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| Thread: Skillwheels: an overview |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 23, 2015 11:20 AM |
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Stevie said:
I have no idea how to read that thing.
You have the factions in columns and the skills in rows. First cell is Haven x Offense, and it reads:
1 1 0
--2--
This means there is 1 Haven hero class that has GM Offense (first number), 1 Haven hero class that has Master Offense (second number), 0 Haven hero classes that has Expert Offense (third number), and the big number "2" means that a total of 2 Haven classes has the Offense skill in their skill wheel.
The confusing part is the colours which seem linked to frequency of a skill in a faction, but then not entirely.
EDIT > Ok, apparantly the red colour goes by row and shows what faction that particular skill is most common in (although Warcries has no red colour, only an orange one, but maybe that's because it's so evenly divided on the factions?). The blue colour obviously marks 0-occurance skills.
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What will happen now?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 23, 2015 11:28 AM |
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted September 23, 2015 10:16 PM |
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The thing is : Magic light is so underrepresented, it's very weird that sylvan have NO feroes goog a casting light spells..
AND i agree with lot of people 6 classes for each factions that play the same way than others heroes from others factions.... What is the point????
I followed heroes 7 from the begining but i don't like how things have turned.
I hope the best on 29th September.... But heroes's franchise's luck is not at his best under UBI command.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 24, 2015 02:35 AM |
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Stevie said:
Restrictions don't create variety.
I just have to expess my disagreement here. Restrictions, in a non-random system, are the base fo variety.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 24, 2015 06:42 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Stevie said:
Restrictions don't create variety.
I just have to expess my disagreement here. Restrictions, in a non-random system, are the base fo variety.
Not always.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2015 06:45 PM |
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 24, 2015 07:49 PM |
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Stevie said:
Variety means possibilities. Restrictions means less possibilities. You do the math.
It is not that simple stevie. Giving to much freedom is in many cases not good when it comes to game.
I'm not a profesional game designer but i do design board games as a hobby from time to time. In my approach I try to have as less luck based randomness as possible, but at the same time to keep the variaty, as I think a game based to much on luck is not fun. For example I hate, and try to avoid, dice roles. Other forms of luck like deck shuffling or draws are tolerable, but most important is to let the player alter or decide his approach to the game. Some of my favorite games are Ygdrassil (FF), Arena(Altar) or Dorn (Altar) as they have little-to-no luck based randomness but huge variaty. The Variaty is created by the fact that each player or chatacter is limited in what he can do by the abilities that he has access to, and thus they must approach variouse situations in different ways.
The starting set of heroes otlines the tool that the player can use, and he himself choose what whishes to focuse on, how to use them.
If this was not the case, and the player was not limited in the abilities he has access to, the games would soon get repetiteve and in the end lack variaty as each player would soon focuse on his personaly prefered path.
H VII gives you 36 more or less diffrent paths that each can be approached in its own way.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 24, 2015 09:08 PM |
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@Dave_Jame
It is not my intention to be rude, but I am not sure how good a parallel between turn based strategy games and board games is, as similar parallel between turn based strategy game and real time strategy game has been already made to a rather bad result. Let's keep TBS alone...
What I had in mind is rather an extreme case. I'm comparing H5 and H7 skill wheels in the following scenario: Let's pretend that it is possible to achieve a very high level hero (99 or less) somehow that enables us to learn all skills in H7. H5 will always have a limited skills, so the level is completely irrelevant.
By approaching the level 99 or less with H7 skill system, the hero will always learn all skills (by level, Witch's huts, Scholars, etc... it doesn't matter how) in two possible orders:
1) the skills are picked always in the same order - through free pick or random pick if the given skill are offered, and
2) the case in which the skills are picked in the different order, through the mechanism of randomness or by some unexpected skills of a Witch's hut and other adventure map objects.
However, both outcomes end in the same dead end. Your are stuck with the given skills. Period. No chance to play a Dark Elf with Light magic or a Knight with Dark Magic.
By approaching the level 99 or less with H5 skill system, the hero will always learn some of the skills in the three possible ways:
1) the hero picks the same skills if given the chance,
2) the hero picks some different skills and some same skills, and
3) the hero picks always different skills.
Thus, with H5 it is possible to go with unusual builds, something that is limited in H7 either cause of lore or/and the game mechanics. The freedom of choice is what gives the variety. But, as I said, this is an extreme case, but who knows what people who mod the game will do with the actual game...
Pics of high level heroes:
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
If the game is good, and the mods take over, then I'm afraid that we are about to reach a serious impasse with the best of the best skill system...
If there are any grammar mistakes and the like, sorry, I'm ill and I can't see a thing that I type...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2015 09:21 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:23, 24 Sep 2015.
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I kind of get what Dave is saying but I don't see how that applies to H7 in particular. There are only 9 skills to pick from and probably even less considering those with a mastery cap. Chances are some of those 9 skills will not be viable whether in general or against specific opponents. That's not enough skill combinations for my taste.
