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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 06:42 PM |
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I'm sorry, if it sounded that way, I didn't mean it in disrespectfull way... It's also not your fault realy, but more on the side of the organizers ... Ubi in this case ... but that's ok. They will reveal information when they will be ready I guess 
I don't speak English much other than in this and few other forums, so I can sometimes be bad at expresing what I want to say. By "not interasted" I actualy ment to say, that perhaps there wasn't realy a great deal of interesting stuff revealed apart from what we all know ... but I know ... when I read it again it sounds bad.
You both did a good work, I know, and you and Stevie have my respect.
I wasn't also focusing on event itself, but I realy am a bit bored about all discussion about development side of things ... but that's me personaly, and I know this stuff is important.
Steyn said:
What got my attention is that in addition to the seemingly standard core and elite shooter, stronghold has two fliers, one even having strike-and-return. Plus the cyclops being a semi-shooter.
Imo this makes stronghold stand out a little, as the rest of the factions are rather flier poor. Only necropolis tops stronghold with as many as 4! fliers (one being champion and therefore optional).
Some people seem to think the stronghold line-up encourages turtling. I think that both turtling and rushing are viable options. Sending your wyverns behind the enemy lines forces them to open their flanks to your shooters and with the behemoth's jump attck you can have two of your most powerful stacks at the front.
I would say, Harpy is more or less a shooter ... at least upgraded version. I mean it's used as a shooter. It depends how long can it move. Slow will again work wonders against her. Wyvern and Behemoth are also both large creatures. Sending them forward could perhaps be a good idea to tie up shooters, while keeping yours safe. Dealing with regenerative Wyvern and Behemoth will be a pain.
I would say they have awfull lot of large creatures: Centaur, Wyvern, Basilisk Rider and Behemoth. And if gnoll does not shoot with standard attack, it's hard to turtle with Centaur who takes 4 spaces ...
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 06:46 PM |
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Galaad said:
I am gladly at your disposal to answer questions if I can, but I would ask you to show a little more respect in return.
So, how does the Gnoll work? The wording is ambiguous. Some say its just a flanking ranged attack (I still don't understand how this works, considering flanking is based on position. Must you hit them from the side? The back?) while other say that they shoot whenever a friend melees. One seems pretty boring, the other seems wildly overpowered, unless the Gnoll is actually really weak.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 03, 2015 07:05 PM |
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I am sorry for I didn't pay much attention to the gnolls Protolisk. They seemed like a standard core unit to me.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 03, 2015 07:19 PM |
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I didn't expect to see them return, really. But as beastmen they of course have much relevance in Stronghold. Now that we see three creatures from H3's Fortress in Ashan, I wonder if we can expect some others as well.
Neutral Dragon Fly for instance...
It gets a bit boring that every beast-man is a Wizard's experiment. All the orcs, harpies, centaurs, rakshasa, now gnolls too. I know they have to be implemented in Ashan's lore somehow, but this is getting a bit too much .
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 07:20 PM |
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If they are so standard, then it's probably the "flanking" thing. Oh well.
What I do notice, looking again, is that the Stronghold faction is shying away from "race based", at least as orcs are involved. If anything, it's beastman based now, with 3 definitely beastman units, with only one true Orc, and then the Basilisk with it's goblin and the Cyclops are "orcoid" but not really orcs. Then the Wyvern and Behemoth are just beasts, and the Basilisk is to, which means at best you'd have to split it up into a beast and "orcoid" component. This divvies up to 3 beastmen, 2.5 orcoid, and 2.5 beasts. Huh.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 03, 2015 07:21 PM |
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It is not for nothing I think Stronghold will be the best faction of the game. 
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 03, 2015 07:33 PM |
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H3's Fortress and Dungeon were also creature-only, with or without at least one unit you could consider a beastman. Fortress of course champions in that with Gnolls and Lizardmen. Dungeon had the Harpy.
H3's Stronghold, though, had 3 Orcs, but also Cyclopes, Behemoths, Ogres (which you could consider orcoid) and Rocs. Not really beastmen as here in H7, but still a mix of orcs and beasts.
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Sempai
Known Hero
Ubi is love
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posted April 03, 2015 07:34 PM |
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Protolisk said:
Galaad said:
I am gladly at your disposal to answer questions if I can, but I would ask you to show a little more respect in return.
So, how does the Gnoll work? Must you hit them from the side? The back?) while other say that they shoot whenever a friend melees. One seems pretty boring, the other seems wildly overpowered, unless the Gnoll is actually really weak.
