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| Thread: ~ Heroes VII - Shadow Council ~ |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 11, 2015 07:15 PM |
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You won't find this post, as it has been deleted as well. The amount of censorship at the dev blog is getting worrisome.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 11, 2015 07:36 PM |
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Have they removed criticism that's on topic? If not, i can't agree to this being censorship, just moderation (which people wanted). The whole thing seems a bit silly from ubi's part but don't call it something it is not.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 11, 2015 07:38 PM |
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According to your logic Kiryu then they should remove every comment which isn't directly on topic. They are not doing that either.
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 11, 2015 07:56 PM |
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What did you expect? If you and your kin (and others) hadnt immaturley spammed the blog into the dark ages im sure devs would have been more forgiving.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 11, 2015 08:51 PM |
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Galaad said:
According to your logic Kiryu then they should remove every comment which isn't directly on topic. They are not doing that either.
that's not what i meant at all. They shouldn't remove everything rhat is off topic, but them doing it is not censorship so it shouldn't be called censorship.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted May 12, 2015 01:13 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 16:00, 12 May 2015.
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Down the dev blog, also known as “Shadow Council”, as many know I am Galaadlehaut, and I have 678825 XP, which corresponds to a level 67 (that’s right, screw you, level 30 cap!).
I’ve been connected since the very beginning, unlocked most achievements and took an active part in commenting articles, in all the votes, but also have been sharing my thoughts and debating with lots of people. I’ve made myself some enemies of course, but I also found a lot of support (would I have such a high level if I didn’t?).
I think it is time for Heroes Community to learn more about this place, which is not what it seems to be. I know a huge majority of fans do not take part in the comment sections for obvious reasons. Some members here also highly advised people not to go down there, some even mentioning health reasons.
 Of course all I say here is my personal opinion and impressions based on my experience and might differ from the truth.
First things first, let me share with you my understanding of how this blog is built.
The XP system
This system is fairly simple, you post your thoughts and people reading you gets a few choices of options. They can upvote if they agree with you. They can reply to your post. They can ignore it. And more recently, they can report it as well as link it (though people were more waiting for an edit/delete post function, requesting it since ages).
The most upvoted posts from each article will reach the top, letting other ones buried by the flood, and the most invested people will go through all the comments, and even actively post and reply, perfectly knowing it will be read by a very low amount of people. These posts (the highest upvoted ones) will represent for the company and the team of developers what is the general feeling of the fan base considering what is being proposed and use it as official fan feedback. Ironically or not, according to this system, I am the highest representative of the community down there, but I rather think anyone who would invest a consequent amount of time can gather a high amount XP, as long as he can make sense and be constructive (at least at times ; getting upvoted is what will give you XP -aside of the achievements- while posting but gaining no upvotes will not). It all depends on the time one is willing to invest himself into the blog, but a lot of posts don’t get upvotes at all, and there are many flaws such as upvote farming.
Upvote farming can take many forms: create polls, bash on some member if said member can be considered as annoying, or even praising string cheese originating from a northern region of Slovakia as I did at a time. Even comments unrelated to the game can get upvote farming.
All in all, this system is far from being perfect, but not completely bad either, while I think its major flaw is the issue I am going to speak about now:
The comment sections
Welcome to the horror. Welcome to the master flood. Welcome to the Shadow Council. Things are a lot more quiet now, since there is no more votes and also, a lot of people left after the skill system reveal and feedback from the devs in response to the criticism of the fan base.
But I’ve been there, as I said I took active part in all the published articles, and I can assure you having a civilized discussion down there is not possible. First, there is the character limit, but the flooding makes anything impossible. If someone disagrees, he can just post on top of it, and another one will post on top etc, each newer post burying the precedent one. This is where upvotes can save posts, and this is also why a lot of upvoted posts are short and direct ones, without much argumentation, since a fast read is mandatory for visibility.
Of course we can blame SC members for not reading, for spamming, for anything, but IMHO it is like asking a martial artist to fight fifty people at once: surrealism.
I can share from my experience the votes, and anyone who took active part can confirm how toxic these process were, especially when the devs themselves published statements such as “convince your fellow councilors to change their minds, by any means you deem necessary”. And this mindset is now printed into every councilors mind, and most keep trying to influence the best they can, some with good intentions, others with bad intentions, it is part human nature to do so. I’ve tried to campaign in order to close the comment sections, as I am firmly convinced it is doing nothing good, nothing good to the game, nothing good to the community, nothing good to the developers, even nothing good to the company (fire Ubi: +60 upvotes in the pre-order article).