Sure, classes will play differently from each other and probably also different from their other faction class counterparts(offensive might template, defensive magic template etc) but I doubt there will be enough variety WITHIN the same class. Or rather, I expect more. I might have felt differently if each skill's abilities were not the exact same for every hero.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 24, 2015 09:59 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 22:00, 24 Sep 2015.
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Just because there is an incentive (out of necessity) to explore different builds does not mean that there is more variety. There isn't, the combination of skills is already chosen for you.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted September 24, 2015 11:46 PM |
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I reserve my response to tomorrow to create a proper one and I hope it will be a well crafted reaction. Right now it would be a mess.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 12:05 AM |
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 25, 2015 08:56 AM |
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Dave_Jame, I like board games very much and I see a parallel between TBS and boardgames which are always in turn.
You seem to be the only one to share the same thoughts with me on the skill system. Waiting for your elaborate answer.. I agree that if there were no restrictions I would play a faction with the same skills each time like I did in heroes V which creates ANTI-variety. Now I am forced to choose different skills based on classes. On the other hand I agree that there is little variety inside each class but overall there is enough variety on level faction.
I am very pleased and can`t wait to touch the game.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 10:15 AM |
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Actually it is pretty easy. In H5, with the abilities being limited to 3 per turn - while at start more or less EVERYTHING can happen, each pick you make reduces your options - who hasn't been thinking hard about how to go with Destructive Magic, for example?
Yes, there is limitation - but in general terms, not in a specific way.
Now, in 7, it's the other way round. ALL decisions about limitations are made with your hero pick (for you). That's it with limitations, because otherwise there are none, except that there is a limit on total number of levels.
In practise, I also don't think there are many options:
1) You need a hero with a GM in either Offenser or Defense - otherwise you will be screwed if facing one.
2) You will have to make a decision about Magic: with arcane knowledge you need 8 points to get access to T4 spell, which means, you need 1 Master and either another Expert or 2 Novices - if you avoid the T4, you gan go with 2 Experts or 1 Master - it probably makes sense to go for a GM - otherwise 2 Experts look fine because you can use a lot of spells on Expert level.
In any case, the decision what to do with the mage guild is also made IMMEDIATELY. 1 school is clear anyway, for the other a look on your hero should be enough, so the decision you have to make is: "Do I go for the T4 or not" - because for magic you go you MUST, otherwise you would waste the power and mana stats.
And there you go. All limitations are already decided AT START - after that it's mechanical picking. Go random?
And that's the next problem: it's FAKE random, because it ISN'T even random - why? Because it would be silly to have a ton of Novice skills and no ability or only Novice abilities, so heroes must be built in a certain way.
It's plain boring, not to mention counter-intuitive when you think RPG. You can hire these heroes, and it feels like you do a replay of what they already lived through. How can they be on one hand empty pages, young, just starting their career, but on the other already be part of a very specialized class that makes it impossible for them to learn a ton of skills and have a "specialization" at that? Wouldn't all that have to be developed?
And then there is the plain bullsh!t: NO hero in the the darn Holy Empire can learn Earth or Water Magic? WTF? Not to mention that they are physically UNABLE to learn even the easiest Dark Magic spells. Are they kidding or something? No possibility to have "black sheep"? Dark Knights?
How utterly boring!
In one sentence: the system is really, really bad, because it's really, really boring, counter-intuitive - actually outrageously so.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted September 25, 2015 11:13 AM |
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Natalka said:
I agree that if there were no restrictions I would play a faction with the same skills each time like I did in heroes V which creates ANTI-variety. Now I am forced to choose different skills based on classes.
You speak nonsense...
If you decide to chose the same skills in H5, then it is you who is killing the variety in the game and not H5 system as it presents you the other option, the other skill. Thus, it is totally wrong, not to mention ridiculous, to accuse H5 skill system for creating ANTI-variety when it is actually your decision. Lol!
However, it is in fact H7 skill system that dooms us to certain skills. Yes, you have a small variety with free pick or a random choosing of the already given skills, but you cannot go beyond selected skills. It is possible only in H5.
One thing that should never be mixed is a PERSONAL DECISION vs. POSSIBILITY GIVEN BY THE SYSTEM. PERIOD!
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 25, 2015 11:53 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 25 Sep 2015. |
Edited by Natalka at 12:28, 25 Sep 2015.
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No I choose same skills each game because it wins me the game 100% of time. Why bother to choose different skills. I read about H5.5 mod and there laid a very good example about dungeon:
start from racial - you have to use destructive - this forces me to take enlightment, sorcery, destructive. In multiplayer logs is a no brainer.
This leaves me with one skill to choose - luck or defense. Against might defense 100 %.
knights - attack, logs,warmachines, enlightment(defense if unlucky) and you basically choose between dark or light.
A lot of variety again 
necromancers - logs, enlightment, sorcery, dark.
