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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 12, 2016 11:52 AM |
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I don't even want to post articles anymore.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 14, 2016 12:32 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 12:53, 14 Nov 2016.
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Let little bit clarify the conclusion about the Armenian Genocide.
So what frostysh is thinks about the this genocide for now:
1) The Armenian Genocide have a well planned and systematic character.
2) The genocide was a result of the long term politics of the Ottoman Empire government of that time (to be more preciously - Young Turks, or the CUP, as they called) as clearly showed mr Taner Akçam .
3) The opposite thesis , and the attempts to show the genocide as the something non well planned and non systematic, i.e. in the works of the mr Guenter Lewy, I have found as incoherent, again due to the next critique of this works by mr Taner.
4) The Armenian Genocide is well recognized by the many International Institutions, UN and European Parliament included.
mr artu, about the "1500" officers, and the speculations of their deaths, with the all respect from frostysh to you mr artu, I can say that you have see too much of the propaganda military movies (this is acording to your attempts to post a SU-propaganda pictures dated by "SU-Afghanistan War"), and perhpas you never saw the war, and the violent death of the peoples by yourself.
You have said by yourself, the many deaths has been caused by war and diseases, I see no reasons to exclude the Ottoman Army officers from this list. The life of the particular officer, I found no more "precious" than a life of particular innocent child, of the innocent women, or the any innocent human, or even the soldier, Of course that is in general, but still.
So I have a hell no idea, why did you make angry on me after my speculative joke about the reason of the death of the "1500 well trained sultan officers that was on duty to protect their Empire", you many time speculated with the reason of the death of the hundred thousands (and perhaps a million), of the non-muslim guys in the Ottoman Empire of that time, and I have showed no angry, and did not dropped the conversation because of that. . . 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 14, 2016 04:07 PM |
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Do you even know what court-martialed means? It's when the military puts his own soldiers on a trial for misconduct. A disease or hunger can not cause you to get court-martialed. More than 1500 officers were court-martialed for mistreating the Armenians during the deportation. The government sued its own soldiers for abusing their power.
My advise would be not to attempt making silly jokes because you are as annoying as you are without them already, and no, it's not because "you challenge people's opinions," it is because you are not competent enough to understand those opinions.
The mass deportation of Armenians was systematic and organized and it directly caused the deaths, that is what the international institutions recognize and justly categorize as a genocide. But there was no premeditated goal by the government to exterminate the Armenian race. They didn't touch the ones in the big cities, in some cases they court-martialed their own officers. The deaths were in some cases caused by spontaneous attacks of irregulars, in some cases environmental, and in some cases -indeed- provoked or conspired by military officers. But the "well-planned and organized" motive was not to exterminate the Armenian race. If that was it, I'm sure marching them through kilometers of mountain steps and deserts and exposing also their own soldiers to the harsh conditions would not be their method of choice. They could simply mas-shoot them like the Nazis did in the beginning. Nowhere in his book, Taner Akçam suggests that the government had premeditated something identical to or at the scale of "the Final Solution," he focuses on the provoked killings and the role of the nationalist ideology of Young Turks on these provocations. But his theory is not that the deportation was directly organized to exterminate all Armenians.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 15, 2016 10:31 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 10:46, 15 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
Do you even know what court-martialed means? It's when the military puts his own soldiers on a trial for misconduct. A disease or hunger can not cause you to get court-martialed. More than 1500 officers were court-martialed for mistreating the Armenians during the deportation. The government sued its own soldiers for abusing their power.
My advise would be not to attempt making silly jokes because you are as annoying as you are without them already, and no, it's not because "you challenge people's opinions," it is because you are not competent enough to understand those opinions.
1) Mr artu this court, little bit looks like not the attempt to punish the guilty guys, but burrow the clues . . and the guys that have know something.
I have no wonder if the charge and the creators of this court were the same guys who have organized the genocide, and actually this theory confirming in my eyes, because of the "cleansing of the archives" .
The courts like that is a standard procedure after the modern industrial genocides invoked (SU, CPR, SRoV, DPRK is the examples), the main goal of this courts with minimal suspicious "drown the clues as deep as possible, and transport the important figures of the genocide, that can speak too much, into the silent eternal world  ".
And it is looks like a mr Cemal Pasha has been one of the victims of this court, the same Cemal Pasha that trying to employ the actually deportation politics, but not the genocide as the "center" ordered. Very remarkable, mr Cemal Pasha may say a many interesting things if he being alive . . .
