others. In an early patch the second Subterrain-entrance you encounter was unguarded, allowing you to pick up a stack of 999.999 Ghouls as well. With close to 2 million troops, you could then go to every stack and make them run, levelling up your entire arsenal of DW's as you went. In 2.1.1 however, said entrance is guarded by two stacks of Sentinels and a stack of Crossbowmen. At 999.999 each, there's no way to get past them. And exp gained in battles is capped, whereas exp from letting units go is seemingly unlimited.
____________
|
|
TD
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 03:47 PM |
|
|
Maurice said:
Dies_Irae said:
Roughly between 20 to 25 minutes for one, in the first map of the Necropolis campaign. Set creature growth to fastest and stack size to max before you begin, collect the Ghouls but leave the Skeletons. Forward to Month 28 (and that is why it takes so long) and pick up the Skeletons. They will be 999.999 in size by now. Dismiss the Ghouls, split the Skeletons in 7 equal stacks (as much as possible). Pick up the other stack of 999.999 skellies you encounter, and head for the exit. The Praetorians/Sentinels guarding the exit will run, and you have to let them go. They too will be 999.999 large. Letting them go gives you enough EXP to level up a DW from 1 to 5 instantly.
Can't you do it faster when doing it multiple times? Just save right before heading to those Praetorians, and then after facing them, load the game, equip another one, rinse & repeat. Keep the save game for when you find a DW you didn't have yet. Of course, you need to have both a Might Hero and a Magic Hero for the two types of DW's.
As I recall you could only get exp one time from single battle for a hero(and his weapon) and even that was later capped to 20k except for fort/town battles. You couldn't get more even if you loaded the game after for the hero/weapon. You could bypass that however by hiring secondary heroes as each different hero could get that exp from battle if you loaded and fought the town with another hero. That is at least how I leveled up most of my dynasty weapons to max in single game back then.
IMO the dynasty weapons/skills/pets were good addition to the series, but the implementation was just terrible as most things in h6. The weapons were completely unbalanced/bugged at start and it took very long time for them to get fixed(I dunno if they ever fixed them all).
|
|
Datapack
Famous Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 04:24 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
No, but they certainly has got their fair share of liches and spiky vampires.
Damn, shots fired metalheads.
|
|
The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 04:51 PM |
|
|
Lich and vampire 3d models are suppose to be up right? When I go to the webpage on my computer it still shows the old lich and vamp models but with the updated concept art I wanna see their attacks!!
|
|
Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 04:56 PM |
|
|
The_Green_Drag said:
Lich and vampire 3d models are suppose to be up right? When I go to the webpage on my computer it still shows the old lich and vamp models but with the updated concept art I wanna see their attacks!!
Purge your browser's cache.
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 05:14 PM |
|
|
Marzhin said:
Purge your browser's cache.
This sounds so cruel.
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 05:32 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
Marzhin said:
Purge your browser's cache.
This sounds so cruel.
Hey, we all have our own ways!
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 08:56 PM |
|
|
@jhb: oh, I definetly agree that some level of competition can be reached. I just think the number of variables in the game prevents it from reaching a level where I can comfortably say the best player can win no matter the odds...it's just too much.
But of course competitions can exist. It all depends of the game and the communtiy
____________
|
|
malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
|
|
posted July 26, 2015 10:31 PM |
|
|
Storm-Giant said:
@jhb: oh, I definetly agree that some level of competition can be reached. I just think the number of variables in the game prevents it from reaching a level where I can comfortably say the best player can win no matter the odds...it's just too much.
But of course competitions can exist. It all depends of the game and the communtiy
I like your point of view. Definetly you can represent myself in the langage of Shakespear.
I m afraid of modding, modders could as well done as HotA and do not care (a little) about community opinions - or as i wish, give a vote for each changes incoming. Wait and See, but i fear modding is not enought Wise.
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
