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| Thread: Black Knight or Dullahan ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 28, 2014 09:55 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 09:56, 28 Nov 2014.
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Dave_Jame said:
@ Protolisk.
The depiction of Dullahan is just a black rider whitout a head. A myth so overused in popular culture I personaly can't see it in anything that takes it self atleast a bit serious. It's like the Frankenstain's monster. Used in so many show's I dare to describe it as clishe.
Unlike vampires, who in Ashan are Liches that ages backwards, making them fresh and original.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 09:56 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:08, 28 Nov 2014.
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Voted Dullahan, because the Death Knight is boring as hell (a black-clothed guy on a horse), and if it follows it mythical roots it will have an awesome ability (kill at least one of any unit it attacks if it moved to get there).
Dave_Jame said:
My question here is, for all of you, is the debate about the looks, the imagery? Or about the phrasing and naming?
The depiction of Dullahan is just a black rider whitout a head.
And a whip made of a human spine, that is a unique feature.
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A myth so overused in popular culture I personaly can't see it in anything that takes it self atleast a bit serious.
Try werewolves, vampires, zombies, mummies, etc. All of these have seen far more use than headless horsemen.
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It's like the Frankenstain's monster. Used in so many show's I dare to describe it as clishe.
Still less used than vampires.
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jeremiahemo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 10:17 AM |
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^ agreed. Plus Dullahan's name is far more unique.
Dread Knights.. how many knights do we have?
Haven's Knights
Emerald Knights
Death Knights
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted November 28, 2014 10:52 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Unlike vampires, who in Ashan are Liches that ages backwards, making them fresh and original.
As much as I like your sarcasm Avirosb, you can't say, that such an approach on these two units, as stupid as the premise may sound, is not an unusual one in its own way. It was an attempt to make these two "overused" units different from other interpretations. ;-)
MattII said:
Voted Dullahan, because the Death Knight is boring as hell (a black-clothed guy on a horse), and if it follows it mythical roots it will have an awesome ability (kill at least one of any unit it attacks if it moved to get there).
And a whip made of a human spine, that is a unique feature.
Try werewolves, vampires, zombies, mummies, etc. All of these have seen far more use than headless horsemen.
Still less used than vampires.
I plan to address most of these things later in a post in which I plan to approache the necro line-up similary I did to the Stronghold one. As for some of the key words, I could use the phrasing similar to some of the arguments here.
Spine whip = Just another thing in his hand (be it lance, sword, axe) Just made out of bone, and you can make those out of bone aswell
Warewolf + Vampire + Mumies > Dullahan since he is, as I qoute you, "a black-clothed guy on a horse" just whitout a head what is next? 3 legged unicorn for Necro?
Now for some real arguments. Oh wait there are none. This all is just about personal preferences, both are guys on a horse whit something in one hand (axe, whip, sword, lance, mace) and something else in the other one (shield, head). All abilities can be applied to both version, so again what is this discussion about. The name or the accesories?
jeremiahemo said:
^ agreed. Plus Dullahan's name is far more unique.
Dread Knights.. how many knights do we have?
Haven's Knights
Emerald Knights
Death Knights
Actualy there was never a unit called "Knight" in Haven's armies, Only a Hero class was called a knight.
And the Emerald knight did not make it into the game (Much to your liking, I know how much you love the Bladedancers ;-) )
So the Black/Dread knight is the only unit that ever used the term Knight in its name. I might be wrong here so if I am please correct me :-) (Note: Vampire knights in H6 were named such way to create a connection between the Vampires and Death knights of H5 + they are still in the necro line-up)
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 12:48 PM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 12:51, 28 Nov 2014.
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Dave_Jame said:
Now for some real arguments. Oh wait there are none. This all is just about personal preferences, both are guys on a horse. Whit something in one hand (Axe, whip, sword, lance, mace) and something else in the other one (Shield head) All abilitie can be applied to both version So again what is this discussion about. The name or the accesories?
Pretty much.