Well I have my own conspiracy theory:
Cemal Pasha has been assassinated, because he know too much, especially about the real organizers of the armenian genocide, which was the german guys, and the idiots from the CUP was only their puppets. german guys have used the genocide before, so they have some experiance, and actually the goal of the armenian genocide in the anatolia was to destroy the Ottoman pity Empire, and the Operation Nemesis was successful attempt to hide a clue by the german guys. Because I have a hell no idea, why in the other cases, they want to kill the so crucial persons as the Cemal Pasha was.
Why all this assassinations happens, even after the court? Because with the all respect, Ottoman Empire was just Ottoman Empire... , nothing more, nothing less.
Can you imagine the assassination of the uncle Mao and his co? Of the uncle Jo, and his co?  And this guys has been involving in the genocides that the poor Young Turks, can only dream .
Why is it so? Because, with the all respect to the Ottoman Empire, this empire never was something like the SU, or the CPR. Of course the fact that they have lose the war, playing it's role too.
artu said:
The mass deportation of Armenians was systematic and organized and it directly caused the deaths, that is what the international institutions recognize and justly categorize as a genocide
Mr artu, need I to post what actually IAGS recognized as a genocide of the armenian guys again
I will better, repeat it by my words: The Armenian genocide in the 1915-1923 was a well planned, systematic, and committed by Young Turk , and you mr artu, you have tried to deny the words systematic and well planned on the beginning of our discussion, you blamed the poor life conditions, the continuous local conflicts, the well trained brutal sultan officers that was on duty to save their Empire , etc, etc.
(by the way, as I know in the Ottoman Empire was only one normal officer Academy, and that because the officers that have completed this academy was something new, and interesting to the folks , this is the roots of the little bit hmm bloated stories about them, i.e. in the many European guys, the military officers Academies was a casual stuff. ).
So as I see , have you agreed with the IAGS definition of the Armenian genocide after reading a works of mr Taner?
artu said:
But there was no premeditated goal by the government to exterminate the Armenian race. They didn't touch the ones in the big cities, in some cases they court-martialed their own officers. The deaths were in some cases caused by spontaneous attacks of irregulars, in some cases environmental, and in some cases -indeed- provoked or conspired by military officers. But the "well-planned and organized" motive was not to exterminate the Armenian race. If that was it, I'm sure marching them through kilometers of mountain steps and deserts and exposing also their own soldiers to the harsh conditions would not be their method of choice. They could simply mas-shoot them like the Nazis did in the beginning.
1) Yes, there was the premeditated goals to homogenize the population of the Anatolia on the religious-ethnology basis. The genocide was well planned, and it used to achieve this goal. according to mr Taner works, and I am agree with it.
As I said before, if the genocide appeared in the industrial society, the 95% that the government has planned and executed it.
2) You can check the non-muslim population history of Istanbul.
3) Yep, there was a many different reasons of the deaths, the same as in the holocaust, or in the great purges, or in the red khmers stuff, etc. This is including the deaths from diseases, the direct killing, forced labor to the death, hand made starvation, etc etc. The Armenian Genocide is no exception from this list.
4) About death marches, mr artu, it is clearly that you have never saw the violent death in your life. As I have mentioned again.
I do not know, perhaps it is genetics, I do not know, but the human being cannot directly kill the many human beings, by itself without a serious mental issues. Perhaps 1, perhaps even 10 defenseless peoples, but not the 100 , or 200.
That because you need a death marches, a forced labor to the death, a hand made starvation, etc etc this is almost unavoidable things if you want to rise your genocide to the million-s scale. It is just a psychological threats.
Even the straight ideologies as the nazi stuff, and the islam, or marx class warfare stuff, will not help to you in this case.
Of course, you can use a 50 megatton splitting warhead in this case . To kill a millions will be a very easy. But I have doubts that such technologies has been ready to use in the beginning of the woth c. AD.
artu said:
Nowhere in his book, Taner Akçam suggests that the government had premeditated something identical to or at the scale of "the Final Solution," he focuses on the provoked killings and the role of the nationalist ideology of Young Turks on these provocations. But his theory is not that the deportation was directly organized to exterminate all Armenians.
sophistic it is mr artu ...
1) mr Taner in hist critics of the mr Lewy book, many times called the Armenian Genocide, as the pre-planned, as the central organized, as the systematic, and as the part of the long term politics of the Young Turks, CUP of whatever. And in his books, mr Taner stick with same position. And even more, he exposes the poor attempts of the RoT governmnet to cover and hide any evidences that a genocide was like the above mentioned.
