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| Thread: Your opinion about the Tactics skill (HOMM 3) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 07:59 AM |
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Your attempt to make tactics skill appeal more to you would have bad cosequences.
Namely, hit and run being painfully easy to perform. Or hit and die, 4 armageddons sound way better than 1.
Also, in the first part you are ignoring many things.
Both ambush and being on the offensive are part of ingame situations. Having a bigger army makes attacking before opponent can use his or surrender the best option, and tactics makes it so much easier. Also, finding opponents main with just fast creatures on him(precious movement points) makes tactics shine. If you can go forward and have first move, he is effectively ambushed and cut down. But if he has tactics he avoids it altogether.
And finally, there is no advantage to attacking from the rear, but there is an advatage of attacking from multiple sides. Namely, no retaliation for most cratures. It is a gamechanger, and tactics makes it way easier to achieve.
All in all, tactics is named fairly accurately. Think about why luck is a skill 
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 12:48 PM |
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hit and run being painfully easy to perform.
Although I see the tactic of having the first move...throwing a spell at the enemy and running away as pure cheese, hit and run tactics have been employed by armies all down through military history as a means of wearing down large forces. It would undoubtedly take some additional rules to prevent total abuse in HOMM....
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Both ambush and being on the offensive are part of ingame situations. Having a bigger army makes attacking before opponent can use his or surrender the best option
The definition of ambush is an attack from a concealed position that achieves complete surprise, giving the ambusher an early advantage. What you describe is simply First Strike.
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there is an advatage of attacking from multiple sides. Namely, no retaliation for most cratures.
Attacking from multiple sides (or from the rear) does not grant you any additional advantage other than the employment of mass to destroy a stack. In most hex-based games, a flanking maneuver or attack from the rear gives the attacker additional attack bonuses or causes the enemy morale to plummet. It may be a game-changer in your eyes, but it's a short-coming in mine. Tactics, as-is, simply insures that the stronger army always wins. There are numerous battles down through history where a weaker army defeats a much stronger one by employing better tactics (like flanking, rear attacks, ambush...).
I would venture a guess, that in MP, with the use of Tactics as it is, the stronger army wins 99.99% of the time regardless of player skill.
Boring and predictable.....
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 02, 2015 01:03 PM |
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Hit and run is not easy to perform, actually it is very hard to do, if the other is good player and trained to this situation. There are bunch of posts from the past (just check Mocara or Frank's ones) relating how hard is and why a good player never lost to it.
Personally I never understood why this tactic is so feared, there are at least a half dozen of possible counters: terrain, artifacts, creature abilities, heroes chain, creatures speed, heroes abilities + the counters 3DO fixed, as movement not reset or creature stack not reset upon rehiring.
We had it in Heroes 2, we had it in Heroes 3, and suddenly it becomes an extraordinary flaw after 10 year of playing, to the point it is banned, it makes not much sense.
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Era II mods and utilities
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 01:09 PM |
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suddenly it becomes an extraordinary flaw after 10 year of playing, to the point it is banned, it makes not much sense.
To this, I totally agree. In the context of this particular game, it's cheesy and banning its' use is justified, IMO.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 02, 2015 01:13 PM |
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 01:58 PM |
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None...because I've never played MP. However, I've had the AI attack me with a hero having a single Phoenix or Black Dragon, throwing an Implosion on my biggest stack, or casting an Armageddon, run away and then pop out of a nearby castle with MP fully restored and an army to attack me again.
Annoying, but not necessarily fatal....
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 02, 2015 02:14 PM |
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So you venture in unknown land, with a) full army, b) without shackles c) without resistance, d) without resistance artifacts e) without first spotting area with scouts, f) without calculating how far can AI reach you, you got owned as deserved, then you comply it is not fair.
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 02:40 PM |
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Annoying, not unfair. And the results weren't always in favor of the AI either
Majik Resistance is all-or-nothing...either you resist, or not (an implementation I'm not particularly fond of). And if I waited to venture into unknown territory until I had a virtually unassailable army replete with arties, I would get nowhere, fast
Pardons if I seem to be making hit-and-run into a big deal...I'm not.
But the use of the Tactics skill is...to me.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 02, 2015 09:16 PM |
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With DD, fly and tp allowed it is far easier to perform hit and run. Obviously it is not an unbeatable trumpcard, best counter is actually not magic resistance or shackles of war, but recanters cloak/red orb, at least from what I have seen. Tactics is also surprisingly helpful in killing a scout sent with armageddon before he gets to act.
Anyway, what I meant was this: for now hit and run is not unbeatable, because if you attack with retreat in mind you don't take much army with you. So you can only afford 1 or 2 rounds of relatively safe spellcasting before opponent finishes off whatever you took with.
But if all creatures needed 3-4 rounds to reach opposite side of battlefield you would get 4, possibly 5 safe rounds for showering opponent with spells. Great fun, no doubt. Almost as fun as assembling cloak of undead king 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 02, 2015 10:16 PM |
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Look, I don't know how to explain this again, if you are reachable while you have full army and slow creatures, then it is your fault, not that hit and run is effective. My opinion is that removing this or that from the game, as Dimension door, as hit and run, as necro, makes the game much less interesting, less challenging and less unique, from one game to another.
