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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2015 06:22 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:23, 25 Jul 2015.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted July 25, 2015 06:27 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Salamandre said:
If Heroes 7 is multiplayer oriented then you leave diplomacy as it was/it is because you think it makes the heroes charm, then I am sorry to inform you that you are clueless what "multiplayer" is about 
You know, Heroes was never multiplayer oriented. Surveys and studies conducted after H5 and H6 reveal that the large majority of Heroes players (and we're talking about more than 80% here) actually only play campaigns and scenario maps, and never even clicked on the MP button.
I'm definitely not a MP player myself.
My first MP session in a Heroes game was with H6, actually. And there I mostly play duels, because palying entire maps tend to last too long (and if people keep leaving it's no great fun either). At least duels are short and exciting, especially with Dynasty Bonuses enabled  . I don't know how much MP sessions are being played in every heroes game, but H6 at least isn't dead. On a good day you'll still find people there, mostly for duels.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 25, 2015 06:29 PM |
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Marzhin said:
You know, Heroes was never multiplayer oriented. Surveys and studies conducted after H5 and H6 reveal that the large majority of Heroes players (and we're talking about more than 80% here) actually only play campaigns and scenario maps, and never even clicked on the MP button.
But I think is rather a matter of period. Nowadays I see around that people prefer to share this playing time, it is easy and Internet is everywhere. In 2000 (heroes II and III) I remember it was hard I recall, that filthy France Telecom took us 40 francs for HOUR spent online) so bragging about MP was for fortunate people only.
Then a game can be both oriented, MP and SP, with same skills logic.
Then what the survey says about the most online played game, starcraft? 
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Era II mods and utilities
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted July 25, 2015 06:35 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Then what the survey says about the most online played game, starcraft?
That it's real-time, fast-paced, and that games are over in 30 minutes?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 25, 2015 06:37 PM |
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Marzhin
Shaper of Lore
Designer & Writer, Ubisoft
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posted July 25, 2015 06:44 PM |
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Salamandre said:
And this doesn't ring a bell to you, proposing a duel feature?
(or it is, as in H5?)
Duels are still part of H7, and the presence of sim turns, sorely missed in H6, should also help MP 
But I don't think everything should be designed with only MP in mind. After all, that's why so many things were changed in H6, to make the game faster-paced and more competitive (hence the area of control, the Dynasty bonuses, the culling of "non-essential" buildings and the reduction of resources), and we know how that turned out.
Now just to make things 100% clear I'm only sharing my personal opinion and tastes here. I'm not the game's designer, my role is "only" to make maps and tell stories
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 25, 2015 06:48 PM |
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Marzhin said:
But I don't think everything should be designed with only MP in mind. After all, that's why so many things were changed in H6, to make the game faster-paced and more competitive (hence the area of control, the Dynasty bonuses, the culling of "non-essential" buildings and the reduction of resources), and we know how that turned out.
More competitive =/= oversimplification of (strategic) features.
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted July 25, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Edited by malax83 at 19:19, 25 Jul 2015.
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I sorry, i should defenitly ask the question as Storm-giant resume it so well. We ( maybe not the majority) prefer an ability for diplomacy skill.
No MOAR SURVEY for H3 or H4 DIPLOMACY ? If i write this Survey, due to my poor shakespear langage, i could give the majority to H3 supporter...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 25, 2015 07:20 PM |
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Marzhin said:
But I don't think everything should be designed with only MP in mind. After all, that's why so many things were changed in H6, to make the game faster-paced and more competitive (hence the area of control, the Dynasty bonuses, the culling of "non-essential" buildings and the reduction of resources), and we know how that turned out.
I don't see how any of those things helped (or could have helped) in multiplayer. Dynasty bonuses required extreme single player grinding and were unbalanced. Reduction of resources.. gave you less fights on week 1? Less to think about when building a town maybe? Only area of control helped somewhat by eliminating the need to run around flagging stuff but mostly mass recruiting everything from your main town.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted July 25, 2015 07:21 PM |
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Salamandre said:
The fact is: diplomacy was always banned from MP because of potential gruesome luck based unbalance. So either create option: ban from MP or give it another form, with penalties confronting bonuses, so it can be for once discussed.
Wow, MP sounds pretty dumb.
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 25, 2015 07:44 PM |
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That's why I usually play single player, you can't enjoy the off chance that something may advantage you because of luck, or the banning of spells and towns, that also irks me...
