|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
posted February 09, 2017 08:19 PM |
|
|
Oath have been cited very often in qurân, described sometimes as contracts made with God. Promising to follow the right path and obey to God is an oath, swearing is acknowledged too.
I'm not sure if oaths are not recognized at all in Christianity then.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 09, 2017 08:25 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 20:26, 09 Feb 2017.
|
LizardWarrior said:
What I'm trying to say is that oaths (from a Christian point of view) hold no value, so for example, from a theological point, swearing on the bible has no "effect", it won't enforce a contract between you and God.
I think any oath can mean something only when the one who swears it takes it seriously and there is no way to actually know that, so they are mostly formality indeed. Although, in courts and similar settings the whole ritual aspect of it kind of functions as an invitation and reminder of the seriousness of the process. Of course, breaking an oath can have legal consequences but that's an irrelevant function to the topic.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 09, 2017 09:11 PM |
|
|
markkur said:
JollyJoker said:
But you said: "The fact is a Christian should never need to be in a court of LAW."
There seems to be a contradiction.
Also - there must be a court. One or more judges, and people who speak for the sides.
Man...you gotta be trollin' me.
That's my feeling as well, because it would seem that you don't understand that there is more to it than being either being treated unjustly or treat someone unjustly - you may also be a WITNESS. A THIRD party witnessing something. Then what? Keep quiet?
There are also many cases in which it's not clear who is right or wrong, in which there is no easy compromise and so on.
You live in the real world, if you are nor somewhere in a monastery, and in the real world accidents happen.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted February 10, 2017 10:29 AM |
|
|
tSar-Ivor said:
Not quite, I don't denounce the god of the old testament, but at the same time I don't ignore his subordinance to the one true god (I believe in the worship of lesser deities, and I actually encourage it since your worldly desires bear more fruit from their worship, but that may not necessarily benefit your spiritual development, still I'm in it for the adventure rather than to go to heaven).
That's a very interesting view, Tsar. If you can tell me, I'd like to know your position on other matters, like: salvation, the immortal soul, heaven, purgatory, hell, the devil and demons.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted February 10, 2017 05:44 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 17:46, 10 Feb 2017.
|
JollyJoker said:
That's my feeling as well, because it would seem that you don't understand that there is more to it than being either being treated unjustly or treat someone unjustly - you may also be a WITNESS. A THIRD party witnessing something. Then what? Keep quiet?
There are also many cases in which it's not clear who is right or wrong, in which there is no easy compromise and so on.
You live in the real world, if you are nor somewhere in a monastery, and in the real world accidents happen.
JJ, why would being called as a witness make any difference in what I've said?
If I saw an accident, or even if "someone thought I saw something" I would NEED to do the right thing and comply with Secular law. Though, I do hope I never need to witness in that way.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 10, 2017 07:44 PM |
|
|
You said, Quote:
The fact is a Christian should never need to be in a court of LAW.
and that struck me very wrong.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted February 10, 2017 09:34 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 21:36, 10 Feb 2017.
|
JollyJoker said:
You said, Quote:
The fact is a Christian should never need to be in a court of LAW.
and that struck me very wrong.
I gathered that.
I understand the difficulty between our positions now; however,<imo> it IS a very minor one.
In a thread dedicated to expressing Christian practice in any area of life, I did forget that "our starting-points: were not actually the same regarding "secular-law" though we see secular law and Society nearly identical. Surely that, miss, can not only be understood but appreciated.
Quote:
The fact is a Christian should never need to be in a court of LAW...
Originating from our own "willful" actions.
----------------------------------------------------
Conversationally, I'll share my deeper belief regarding the thinking (or lack thereof) behind existing Human-law.
Let's look back at existing Drug-laws. Again, JJ we ARE "two peas in a pod" and at times, we have both worked (sometimes together) to address ignorance towards the use of drugs and also drug-law. However, though thankfully we arrive at the same conclusion, my belief necessarily alters my starting point to outside the realm of secular ethics. Even when I eventually agree, I am still coming from the outside, so to speak.
Here is "my" starting point on "ONE" topic...Drugs & Humans.
Again, I'm now talking about one-issue.
I am convinced that "True, Free Human-Wisdom" dictates; each of us "know-ourselves" and further we must "take complete responsibility for our own choices and actions". You think the very same JJ, I know that. However, to explain my position, I have to spell it out for any possible lurkers too.
"It's not what goes in a person that defiles the person but what comes out of that person." Christ
That reasoning is "my adopted code for anything I bodily consume". Yet, is it Secular law? Of course not. <imvho>Instead we have "blanket laws" that were made by States which essentially treat people no better than cattle.
You already WELL know this JJ, but respecting other expanding minds here...two human-bodies can be very different and yet many do not realize how very different our personal-chemical-factories can be.
i.e. We have two-laws saying "we can all drink alcohol" but "none of us can smoke cannabis"??
I'm sure your research data-base is generally the same as mine; I've lived with dull sleepy types that (in their best interest) should never smoke a doob but we've known "far more men" that should never be allowed to drink...period, because "their drinking" does not remain private but goes Public.