The solution I've been trying to fight for? Close comment section, open community section and create dedicated forum for SC members to post and discuss their opinions.
The voting process
I’ve already approached the subject in what I think of the comment sections, but I think a lot more can be said about the votes.
There has been several votes, and a few considered as important since these had a direct impact in which factions would be part of vanilla, and even the lineups.
Officially, the votes are considered to have the highest impact the fan base can have on the game.
The first vote was Sylvan vs Fortress. In other words, an all-time favorite faction for many of the fans vs a one-time appearance faction which could have been done a lot better according to many people’s opinions. Sylvan won easy, no surprise here, for the greater grief of all Fortress supporters (which generated hate towards the elves, of course).
The second faction vote was Dungeon vs Inferno. This one allegedly much more fair, since both factions are popular, and Dungeon won by a few margin. No drama here, probably the only vote which was more or less peaceful, and not so surprisingly IMO.
Of course, if the game had a better budget, we could have had all the factions, but this is obviously out of the question.
The lineup votes, these were catastrophic, and I will try to explain why.
You take three iconic or more or less iconic creatures of a faction, and tear them apart. Blade dancer (H5) vs Phoenix (H1/H2/H4) vs Unicorn (H1/H2/H3/H4/H5) and Faceless (H6) vs Medusa (H3/H4) vs Manticore (H3/H6). Basically, all cherished creatures by consequent parts of the fan base. And you ask people to fight for their choice, you ask people to influence on others. 
I can not see this as something else than just building hype, than marketing, at the detriment of awesome lineups which would have satisfied a huge majority if all these creatures have had been part of said lineups.
I can tell you, if people think the Necro or skill system flaming were toxic, it was nowhere close to the level of toxicity the lineup votes had. Everybody going berserk down there, even at HC things were heated, but at SC it was living hell. Even if you check the comment sections, you should grasp what I mean, even considering tons of comments has already been deleted by recent moderator Moshi "1984".
No, tearing apart such creatures to my understand can only be explained either by a total lack of understanding from the developers, either by a forced marketing process in order to build hype around the game and encourage better sales. Personally I think it is the latter. Which is a shame, because what would encourage better sales than lineups which would satisfy the larger possible amount of gamers?
The gameplay decisions
Unarguably the most important matter to the community. While we can all argue this and that about lore and aesthetics, I consider the Heroes fan base to be pretty solid on that aspect. And on that aspect we could not vote.
Even random, was a spam demand, and @Oakwarrior I always found it suspicious that, sorry but, we were told to ask.
Unfortunately, how can the random system be properly implemented within a skill system design philosophy which is built against it, considering it as a constrain, when most players consider it as an undeniable charm and strategic aspect of the game? I’ve been reading a lot of constructive comments from many HC members on the matter, and none could convince me of a successful implementation of the random. I would be thrilled to be proved wrong, this actually would make me revert to my original decision as to buy the game and believe again in Heroes 7.
I just have this question if someone from the dev team can answer me, how can the community’s wishes and opinions be listened and taken into consideration when the whole gameplay philosophy (aka the most important aspect) was decided by the devs and the devs alone?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted May 12, 2015 02:12 PM |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2015 03:05 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:06, 12 May 2015.
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I think that the main problem is actually the fanbase around the Shadow Council. Hotheaded, restless members, part of the new generation, who don't have any knowledge or standards and are oblivious of the history and legacy of the series. Constructive criticism and attempts at argumentation either end up under the tsunami of spam and trash talk, or they quickly degenerate into ego battles and flame wars, and the environment allows it.
The thing is that some of the members from there have crept their way here on the HC boards, bringing their vocal personalities with them which causes friction. Some of them don't even have the basic understanding of what an argument even is, throwing fallacies like straw men, red herrings, not to mention ad hominems. However, among the more knowledgeable and eloquent members, they are very easy to spot, and not before long (I hope) they will be weeded out.
I don't know when the bile and vitriol will stop, if ever. All I know is that I've stopped posting there. I still follow the news and read the top comments occasionally, other than that the place is a cesspit undeserving of my attention.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 12, 2015 03:18 PM |
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Stevie said:
The thing is that some of the members from there have crept their way here on the HC boards, bringing their vocal personalities with them which causes friction. Some of them don't even have the basic understanding of what an argument even is, throwing fallacies like straw men, red herrings, not to mention ad hominems. However, among the more knowledgeable and eloquent members, they are very easy to spot, and not before long (I hope) they will be weeded out.