According to the description, gnolls will attack if friend attacks and gnoll has an opportunity to make a shot from the flank. I suppose it doesn't mean that gnoll will attack every creature which attacked by allies.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 03, 2015 07:40 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
H3's Stronghold, though, had 3 Orcs.
2 goblins(one of them rides a wolf) and an orc actually
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 03, 2015 07:43 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Dies_Irae said:
H3's Stronghold, though, had 3 Orcs.
2 goblins(one of them rides a wolf) and an orc actually
I think it would be considered blasphemy if I said that I see little difference here, but you're right. In H5, Goblins were also considered the 'little brothers' (or what was it?) of the 'actual' orcs.
Goblins, orcs...there's even a distinction in LotR.
I stand corrected.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 07:44 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
H3's Fortress and Dungeon were also creature-only, with or without at least one unit you could consider a beastman. Fortress of course champions in that with Gnolls and Lizardmen. Dungeon had the Harpy.
H3's Stronghold, though, had 3 Orcs, but also Cyclopes, Behemoths, Ogres (which you could consider orcoid) and Rocs. Not really beastmen as here in H7, but still a mix of orcs and beasts.
Though true, they didn't really say orcs, ogre, cyclops, or behemoths were really related to orcs. Neither were the now "beastmen", the harpies, lizardmen, gnolls; they just were.
However, in Ashan, Cyclops and Goblins are pretty much stated to be "cousins" of Orcs. And all Beastmen are in some way related due to all being the result of crude science experiments to make up for the runaway orcoid things. The only things that aren't "beastmen" but seem like they are are Naga. That's it. Pretty much everything else is a beastman if they are semi-humanoid yet have animal traits. They aren't "just a gnoll" as much as haven units are "just a human", instead they are explicitly "beastmen"
Yes, I suppose Ogres, even Trolls, goblins are all kind of like orcs, but before Ashan, they weren't "related". They weren't science experiments, they had no common ancestry. They were just kinda there. It's one of the things that made the old universe stand out from Ashan: the lack of explanation for things. This wasn't bad, just, well, it happened.
Ashan tended to be more race based, as both H5 and 6 used a warrior orc, a bigger warrior orc, and a shaman. They were all stated to be orcs. And goblins and cyclopes were known to be relatives to orcs. Now there's no shaman, and there's no big orc. Just one orc. And the goblin is just riding a unit instead of being a full one (heck, in H3, they were both a unit AND a rider.) it shows that they are leaning even further away from "races" even though, typically, Ashan has been "race based" instead of "faction based". I hope this trend continues, though since we already voted for the other factions, there is not much that can do better than Strongholds 1 orc (though I guess Dungeon beats Stronghold if the focus is now Beastman instead of Orc, since it has only 2 dark elves if I remember correctly).
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 03, 2015 07:59 PM |
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Dies_Irae said:
I think it would be considered blasphemy if I said that I see little difference here, but you're right. In H5, Goblins were also considered the 'little brothers' (or what was it?) of the 'actual' orcs.
not blasphemy, just incorrect lol
the orcs in Enroth are mostly orange/grey/green pigmen, whereas the goblins are much more humanlike and are all green IIRC, and the only game that contradicts that is Heroes 3
even the concept art of Heroes 3 has the pigmen orcs, and Heroes 4 retcons/reverts them back into pigmen, so it's kinda weird what they did to them for that one game lol
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted April 03, 2015 08:05 PM |
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Protolisk said:
I hope this trend continues, though since we already voted for the other factions, there is not much that can do better than Strongholds 1 orc
I think that this trend you speak of is illusonary. Beastmen are a race as well and it seems that Stronghold unites "created" races (Orcoids and Beastmen) into one faction. It's just that Stronghold has a variety in this thing, unlike Haven where there's one core race (humans) and one secondary (angels).
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 08:44 PM |
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Well aren't Ashan's goblins the "same" general race as orcs? Similar like German Shepherd and Chihuahua are both dogs. I always pictured them as such (for Ashan games atleast). But I could be wrong ...
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 08:45 PM |
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I really don't understand these strange desires of some fans. You don't want Orcs in the Orcish faction Stronghold. You don't want dark elves in the faction they make in Ashan, Dungeon. You don't want dwarves in the dwarven faction of Fortress. If it was up to these fans the game would be called "the fights in the zoo"
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 08:46 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
Well aren't Ashan's goblins the "same" general race as orcs? Similar like German Shepherd and Chihuahua are both dogs. I always pictured them as such (for Ashan games atleast). But I could be wrong ...
They were created from humans and minor demons, like imps. Whether they can breed with something besides other goblins isn't really known.