If they would drink in "safe isolation" with their buds? I'd be all for that but instead; too often, "we witness other, weaker or more sober people get abused - physically and/or mentally, or have dead-strangers that had no say in the matter whatsoever - ending life as bloody messes on pavement.
By my own choice, <imo> I follow a higher law because we have a law that states "Green means Go" and people are often killed because other people didn't see "Red as Stop".
____________
"Do your own research"
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted February 10, 2017 09:52 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 21:55, 10 Feb 2017.
|
Brothers and Sisters (I hope we do have some here) Time for some tunes.
Larry Norman - Only Visiting This Planet - The Outlaw
1
The Coloring Song by Petra
2
HE REIGNS -[Music
Video] - The Newsboys
3
------------------------------------
To all, my first three are indeed Christian-themed but I would like to hear...is anyone, no matter their backgrounds...favorite message...by the artistry of song.
An important tune that you value for some reason. Maybe it has uplifting or inspiring WORDS that in your-heart is a goal for your own life? or even just a sweet-picture of Life that is a treasure for you personally. <imo> We all desire/need Love and we all require some Joy as we live in a world full of headlines that promote very little in this direction.
Also, I'd encourage you to be more personal and creative, say in sharing a favorite Classical-work  provided you supply your own lyrics regarding the meaning behind the music.
____________
"Do your own research"
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 12, 2017 07:58 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 20:07, 12 Feb 2017.
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 12, 2017 08:31 PM |
|
|
frostych said:
I think the mythology of mr Tolkien sux.
...
So what do you do in MM World? Its Tolkien, Tolkien and only Tolkien?
Tolkien is great Worlds creator and great scientist.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 12, 2017 09:35 PM |
|
|
@ Markkur
It's somewhat difficult for me to answer, and I'm sure some things will sound strange.
I don't believe in Jahwe/Allah. I don't think, this being does exist. That means also, that I don't believe Jesus - if he existed historically - is his son (or Mohammed his prophet).
As much as I can accept that a historical Jesus may have existed, I do think that what he may have said was for Jews and Jews only, especially when it comes to the law. As we know, Judäa was part of the Roman Empire, BUT the Romans didn't interfere into the religious beliefs of their conquered provinces. So - for ME, in MY interpretaion - what Jesus said was, the Jews should not mind the fact they were part of the Roman empire and Roman, but mind about how to go about their OWN law (since Roman provinces had relative freedom and HAD their own law). Which makes a lot of sense.
What does NOT make sense is to leave worldly stuff aside, because we obviously live in it. And we live in community. Communities need rules, because a lot of things - like drugs - need REGULATION. Not in an absolute sense, for the individual as an individual to benefit the individual, but for every member of a community to benefit the community.
With drugs the problem is that they are wonderful temporary problem ERASER, and the more of a problem they temporarily erase, the more of a problem THEY become because they don't actually SOLVE the problems. So generally spoken, the happier people are, the less of a problem are drugs, and the unhappier people are the more of a problem they are - which makes sense, because everyone WANTS to be happy, and when you are unhappy, and can't creally erase the reason for your unhappiness, then erasing the unhappiness (temporarily) is better than the alternatives. AT first.
Which means, as long as there are unhappy people it doesn't make sense to criminalize drugs and drug users.
Now, the thing is, I find that quite obvious and easy to understand, especially after witnessing what happened in the prohibition. Which is why the "drug on wars" is outrageosly stupid and foolish. The community doesn't profit.
I despise the idea of "godly laws" - in the best case it would treat us a children who are unable to see what's good or bad for then. In the worst case it means following the quirks of a dictator.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 12:14 AM |
|
Edited by markkur at 00:17, 13 Feb 2017.
|
Stevie said:
Hey Markkur, how do you reconcile 2 Timothy 3:16 where it says that "All Scripture is God-breathed" with the book of Ecclesiastes? What are your thoughts on that?
To zoom-in...could you be very specific with your concern?
The first thing I saw was, if I believe God's the real deal, then God is the source of all things I know. So even if I was to write something against God, in a sense, by creating all of Nature, which eventually brought yours truly, when I use my mind, hands and fingers, all came from him. You have to keep in mind the metaphor that "Wind is spirit". "The spirit blows where it will" <imo> Since, God is Spirit, Paul well expressed then, what I live now.
There are different ways to see the question, so I need to wait to answer, till I see your, thought...seemingly, what must be a conflict. However, I do have to say upfront...I'm no O.T. scholar.
JollyJoker said:
I despise the idea of "godly laws" - in the best case it would treat us a children who are unable to see what's good or bad for then. In the worst case it means following the quirks of a dictator.
As long as you understand that my Faith does not put me at odds with you I'm content. Civil law is what it is. <imo> If laws need to be changed? then the people need to do their civic duties and get faulty laws changed.
About your despising "Godly Laws" that's not exactly a surprise.
I'll add though, that I think many issues today are merely a matter of perspective. I don't see myself as some stupid toddler under a tyrant, I simply see myself i.e. giving respect to "the Elder that has an inside track on what makes me, his creation, tick." i.e. Showing me a spiritual blueprint that before I had not believed even existed.