I think though that an option to do these things in game could be helpful to build a MP community, even if I don't like that...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 25, 2015 07:48 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Wow, MP sounds pretty dumb.
Look, I won't comment on that, cuz I am myself against all rules and prefer to have fun when playing (fun = surprise).
But a lot of people play MP with the obsession of climbing ranks, games last about 6-7 hours so I can understand one's frustration to find opponent joined 400 level 7 tiers because was lucky with diplo settings. If you read both H3 and H5 forums, you will spent an afternoon browsing the list of "what is banned and not to do in game".
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Era II mods and utilities
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted July 25, 2015 07:54 PM |
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Resource reduction was based on a faulty reasoning (Starcraft is the opposite of Heroes, let alone mention the it's much easier for map makers...), I get that. But the Dinasty bonuses were meant for Multiplayer? I call it bollocks
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 25, 2015 07:55 PM |
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Marzhin said:
Surveys and studies[...] never even clicked on the MP button.
Interesting, those surveys could be interpreted in two very different ways. Successful companies run surveys like this to find which area to improve, so it clearly designs multi-player button as the next 1 billion $$ goal.
Instead, I have the feeling that you guys interpret it as: why bother with, none clicks on.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 25, 2015 08:04 PM |
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I'll be honest here though, this disaster of a skill system is perfect for multiplayer matches, you completely remove the chances of getting useless skill for the hero you're using and instead you choose the skills you need...
Indeed in HVI I had a fixed skill scheme for my heroes...
And that's probably why they did that, by removing mage guilds you also delete the chance to get a spell you don't like and instead take something like implosion.
As I understand it randomness is enemy to multiplayer which saddens me...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted July 25, 2015 08:12 PM |
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Neraus said:
As I understand it randomness is enemy to multiplayer which saddens me...
That is also faulty logic. As far as i'm concerned, Heroes 3 did a fantastic job with its chance-based mechanics like luck and morale: They were a big deal and you could influence them But they weren't OP. Games like SC and such are all about balance and two identically strong sides. Heroes is about planning and consideration and chance is a big part of that hence why a heroes game without it would hardly be one. It's too integral to the kind of challenge heroes is supposed to provide.
TL;DR: Chance is important to heroes, MP or not.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 25, 2015 08:17 PM |
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Neraus said:
As I understand it randomness is enemy to multiplayer which saddens me...
Randomness is part of the essence of the series and there's that. Again, if you can't deal with the factor (which still is somehow oriented), you can't deal with the game. IMO
To me this system only needs to be explored more, just how much can you "influence" the dice roll by your actions. One has to deal with bad luck too, and find viable alternatives. I do not see any excitement on having my perfect hero anytime I want, where is the challenge, the unpredictability, the adrenaline and profound joy you can get, be it by the shine of luck during hero development, or the brilliant strategy you can come up with to counter some inconvenience.
I do not share the same feeling if all I have to do is to know everything perfectly and just apply, without even thinking after a while. The game is not only about the last fight.
Also, I recall some hotseats where lots of fun was due to some "injustices". 
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted July 25, 2015 08:22 PM |
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Galaad said:
Also, I recall some hotseats where lots of fun was due to some "injustices".
This is exactly what I'm talking about, that stack that joined you, that wasted skill, that bad decision makes a match far more interesting than rigorous calculated schemes that exclude certain mechanics.
At least in my opinion...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted July 25, 2015 08:23 PM |
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But you could also witness some crazy turnarounds, and that is pure epicness!
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted July 25, 2015 08:50 PM |
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Edited by jhb at 20:57, 25 Jul 2015.
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I think PROJ talked about that in the post about dispel.
If I understood right, his main point was that the more you add of output randomness, the more diminished will be the relevance of player's actions for the results obtained.
Input randomness is never a problem, because it allows you to react/plan. But output randomness, you just take it in the face and accept it.
In my opinion, I like both types, but while we can use and abuse of input randomness without worrying much, we need to be more careful with the output one, otherwise the game can potentially be turned into a lottery. I think the key here is to find the sweet spot (or the sweet interval).
I also think it's important for heroes, but I must admit I mostly play single with some casual MP. I can understand that this can be a concern for people who play more competitively.
Some people could argument "oh, but in the end, it averages out". Well, in most of cases, it will, but there will be outlier cases too.
TL;DR: Randomness is awesome, excess of output randomness can be bad.
Marzhin said:
Duels are still part of H7, and the presence of sim turns, sorely missed in H6, should also help MP
Marzhin, the bringer of good news!
/nerdgasm
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