Protolisk said:
I seriously don't see what is so special with the Dread Knight. I mean, he isn't bad, but he is literally Dullahan with different name and head on his shoulders.
I am fine with both, they are both cool, just don't think that Dread Knight is much better than Dullahan.
I voted for Dullahan, because I really dislike the naming convention of "Adjective Noun" that Dread/Black Knight gives off, as well as the old Sword Bearer, and Magic Bird, and Blazing Glory... and so forth. Dullahan is a pretty good replacement for the name, and is more interesting that what usually is a re-skin of the Horse riding Human flavor of the year. I feel the same way towards Dullahan as I do Landskencht and Simurgh: it's not a totally bland name.
Like Avirosb said, they honestly could be upgrades of one another. I wouldn't mind this. Even if the Dread/Black (which ever) is the upgrade of the Dullahan, I'd be okay.
I said it already, I don't have the problem with Dullahan at all, he may very well be the elite or champion of Necropolis, I just don't see why he is so different from Dread Knight apart from not having a head and being a mythological character. Is that the reason that people are impressed with him so much?
On the other hand it seems that you dislike those "Black/Dread/Death Knights", which is ok, but then I don't see the point in copying my text and replacing those words as you don't actually mean the same thing as I do, I like both and you obviously don't.
Then in your next post you are talking about how people want more mythological creatures but then they are choosing Black Knight instead of Dullahan, and how that is hypocritical. Are you sure that same people wants these stuff? Or you know, they maybe even have opinion on what they like and what they don't, and won't blindly just take everything that someone suggests? There maybe are people that like majority of mythological creatures but would prefer some non-mythological creatures.
And I am not sure what to say about you linking those three pictures of Necropolis Hero, Black Knight and Dread Knight and asking why is one stronger than another and how they are just dudes on Horses. You could very well make that argument for like over half of the units in this game, because there isn't much of a difference between original and upgraded units, some of them have a bit more armor, better weapons, some of them just have their color changed. Not sure where are you getting with this at all...
Ok, let me ask you this then. Why would Dullahan be better than Dread Knight in Necropolis army, and what will be so different about him to make him stronger than any other riding unit? Please, don't just tell me that it would be his head in his hands.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 01:25 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Like Avirosb said, they honestly could be upgrades of one another. I wouldn't mind this. Even if the Dread/Black (which ever) is the upgrade of the Dullahan, I'd be okay.
So ... you upgrade Dullaham by taking his head from his hands and puting it onto his shoulders? is that it?
or the other way around ... you have black knight and you "upgrade" him by choping his head off ? (which would be actualy downgrade)
Im prety sure Avirosb was making a joke here .... you know one of them has an upgrade ... namely a head
Again how would you justfy having whole army of headless horsemen ... have normal black/deread knights all lost their head somehow?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 28, 2014 01:54 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 13:55, 28 Nov 2014.
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The headless version would just the cosmetic.
Could have a spectral head, it would technically still be headless.
Dullahan could be written to mean something different than it does originally.
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Kurush
Known Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 02:07 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I said it already, I don't have the problem with Dullahan at all, he may very well be the elite or champion of Necropolis, I just don't see why he is so different from Dread Knight apart from not having a head and being a mythological character. Is that the reason that people are impressed with him so much?
Nah, it's cause he's Irish. Celtic is always better.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted November 28, 2014 02:51 PM |
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creepy eyes make for a much creepier creature than lack of head, honestly. or flat, emotionless helmet. h3, once again, is a great example of the latter with a flat and empty helmet completely devoid of feeling. just so effective 
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Kurush
Known Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 03:14 PM |
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Well, if the Dullahan will be holding his head in his hands, it probably won't have a helmet, so you can make it very creepy. The PG16 rating helps.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 04:34 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I said it already, I don't have the problem with Dullahan at all, he may very well be the elite or champion of Necropolis, I just don't see why he is so different from Dread Knight apart from not having a head and being a mythological character. Is that the reason that people are impressed with him so much?