Now I understand that a russian league wants at any price to have rankings reflecting their ability to perfectly crep mobs and break soon, but in the end, what I look at are boring games with very predictable issues, mostly related to first week rapidity, hero choice, banks nearby and secondary skills luck. Of course they fear nothing from the wilderness, because a) their zone is closed, b) hit and run is prohibited, so all they do is run here and there without doing all those little requirements from real life art of war, the "reconnaissance". Nobody goes at war without knowing a) where the enemy is b) how far it can strike c) what it has as power.
When you have an opponent jumping everywhere with DD because he chooses to go guild 5 instead of creatures, it is indeed hard and frustrating to catch him but at least it gives something to think about from new perspective, not do same movements over and over.
Sure I agree that diplo is totally broken and it has no place in MP, it is also a tacit agreement between players. But hit and run, I never saw the good players complaining about, not even once. Antal, Flamingo, Franck, Mocara, find a single complaint in the whole forum, you won't. It is now that everyone seems so frisky about.
Which makes me think that, even if players now are probably more skilled technically, as time passed by, they enjoy less the game and are less creative.
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 03, 2015 12:42 AM |
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My opinion is that removing this or that from the game, as Dimension door, as hit and run, as necro, makes the game much less interesting, less challenging and less unique, from one game to another.
Let me ask this...have you ever seen or been part of a game where a stronger army with a Tactician hero ever lost a battle? If not, then that's mundane predictability in my book.
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Which makes me think that, even if players now are probably more skilled technically, as time passed by, they enjoy less the game and are less creative.
Which is the issue I'm speaking to. I have the most fun pulling off the "heroic victory" against big odds where battlefield maneuver & actual tactics win out over sheer numbers. I really enjoy HOMM, but not so much as other games that allow for real tactics, which is why I play those games more
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 03, 2015 02:07 AM |
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Sorry, I know how much you hate modern multi Salamandre, but your representation of at least half of its aspects is from WCL times from what I can see. Have you seen HW gameplay?
You can hit and run almost as easily as in no rules game. You can jump around, fly and town potal. And these two are indeed often gamechanging.
I honestly have a hard time finding what you said reflect what I see every day on Twitch or heroes3.tv Early meetings are a factor, and as for reconaissance, well, it's just what you do to play well.
Some templates are more closed than others, on some you are further away than on others. If you play XL+U map I find it reasonable that you can't reach your opponent in 5 days or so.
I know you don't enjoy multiplayer anymore, but you don't need to misrepresent it to get there.
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MeKick
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2015 12:37 AM |
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BlackMagik said:
Although I see the tactic of having the first move...throwing a spell at the enemy and running away as pure cheese, hit and run tactics have been employed by armies all down through military history as a means of wearing down large forces. It would undoubtedly take some additional rules to prevent total abuse in HOMM....
Wait, I'm confused. First you're telling me that your problem with Tactics is that it isn't actually "tactics", and now you're saying that you find Tactics ridiculous since the secondary skill allows you to cast a spell and run away? You can't even cast spells during tactics phase, so how is that relevant?
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The definition of ambush is an attack from a concealed position that achieves complete surprise, giving the ambusher an early advantage. What you describe is simply First Strike.
Unless, of course, you decide to move your units to cover your shooters instead. Would you consider it first strike to hide on your side of the battlefield during "First Strike" phase? I certainly wouldn't.
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I would venture a guess, that in MP, with the use of Tactics as it is, the stronger army wins 99.99% of the time regardless of player skill.
Boring and predictable.....
Yet your guess would likely be incorrect. There have been many times (and certainly not the 0.01% you imply) when I've seen players with larger armies lose, despite having Tactics phase present on their side of the field.
What I find surprising about your observation is that you are already making generalized assumptions about how multiplayer matches work, despite the fact that you've never actually played multiplayer yourself. So then how would you know that Tactics is essentially a win, regardless of player skill? Is it because you played against AI and that strategy worked against you, or is it perhaps because you have watched others play multiplayer instead?
It's one thing to venture a simple guess, but to make such a wide claim citing just your line of thought as a justification for "boring and predictable" MP matches seems outright absurd.
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 04, 2015 01:15 AM |
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@MeKick
Fist of all, you need to lighten up...it's just a game. Secondly, I'm just stating my opinion...not fact. I don't claim to have all the answers or know this game inside and out. I just try to bring some of my experiences from other games to this one and stay within the capabilities of the game.
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Wait, I'm confused. First you're telling me that your problem with Tactics is that it isn't actually "tactics", and now you're saying that you find Tactics ridiculous since the secondary skill allows you to cast a spell and run away? You can't even cast spells during tactics phase, so how is that relevant?
Indeed, you are confused The discussion concerning hit-and-run was a sidebar to the ongoing one about tactics. And I know how the tactics phase works, my friend Go back to the second post of this page (my post) and read again, please.....