I live totally in freedom, because I am free of what was destroying me on the inside. Some people don't care much for that jazz but for this man, it is life itself. By the way, I'm still far from perfection, so that's makes my reality all the sweeter. I'm closer to my own "acceptability" of me than ever. Sort of a "when I lay down the last time never to rise again on this Earth, by the end, I can safely say that I've ended doing the best I can...towards everyone else.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 01:55 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 04:10, 13 Feb 2017.
|
About a higher or holy law, let me translate part of a short interview by Sevan Nisanyan. It's actually not a real interview, he writes both the questions and the answers, I guess, prison does that to you. I think this guy is one of the most interesting and original intellectuals in here:
Q: You claim that Christianity has paved a way to an individual doctrine of conscience, while Islam didn’t. Don’t we see a bias here?
A: No, it’s just an observation limited in time and platform. Christianity started in a relatively more sophisticated urban setting, remained as a movement of opposition for 300 years. We can’t disregard these factors. We can’t also claim there is no difference between Jesus who says “Give what’s Caesar’s to Caesar” and Muhammed who says “I am Caesar and I represent God’s will.” After it took Caesar into service, it’s pretty plain to see where Christianity ended up as well, though. They surpassed anyone in bigotry and oppression.
What we speak of here is the moral corruption brought by the idea of absolute faith, it doesn’t matter if it’s this religion or that. The reason I specifically focus on the Quran is about how it’s a rather very transparent expression of the road from absolute faith to a moral burn-out. Otherwise, the examples are many. For instance, Lutherism which started out as a religious liberation movement and then turned into a terrifying hate call for peasants, Jews, Turks. For instance Calvin, who called for the execution of his closest ally and theoretician Servetius. For instance, the Puritans in America, who started out as a movement of individualist rebellion to authority and ended up as a regime of bigotry and hypocrisy. For instance, the Order of the Knights of Saint John who started out by saying they were going to build hospitals for the poor pilgrims and ended up as mafioso pirates in Rhodes and Malta. For instance, the Jesuits who started out as a movement of education and propaganda but ended up as a community of political influence and nepotism. Neither the Mormons, nor the Ismailis, nor the Druses or the Lebanon Maronites are immune to such transformation. If even something such as Buddhism, a teaching of absolute peace and introversion, can turn into an instrument of tyranny of the state in Sri Lanka, Myanmar, just imagine the rest.
Q: What is the common ground in all of these?
A: You can’t preserve morality, if you claim the absolute truth. Just like absolute authority, absolute truth will corrupt you. A man without doubt is the greatest monster in the universe.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 08:45 AM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 11:20, 13 Feb 2017.
|
Excellent piece of self irony.
markkur said:
To zoom-in...could you be very specific with your concern?
Basically, Ecclesiastes is the ramblings of a madman. King Solomon, in his "wisdom", argues for futility under the sun. Everything he says is what the fallen man says, not the Spirit. Therefore the apparent conflict with 2 Timothy 3:16 which says that ALL Scripture is God-breathed, Ecclesiastes included. So how do you reconcile that? Would you claim that everything Solomon said, every ounce of insanity he spouted, was under the direct guidance of God?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 09:26 AM |
|
|
|
Or once again empty rhetoric from you that does not correspond to anything concrete, since for it to be even hypothetically ironic, he should have claimed or indicated that he knew the absolute truth.
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 10:38 AM |
|
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 11:30 AM |
|
|
Baronus -
Baronus said:
frostych said:
I think the mythology of mr Tolkien sux.
...
So what do you do in MM World? Its Tolkien, Tolkien and only Tolkien?
Tolkien is great Worlds creator and great scientist.
Tolkien created a great nonsense, he was biased by his own world picture that was ascribed in his mind. Same mythology I have saw many times - nothing interesting, except a good "picture" and "wow" effect.
In shorty: I do not need any mythology, coz' I have my own - mythology of Santa  , justice, and the all frigging goodness , and do not need any confirmation about my mythology in the real world (truly different from the guys above that is trying to find a confirmation for the God in the Books, that is written by a Humans ).
And my mythology saying: harming the innocent common peoples is a bad, no matter where they are, and who they are. The great prophet - frostysh , also said: the all peoples is basically the same - only their choice is make a difference!. And also wise and almighty frostysh said: beware a mass-controlling ideas, and simple explanation of the world that surrounds you! Your emotions doesn't care if that explanations truth or not... - frostysh 2017
I am prophet of 21 century religion, so fall on the ground poor mortals! kiss your knees and tremble before almighty god's prophet - frostysh! - WHahahahahaaaaaahhaha I am sorry.. 
____________
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 11:43 AM |
|
|
Gazing at you trying to pull sarcasm always reminds me of a film critic I once read:
“Moore delivers, subtly, the Palin we all know, overflowing with unfounded, unearned, unqualified, confidence.”
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 01:51 PM |
|
|
Heretic frostych said:
Blasphemy
I shall give you a heart penalty for this, son.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
Baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted February 13, 2017 03:40 PM |
|
|
|
Ok. You are genius Tolkien was fool... I dont see, about what to talk with you...
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