On the other hand it seems that you dislike those "Black/Dread/Death Knights", which is ok, but then I don't see the point in copying my text and replacing those words as you don't actually mean the same thing as I do, I like both and you obviously don't.
I'm not so much impressed by the Dullahan as I am disinterested by the Adjective Knights. I get that it came out in H3, and that H3 is a cult game. I know, it was my first game. It's the looking glass that I view almost everything in H4/5/6 and now H7 through. However, I am so disinterested by a dead guy on a horse over anything else (I even liked the Lamasu better than that guy) because the only thing that makes it different from a Cavalier is that it is dead. When a faction that has one of the most varied, awesome factions filled with generally interesting ideas, they decide to take a unit from another faction, which is usually the most bland, kill him and paint his armor, and call it a day. I went on my tirade about the Black/Death/Dread knight artwork because they are, again, just dudes on horses. Dead dudes on horses.
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Then in your next post you are talking about how people want more mythological creatures but then they are choosing Black Knight instead of Dullahan, and how that is hypocritical. Are you sure that same people wants these stuff? Or you know, they maybe even have opinion on what they like and what they don't, and won't blindly just take everything that someone suggests? There maybe are people that like majority of mythological creatures but would prefer some non-mythological creatures.
I know it's not the exact same people, but with that thread having the votes being 80% in favor of myth units, 20% in favor of new Ubisoft units, and although I understand this isn't a new Ubisoft unit, it's definitely appalling that there is such a sudden switch back to liking what was basically a unit that had very little myth background against one that is nearly exactly the same except more mythological background and his head in his hand, yet that vote produces 79% in favor of the NWC "made up" unit against 21% for the mythological background. This is why I call it hypocritical: this forum tends to have people championing for the idea of "Bring back the mythology!" but once a suggestion arises that allows for mythology to not only come back, but be more than past games, and people vote in the exact opposite direction. You can't say you believe one thing and do something that isn't in line with what you said without being hypocritical. I know not every one is, because there are 20% that must at least stay on both sides, but leaves 60% of people, give or take a few people who didn't vote in both, that are voting in completely the opposite of the original direction.
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And I am not sure what to say about you linking those three pictures of Necropolis Hero, Black Knight and Dread Knight and asking why is one stronger than another and how they are just dudes on Horses. You could very well make that argument for like over half of the units in this game, because there isn't much of a difference between original and upgraded units, some of them have a bit more armor, better weapons, some of them just have their color changed. Not sure where are you getting with this at all...
The real point wasn't that I was saying there should be a strength difference between the Dread and Black Knights; they are upgrades of each other, I don't necessarily mind them. It's the fact that they are nearly identical with their hero unit. Why is a particular Adjective Knight (the Death Knight might hero) stonier than Dread/Black knights (either one)? They are ALL just guys on horses with black armor. The hero doesn't even have a black horse! In these games, I am seeing countless dudes on horses that it is annoying. I see enough people on horses to last me a life time. And what does the faction what is filled with creatures with un-life have to offer? Another guy on a horse.
By the way, does he look particularly dead to you? Does either of these guys look dead? At most, they have red eyes, but they don't really look dead or monstrous. They just look like... guys on horses. I get that their black armor makes them look a little evil, but are they dead? Because that's the primary reason for being in Necropolis anyways. I've been seeing people questioning the Namtarus for not being truly dead (because they are "made" that way, not killed and risen) while you have these guys parading around with absolutely no knowledge that they were dead in the first place.
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Ok, let me ask you this then. Why would Dullahan be better than Dread Knight in Necropolis army, and what will be so different about him to make him stronger than any other riding unit? Please, don't just tell me that it would be his head in his hands.