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Yet your guess would likely be incorrect. There have been many times (and certainly not the 0.01% you imply) when I've seen players with larger armies lose, despite having Tactics phase present on their side of the field.
You'll notice I phrased that as a question:
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Let me ask this...have you ever seen or been part of a game where a stronger army with a Tactician hero ever lost a battle? If not, then that's mundane predictability in my book.
Nowhere did I make any generalized assumptions about MP. I asked a question of a player who obviously HAS played MP, and would be perfectly satisfied with the reply.
I laid out my definition of what battlefield tactics are (most of which you can read in any simple google search about tactics), and discussed whether the HOMM3 Tactics skill fit that definition. IMHO, it does not. Having played other games that do incorporate actual tactics on the battlefield, I am simply looking for discussion on how actual tactics could be brought to HOMM3 in a way that fits the game without unbalancing it.
So if you want to talk about one possibility I raised, I'd be glad to hear about it, rather than a rant about my lack of MP experience
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 04, 2015 01:34 AM |
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Not that this has anything to do with the Tactics skill or hit and run. But like we discussed in another thread it would bring some more tactics into the game if ranged units could choose to go melee at will. Titans could really become nasty that way. Harpies should also have the option to not fly back, to block shooters.
Edit: As far as I remember the above are also features of Heroes 5, so it would make sense to also implement them in 3, to give another layer of tactics.
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MeKick
Hired Hero
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posted November 04, 2015 02:02 AM |
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BlackMagik said:
Fist of all, you need to lighten up...it's just a game.
I think you are mistaken. Although you are telling me to lighten up, I am not lacing my comment with anger or malice, but more so with emphasis, disagreement, and open curiosity than anything else.
With that said, here is where I am now openly curious.
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You'll notice I phrased that as a question
But the observation that I was referring to in the first place...
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I would venture a guess, that in MP, with the use of Tactics as it is, the stronger army wins 99.99% of the time regardless of player skill.
Boring and predictable.....
...was not posed as a question. Furthermore, when you say
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Nowhere did I make any generalized assumptions about MP
despite having just made an assumption that Tactics is a go-to strategy for 99% of games that makes it boring and predictable, now I am very confused as to whether or not a contradiction exists in here somewhere.
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So if you want to talk about one possibility I raised, I'd be glad to hear about it, rather than a rant about my lack of MP experience
I feel as if you think I am trying to attack you. I am not, nor did I rant about your lack of MP experience. However, I find it valid to cite it as a reason for myself to be skeptical whether or not your assumption is valid. In fact, true to the thread topic, your opinion seems to be that the Tactics skill is this go-to win card in MP while I am simply disagreeing with you.
Regarding the one possibility you raised -- that is, to enlarge the battlefield -- I would have no qualms with that.  But the game is what it is, and I also just as much like it the way it is.
On a closing note, I still fail to see how changing the name to "First Strike" would be more valid than "Tactics", considering how you wouldn't always be going for a first strike anyway. For what the skill does, I would think it to be difficult to come up with any better name for it that concisely generalizes its use.
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BlackMagik
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 04, 2015 02:37 AM |
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despite having just made an assumption that Tactics is a go-to strategy for 99% of games that makes it boring and predictable, now I am very confused as to whether or not a contradiction exists in here somewhere.
A sample size of one is still not enough to alter my perception...which is not set in stone. I'll still wager that a player with Tactics & the stronger army wins far more than loses, with Tactics having as much, or more, to do with it than having the stronger army....
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However, I find it valid to cite it as a reason for myself to be skeptical whether or not your assumption is valid.
I asked that you find some common definitions of what constitutes battlefield tactics. I cited some of the more prevalent ones, and very few fit what I perceive the Tactics skill to be. I feel my questioning is valid
The name is rather unimportant to looking at ways it could be made better...and by better I mean a truer reflection of tactics. As is, you gain enough experience to acquire a new skill and choose Tactics. In the tactics phase, you rearrange your troops and have at it. There are no true tactics involved (ie. outsmarting your opponent with superior technique).
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if ranged units could choose to go melee at will. Titans could really become nasty that way. Harpies should also have the option to not fly back, to block shooters.
Like the harpy alternative
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 04, 2015 10:18 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Nit would bring some more tactics into the game if ranged units could choose to go melee at will. Titans could really become nasty that way. Harpies should also have the option to not fly back, to block shooters.
Edit: As far as I remember the above are also features of Heroes 5, so it would make sense to also implement them in 3, to give another layer of tactics.
It is done already, in wog. Right-clicking on defend icon allow choosing type of attack: melee or ranged.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 04, 2015 10:25 AM |
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Hmm I like that feature. What about harpies?
If only HotA and WoG were compatible...
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 04, 2015 10:38 AM |
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Same, the defend icon when right clicked, allows for those creatures to select between 'stay' or 'attack and return'.
It is clear that Hota will never implement anything that people ask. Then you will have to do a choice, like me: one new town but same game play going on since 15 years, or no new town but every game aspect customizable at my liking. I picked.
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