Thats one highly offensive and disrespectful comment. You sure do have high thoughts about yourself.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 12, 2015 03:36 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Thats one highly offensive and disrespectful comment. You sure do have high thoughts about yourself.
well it may be offensive and disrespectful, but to be fair it's also a fact lol
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted May 12, 2015 03:53 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Thats one highly offensive and disrespectful comment.
Only if it concerns you.
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properkheldar
Famous Hero
Keeper of books
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posted May 12, 2015 04:04 PM |
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Yes because, before SC there were no vocal personalities at HC that caused friction. Sure. (lol)
I thought this was a forum for heroes fans, old or new. Not an elite club for "true" fans with "indistputable" reasoning, or an borg collective.
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"Man spends his life in reasoning on the past, in complaining of the present, in fearing future."
- Antoine Rivarol
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted May 12, 2015 04:38 PM |
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properkheldar said:
Yes because, before SC there were no vocal personalities at HC that caused friction. Sure. (lol)
exactly, it takes one to know one as they say lol
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 12, 2015 04:56 PM |
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The problem was never the fans (bad apples on both "sides" though) but that ubi never had any intention of using the council how they promised. It was supposed (advertised) to be for open development and free communication between developer and players. It was a tool to keep people silent through small-time votes too early in development to have meaningful change and empty promises. They've been called out on it hard, but some people are just too much into the hype to notice Ubisoft manipulating them. 'Tis a shame, since Ubi should not get away with this Bullsnow.
blame ubi, not each other. They lied from the start and still are, not about the game but about the council. Not certain if even Limbic were aware.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted May 12, 2015 05:55 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
The problem was never the fans (bad apples on both "sides" though) but that ubi never had any intention of using the council how they promised. It was supposed (advertised) to be for open development and free communication between developer and players. It was a tool to keep people silent through small-time votes too early in development to have meaningful change and empty promises. They've been called out on it hard, but some people are just too much into the hype to notice Ubisoft manipulating them. 'Tis a shame, since Ubi should not get away with this Bullsnow.
blame ubi, not each other. They lied from the start and still are, not about the game but about the council. Not certain if even Limbic were aware.
Open development and free communication is always a load of crap. Fans are fickle and have no sense of game design or the logistics of game development. It's always a disaster to try to listen to them too much. It's an impossible goal to achieve. I actually understand completely how things have turned out.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2015 06:00 PM |
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Indeed Ubi should not bother with votes. Make the game, and if it's good people will buy, if not, they will not. End of story.
Nintendo didn't put up votes, when they created Super Mario Bros. 3. It should be same mentality with heroes. As far as "true fans" are concerned, old universe is gone. Accept already. H2 or H3 isn't "tr00 HoMM". Not anymore than ubi games are. Fans of Ubi titles are as much true fans of Homm than the old fans are. I would argue even more, since they are fans of Ashan, and this game is Ashan.
Fanbases rotate out eventualy. With series this old as HoMM it isn't any surprise that old fans hate the new stuff. Asking fans what they want, is deliberatly opening dor to drama and hatered towards each other. People, including myself, have no idea how to make a game good, and each one has his/her own priorities. Making votes for gameplay stuff would be a disaster.
Don't belive me? Then are you happy with all vote's results? Atleast if Sylvan gets Deer instead of Unicorn, it does not have any meaningfull impact on gameplay experience. Voting is only about falvour of the game. But I guess even this is too much. Afterall, it goes witouth saying, and it is manifesting in this forums aswell: People are like rabid dogs, offer them a finger, and they'll bite off your arm.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted May 12, 2015 06:01 PM |
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I feel there is not one mod, but there is someone else in there, probably hired by Ubi.
Either that or the only mod around there has one big salary to clean these comments.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted May 12, 2015 06:05 PM |
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Galaad's post is a good one  , I do the same as Stevie when it comes to the SC and Kiryu133 hit the nail on the head.
You guys make posting easy for me on this issue  .
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted May 12, 2015 06:12 PM |
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PROJ said:
Open development and free communication is always a load of crap. Fans are fickle and have no sense of game design or the logistics of game development. It's always a disaster to try to listen to them too much. It's an impossible goal to achieve. I actually understand completely how things have turned out.
if you have no intention of taking your fans' critisism seriously, don't say you'll take your fans' critisism seriously! Don't apologize for or defend Ubisoft. They made this mess themselves and they're using people too blinded by hype to wave it away. Don't let them.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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PROJ
Known Hero
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posted May 12, 2015 06:31 PM |
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They might have had the intention of doing it seriously until they realized what it entailed. Not every act is one of maliciousness.
Remember that game development (and community management), even professionally, is still mostly swinging in the dark. There really is not a set of guidelines or a science to it at all.
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