Unfortunately, this IS exactly why I like the Dullahan better, visually. Is the Dread/Black Knight truly dead? The H3 ones didn't even have the courtesy to kill their horses, so how can I trust them being dead themselves? At least the H5 version did. But then again, he was Death Knight by then. It's really hard to show a rotting corpse, or a mummy, when it's covered in armor. You couldn't really tell if he is dead or not under there. I expect necromancy to be a little more creative than just "Look, guys, we killed someone. What sould he do with him?" "Oh, just slap him back on his horse, looking the same. Yeah, he looks good. Can't even tell I just crushed his insides, but yeah, he'll do fine". Although the enemy will see a armored humanoid on a horse charging back at them, they can't really tell he's dead, at least by this picture.
But a guy whose head is in his hands, yet still charging at you? Even a guy who just doesn't have a head, and yet is still charging at you? Yeah, that guy is dead. It's down right disturbing to see a man carry his head, dripping with blood out the neck hole, chop off his enemies' heads without actually needing to use his own severed eyeballs are directional guides, as they have been rolled back into their skull far too long to have any visual benefit. It adds disturbing imagery over what would just be yet another normal guy on a horse. And with the versions where he just doesn't have a head? That removes the identity of the killed person. It's really hard to tell people from one another when they don't have a face. Instead, you are just greeted with a neck hole that has long since overflowed with dried, crusted blood while you can't even look what may have been your old friend in the eyes before it slaughters you without remorse. That reduces the morale of the living. That makes your enemies run scared with their tails between their legs. And that, my friend, is why I like the Dullahan over the Black/Dread Knight
The funny thing about all of this (to me) is that on that thread I posted, you will see me defending new units. I actually do like original units. But, I also do like mythological units. If you had, say, a large lizard, with a long neck, vast wings, and the ability to breathe fire, and then call it a Flame-spewing Scale Beast... I'm going to want to smack whoever came up with that decision. Because there is already a perfectly good name to fit there: a Dragon.
So, again, when you have a dead man riding a horse, why call him a Dread Knight, when you already have a perfectly viable dead guy on a horse: The Dullahan.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 28, 2014 04:43 PM |
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Why is there no option for Ankou?  I know it's the 100th time I say this but Ankou is the best option: it's a reaper+death knight and it's mythological! So my vote goes for Ankou (though I can't vote him  )
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 28, 2014 04:44 PM |
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Why's that horse have two heads?
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 28, 2014 04:45 PM |
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Because it's a cart with two horses
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 28, 2014 04:46 PM |
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The perspective seems a bit odd to me but okay.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 05:23 PM |
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I never heard of Ankou (sorry ). It does look interasting but a bit... over-the-top for my taste. Why not ragular Reaper then? he dosen't need horses - he can teleport... because he's reaper and why not. It's more logical than vampire teleport, plus Devil in H3 had scyte and teleported, and i always felft he was odd and that it would be cool if reaper would be like that.
Edit: now that i think about it - it would be awsome if Necro heroes would look like that Antoku guy...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 06:35 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 18:41, 28 Nov 2014.
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David_Jame said:
Spine whip = Just another thing in his hand (be it lance, sword, axe) Just made out of bone, and you can make those out of bone aswell
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Warewolf + Vampire + Mumies > Dullahan since he is, as I qoute you, "a black-clothed guy on a horse" just whitout a head what is next?
And some great abilities. Also, those other creatures are still overused, especially vampires (Twilight anyone? That's the lengths you have to go to to make vampires unique these days), and the others aren't far behind. Also, a head of lack of is a visual difference.
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3 legged unicorn for Necro?
Blessed Vampire for Haven.
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All abilities can be applied to both version, so again what is this discussion about.
I guess you want exactly one dragon in the whole game then? Also, the fact is, the Dullahan has those abilities as natural (in the sense that they're culturally associated with him), the Death Knight is basically a boringly-named conglomerate of whatever the designers throw at it.
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Actualy there was never a unit called "Knight" in Haven's armies, Only a Hero class was called a knight.
And in H1/2 the whole Faction was called 'Knight'. Anyway, the name is different
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And the Emerald knight did not make it into the game
It didn't make it into the lineup, it's inclusion in the game is still up in the air.
Zombi_Wizzard said:
I never heard of Ankou (sorry).
You don't read enough Gunnerkrigg Court.