Perhaps I need to answer on your sophistic, with a direct citations from the works. that would be better I think...
2) "The Final Solution Ottoman Empire edition" that actually was my own label, on the Armenian Genocide, I have never saw the stuff like that in the mr Taner works.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 15, 2016 10:57 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 15, 2016 11:14 AM |
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The conspiracy theories are just awesome but the court-martialed officers weren't all executed so it really cant be to silence them... You are like a broken record who can not understand that genocide does not necessarily mean trying to exterminate a race ideologically, although it has been explained to you like fifteen times already. This is the legal definition of a genocide:
"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
From the beginning, I said that the deportations lead to the above, it was predictable and the government didn't care BUT their premeditated intent was not to wipe out the Armenian race just because they were Armenians, like the Nazis did to the Jews. Unlike the Holocaust, this is a situation the nationalist uprisings triggered and then things escalated beyond the original intent. So, what I said was that they didn't organize anything with the the motivation of wiping out a race, not that what lead to the genocide wasn't organized. Now, you DIDN'T read Taner Akçam's book and only gazed at a few paragraphs on-line but I did, and I know he claims absolutely nothing contradictory to what I said above. So, it would really be nice to stop the trolling and the smileys while talking about something where millions of people lost their lives.
You are sucking the life out of a thread that was meant for people to share articles. Go feed your shallowness elsewhere.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 15, 2016 11:57 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 11:58, 15 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
The conspiracy theories are just awesome but the court-martialed officers weren't all executed so it really cant be to silence them...
Whahhhhhhhaaa. ..
You making the court and trials, and stuff, executing some guys, usually the MOST inportant, that is know too much ------ > making it public as possible ----------> the other will stay silince because they do not want to face the same fate. Even more, you can use them as the servants, because they know that you can kill them in any moment with a legal reason. . .
artu said:
You are like a broken record who can not understand that genocide does not necessarily mean trying to exterminate a race ideologically, although it has been explained to you like fifteen times already. This is the legal definition of a genocide:
I just curious mr artu, you are truly believing in what you are saying, or you trying to assure yourself in the non-systematic, non well planned character of the Armenian genocide, to white-wash the RoT government before yourself?
artu said:
But the Ottoman government didn't care, Armenian lives were the least of their worries at the time. However, it's not some ideological wipe out like the Holocaust, their motive was not "to cleanse the world of the Armenian race." For instance, in Istanbul and Izmir, Armenians werent exiled since these were big cities not in danger of any local bloodshed. The Ottoman officers thought of themselves as on defense, unlike the Nazis. They were brutal because they believed that was the only way to save the state, and the way they were traditionally trained, you exist to serve the state and the Sultan.
artu said:
As I said in the beginning, the last century of the empire is a century of struggling with nationalist uprisings, this creates a chain of bloody revolts and again bloody supressions of them. They are not one continuous incident though and they are not a systematic plan of cleansing races. Why would you leave out the Armenians in Istanbul and Izmir, where they are very populated, if your intention was to wipe out the whole race?
Quote:
. . .the deportation and exile of the Armenians was not a violent by-product of the war but, rather, was part and parcel of a plan to homogenize Anatolia on an ethno-religious basis . . .
from mr Taner's works.
They have no sustematic plan to cleansing the race, but they have a systematic plan to lceansing the any non-muslim from the Anatolia, which a little difference, a very little difference from the nazi guys i.e. And as I said, there is a different targets for a genocide, i.e. a rural guys in the circa 1930AD in the territory of the SU.
artu said:
"Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Quote:
On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic, well-planned and organized genocide of its Armenian citizens an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years. The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
This is from resolution of the IAGS, I think the International Association of the Genocide Scholars, and the UN, and the European Parliament is well aware about the definition of the word "genocide" .
And they all together calling it as a well planned and committed by the Young Turks, CUP, etc.. So I have a hell no idea why you mr artu, trying to speculate with the definitions of the genocide if we have a conclusions of the hell bucket of the international organization the purpose of which - the genocide studying.
artu said:
From the beginning, I said that the deportations lead to the above, it was predictable and the government didn't care BUT their premeditated intent was not to wipe out the Armenian race just because they were Armenians, like the Nazis did to the Jews. Unlike the Holocaust, this is a situation the nationalist uprisings triggered and then things escalated beyond the original intent. So, what I said was that they didn't organize anything with the the motivation of wiping out a race, not that what lead to the genocide wasn't organized. Now, you DIDN'T read Taner Akçam's book and only gazed at a few paragraphs on-line but I did, and I know he claims absolutely nothing contradictory to what I said above. So, it would really be nice to stop the trolling and the smileys while talking about something where millions of people lost their lives.