If you are very good and the map allows it - defense, 90% of the time - summoning.
barbarians - attack, logs,warmachines, enlightment(defense if unlucky) and a shatter dark 90% of time.
One time I tried to be creative and got Leadership only to lose to dark magic from Jinxer`s dwarfs.
demon lords - attack, logs,warmachines,dark magic - last skill is either luck or defense depending on matchup.It is basically swarming gate vs defense debate. 80 % of final battles are decided first round when armies swing full blows so defense is a 100% choice. Luck you will get from artifacts.
rangers - attack, defense, logs, light magic - last skill is either enlightment or luck. I take enlgithment 100 % if not Ossir because I am lucky and find luck artifacts anyway that give me 5 luck for end game(bonuses from flag etc.). I prefer nearly double defense stat over 25 % bonus to luck(Elven luck). After all it is luck.
runemage(wtf mage?!) - attack,defense, logs, light magic - last skill is either enlightment or luck. Luck is 90 % of time better because of soldier`s luck.
wizards - sorcery, logs, enlightment - here you can get really creative. But against might classes take Defense for sure!
I have played maybe 500 arena games and there you don`t need warmachines, logistics or stuck with your hero starting skills. There is variety and chance to experiment. But after many games I was picking same skills no matter matchup only with a few differences.
Map games are very boring regarding skills. Every time the build is pre determined and you manually level up the hero without thinking at all. It is not my personal decision but the game forces me to take those skills.
Now let`s look at dungeon might classes in H7.
It seems I will take every time same skills with both Shadowslayers and Tricksters. Dark, warcries, explorer, leadership ..don`t know yet. But at least the game will vary from Offense, Defense. Shadowslayers with shooters buffed from Offense tree are very good creepers and don`t need other skills but Tricksters will rely more on tricks from the racial skill tree - confusion, dead angle, weak spot, GM. All are good for final battle also so don`t be afraid to take them for creeping. That already is more variety than what H5 offered me.
Take the neutral might class - GM explorer + GM machines - that`s a whole different rush warmachine hero which is also viable imo.
Magic classes:
attack orriented magic class(Dark Prophet) will have roughly the same attack as the might class so if you pump up the shooters you will do same dmg and moreover you can back them up with spells. Easiest for creeping imo(especially Darkstorm or if you get him in tavern just to use his minotaur)
the defense orriented class(Shade Weaver)- you will combine perks from racial tree with spells. Already different from the creeping technique by Tricksters.
Sorcerers have very interesting combo with GM prime and GM dark and basically that`s the way you will creep . Fast leveling to GM prime and you can cast two spells a turn. Only one point investment in renewal and basically you can cast and not worry about mana. Noobs will like sinitar for sure. It is arguable if Sinitar or Darkstorm will have easier creeping but I favour Darkstorm for final battle and his cool looking model on map.
Excuse me but I see here 6 different ways to play Dungeon here.
I don`t understand why Dark Prophets don`t have M Fire magic or similar shenanigans. Maybe for balancing purposes.I also think those are limiting and create ANTI-variety. But you can`t have your cake and eat it.
I see big improvement in gameplay from H5 and that`s enough for me. I hope old veterans read that and join me on the fun ride
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 25, 2015 12:22 PM |
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Blame individual skills and abilities, not the system as a whole. There are some stronger and weaker abilities; it is a shame that continues on, rather than balance it out.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 25, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Natalka, your premise is that you need to acquire the Ultimate in H5. That's a choice and choosing it will mean that yes, you are restricted to a subset of skills, leaving only room for 1 or 2 skills to spice it up. But no one says you need to get the Ultimate at all. You blame the game for restricting you there.
Yet, you then revert on that statement with the final section of your statement. You say that you have 6 different classes to play a given faction - but truth be said, if one of those 6 will clearly stand out (for you, or in general), you will only want to play that particular Class. Doing anything else will cut yourself short - but this was exactly what you argued against in the start of your post.
Or, looking at it otherwise: instead of chosing among those 6 Classes, you can choose a base Class and then choose the skills you wish to use while disregarding the min-max option of going for the Ultimate.
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 25, 2015 01:54 PM |
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Edited by Natalka at 13:59, 25 Sep 2015.
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No, Maurice, you understood me wrong. I don`t strive for Ultimate skill in h5. Those skill layouts are simply proven the best and I choose them all the time leaving no variety. If you exclude warmachines and logistics as necessary then you can have variety. H5.5 mod will be good for this with 8 skill slots.
I play full random so if I favour Darkstorm over Sinitar if I get in the tavern Sinitar and some economy prick I will play Sinitar no matter what. I don`t care if some classes are stronger or one may stand out. This is irrelevant in full random play. That`s why I have 6 different ways to play Dungeon.
If you play with choosing hero and one class stands out, one may argue then that one faction stands out and in the end we will play only Ossir vs Havez I think you get the point. Play full random and enjoy the game...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 25, 2015 02:08 PM |
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So, basically, you're saying that because you're restricted, you enjoy the game more?
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