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It does look interasting but a bit... over-the-top for my taste. Why not ragular Reaper then? he dosen't need horses - he can teleport...
Ankou can do all of that too (the cart is optional). As for who he is, he basically is the reaper in Breton (and by extension Cornish and Norman-French) myth. Temporary actually, since he's the last dead person each year, and holds the position for a year, which raises some interesting ideas for abilities.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 28, 2014 06:37 PM |
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My primary reason to vote against the Dullahan is because to me it seems 'special' to have a guy riding a horse while holding his own head. I can't imagine all the cavalry in a Necro army to be like that; we're talking possible hundreds of generic, nameless units in a stack in the army, and they all lost their head? I find that hard to believe and would rather see such a guy as a Champion unit or a Hero class.
And by the way, since your entire army consists of all generic, nameless units (even with a stacksize of 1), I am perfectly fine with the naming convention that uses the creature type to designate them, rather than a name; it never bothered me in the slightest. The only special one in the army is the Hero leading it, so that one should have a real name.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 28, 2014 08:14 PM |
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Protolisk said:
But a guy whose head is in his hands, yet still charging at you? Even a guy who just doesn't have a head, and yet is still charging at you? Yeah, that guy is dead. It's down right disturbing to see a man carry his head, dripping with blood out the neck hole, chop off his enemies' heads without actually needing to use his own severed eyeballs are directional guides, as they have been rolled back into their skull far too long to have any visual benefit. It adds disturbing imagery over what would just be yet another normal guy on a horse. And with the versions where he just doesn't have a head? That removes the identity of the killed person. It's really hard to tell people from one another when they don't have a face. Instead, you are just greeted with a neck hole that has long since overflowed with dried, crusted blood while you can't even look what may have been your old friend in the eyes before it slaughters you without remorse. That reduces the morale of the living. That makes your enemies run scared with their tails between their legs. And that, my friend, is why I like the Dullahan over the Black/Dread Knight
So, again, when you have a dead man riding a horse, why call him a Dread Knight, when you already have a perfectly viable dead guy on a horse: The Dullahan.
The reason why I don't think we should have Dullahan is mostly this:
Maurice said:
My primary reason to vote against the Dullahan is because to me it seems 'special' to have a guy riding a horse while holding his own head. I can't imagine all the cavalry in a Necro army to be like that; we're talking possible hundreds of generic, nameless units in a stack in the army, and they all lost their head? I find that hard to believe and would rather see such a guy as a Champion unit or a Hero class.
And by the way, since your entire army consists of all generic, nameless units (even with a stacksize of 1), I am perfectly fine with the naming convention that uses the creature type to designate them, rather than a name; it never bothered me in the slightest. The only special one in the army is the Hero leading it, so that one should have a real name.
Dullahan and Ankou lose all of their uniqueness when you just import them as units of one of the factions(Necropolis in this case). Why would you be able to make thousands of those myth characters? On the other hand the reason why Dread/Black Knight are called like that is because, as you said, they aren't really different from other Knights and Cavalry-like units. They are the Knights being reanimated by Necromancers.
You have to realize that just because unit has been like that in Heroes 3(Black Knight with living horse) doesn't mean that it will be like that in H7. If anything, I would like to see Dread Knight be rotten and horrifying with dead horse in H7 if it ever comes to having him as unit. As Maurice said, why would you have a thousand beheaded Horsemen as your army, what is the point of beheading them? It would look much better if they had a skulls and heads of their victims on chains all over them. Again, I agree with Maurice, Dullahan and Ankou feel more like Bosses or Hero characters than units in Necropolis army.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 28, 2014 08:25 PM |
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Dullahan and Ankou lose all of their uniqueness when you just import them as units of one of the factions(Necropolis in this case). Why would you be able to make thousands of those myth characters?
Like Medusa, minotaur, behemoth, hydra, Cerberus ? And that just to name a few, there are many more "unique" creatures that are recruitable by hundreds. I see you got no problem with that...
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