Nocturnal said:
I really don't understand this strange desires of some fans. You don't want Orcs in the Orcish faction Stronghold. You don't want dark elves in the faction they make in Ashan, Dungeon. You don't want dwarves in the dwarven faction of Fortress. If it was up to these fans the game would be called "the fights in the zoo"
It's supposed to at to the variety of available units and their abilities, but someone did comment on H7 Stronghold looking like a circus. Personally, I'm rather neutral about it.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted April 03, 2015 09:02 PM |
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verriker said:
Dies_Irae said:
I think it would be considered blasphemy if I said that I see little difference here, but you're right. In H5, Goblins were also considered the 'little brothers' (or what was it?) of the 'actual' orcs.
not blasphemy, just incorrect lol
the orcs in Enroth are mostly orange/grey/green pigmen, whereas the goblins are much more humanlike and are all green IIRC, and the only game that contradicts that is Heroes 3
even the concept art of Heroes 3 has the pigmen orcs, and Heroes 4 retcons/reverts them back into pigmen, so it's kinda weird what they did to them for that one game lol
Now I understand why the Stronghold orcs in HotA are those 'pig-men' as you describe it. It was a change I could not understand until now .
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 09:08 PM |
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Sempai said:
Protolisk said:
Galaad said:
I am gladly at your disposal to answer questions if I can, but I would ask you to show a little more respect in return.
So, how does the Gnoll work? Must you hit them from the side? The back?) while other say that they shoot whenever a friend melees. One seems pretty boring, the other seems wildly overpowered, unless the Gnoll is actually really weak.
According to the description, gnolls will attack if friend attacks and gnoll has an opportunity to make a shot from the flank. I suppose it doesn't mean that gnoll will attack every creature which attacked by allies.
He would shoot the target if an ally unit made an attack within half of the gnolls attack range. That's how it worked in the demo at least.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 09:17 PM |
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Nocturnal said:
I really don't understand these strange desires of some fans. You don't want Orcs in the Orcish faction Stronghold. You don't want dark elves in the faction they make in Ashan, Dungeon. You don't want dwarves in the dwarven faction of Fortress. If it was up to these fans the game would be called "the fights in the zoo"
It's not so much that I don't want orcs in the orcish faction dark elves in the now dark elf faction, dwarves in the dwarf faction, and so on.
In my opinion, the heroes and only a few units should describe the "core race" part of the faction. So, where H5 and 6 had 3 straight Orcs, it was pushing the limits. The problem occurs that they also "needed" a goblin, and a cyclops, and seemed to always include a centaur, so the variety was rather diminished. The only real difference between the H5 and H6 lineups were the flyer. The "core race" had to be implemented, and then most variety was locked down afterwards. Now that 2 slots have been removed from being "core race" (the big orc and the spell orc) there is more creature variety. I still like goblins and orcs, but I don't want a faction that was stagnant. Having these "core race" units made a lot of the factions feel more stagnant. I don't want orcs to leave, I just like other things to be with them.
In H5, Dungeon had a shooty dark elf, a stabby dark elf, a dark elf riding a lizard, and a spell casting dark elf. However, in H6, they actually toned it down to just a shooty and a stabby dark elf. The difference this made was that instead of their ranks only being supplemented by minotaur, hydra, and dragons, they were now supplemented by minotaur, manticore, faceless, tentacle thing, and dragon. More variety.
Haven-esque factions have always been given a pass by most, but I always thought they were boring because they were just filled with humans. My favorite units from those factions tended to be the non-humans, mostly because they stood out, which were the angel and the griffin.
Fortress Dwarves was worse because like Haven, it had a good 5 dwarves, almost exactly like humans: one wimpy, one shooty, one riding something, one with a blade, and a spell casting one. And then there was a GIANT dwarf, which although I liked, made it even more dwarves than humans. It was too much, as it had more "dwarves" than Haven did humans, which seemed to be the only faction with a double standard for unit diversity. Personally, I like dwarves, and I like orcs, and i like dark elves... but I also do like mythical beasts. I'd like em both.
the_green_drag said:
He would shoot the target if an ally unit made an attack within half of the gnolls attack range. That's how it worked in the demo at least.
See, now that is what I'm looking for. Not as over powered as I first thought, since it's only half range, but that's still amazing. Now my only question is how certain units acted with them, such as the Cyclops' sweeping attack. Would each unit attacked by the Cyclops provide the opportunity for the Gnoll to sling knives at them?
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 03, 2015 09:34 PM |
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It wouldn't hit anyone, only applied to normal attacks. The sweep attack and piercing shot were activated abilities and not passives.
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This thread is pages long: 