You are sucking the life out of a thread that was meant for people to share articles. Go feed your shallowness elsewhere.
Yes, they have no plan to wipe out the armenian race from the Earth, only from the Anatolia, along with the christians too. - A "pure myslim nation" , Is it sounds familiar? .
mr artu, the conclusion of the IAGS, has also based on the some works of the mr Taner too (you can found one of them in the IAGS resource in the Global Network, there a very interesting article about a cleansing of the archives of the genocide stuff in the RoT, by mr Taner, I have posted the link to that works in the previous page of the thread.).
You have not even specified which book you have read. mr Taner have a lot of works about the Armenian Genocide, actually he claimed as a "leading specialist" in this case.
And actually mr Taner, criticized the works in which the Armenian Genocide called as "non-systematic, and non-well-planned" , so again, I have a hell no idea of which books you are talking about.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 15, 2016 12:46 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:48, 15 Nov 2016.
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The extermination was not systematic as in "we have a plan to kill all Armenians in Anatolia" but once again for your thick head, the intent to empty Anatolia is systematic and since it is the execution of that plan which caused the death of masses, it is naturally concluded by the IAGS that the genocide was systematic.
I am talking about this book. Now, read my words that you quoted in bold above and then compare it to Taner Akçam's own words that is the introduction to his book. If you dont trust my translation, you can ask anybody else who knows Turkish, these are taken from the book introduction above:
Ittihat ve Terakki (CUP), responded to the feeling and fear of getting cornered that had spread to the whole country step by step after the Balkan Wars by sterilizing the Anatolian lands from non-muslim elements and a policy of Turkification. The belief that not only the economy but the social relations and the ethnic compounds of the country needed to be homogenised was applied as a systematic policy. WW 1 is the most important breaking point in these policies. Because the war resulted in the convenient conditions to send the suspected (of rebellion) minorities to exile and it had provided them the reason to apply these Turkification policies.
Now, you were talking out of your ass about how this is about Islam while I tried to tell you it was about nationalist conflicts and the empire losing land after land and getting weak, you were talking out of your ass when you said the killings were well-planned while he talks about homogenization of Anatolia by exile, just like I've been telling you from the start. There is nothing contradictory in Akçam's analysis with what I've been telling you. The Armenian Genocide is not identical to the Holocaust, no in motive, not in execution, not in anything. It is an overreach to put the two in one basket.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 16, 2016 01:23 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 13:29, 16 Nov 2016.
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artu -
artu said:
The extermination was not systematic . . .
well and mr Taner, and the all of this international associations have a different opinion, and for a hell good reasons as I can see, and as for myself, I am not so naive to believe that such things in such conditions as the Armenian Genocide in the Ottoman Empire through a beginning of the 20th century AD, can appear without a well sustained plan . . .
The Archive cleansing, the reaction of the RoT government to the shcolars that tried to study a genocide (as mr Taner, i.e.) - almost with no doubts confirming a well planned character of the genocide itself.
But some imbeciles killed Cemal Pasha, one of the most crucial and interesting figures in this case, I think being he alive, he make a light on the many things... Actually, the guys who killed Cemal Pasha, gave a lot of favor to the guys who actually planned and executed the genocide strategy.
artu said:
as in "we have a plan to kill all Armenians in Anatolia" but once again for your thick head, the intent to empty Anatolia is systematic and since it is the execution of that plan which caused the death of masses, it is naturally concluded by the IAGS that the genocide was systematic.
Well, my head is not so thick, actually, as a standard human head, it can be easily crashed with a modern weapon, such as assaults rifles.
Quote:
On the contrary, what the evidence shows is a government so keen, and able, to maintain a tight grip that, in order to stop any help from reaching the Armenians, it intervened in the most minute details of such aid operationseven going to the trouble of tracking down two Armenians distributing money in Deir Zor so as to prevent any and all help for the doomed victims. Indeed, some Turkish officials, whom Cemal Pasha had authorized to help resettle the deported Armenians, disclosed in their personal memoirs that the aim of the deportations was not relocation but extermination. 93 133 Genocide Studies and Prevention 3:1 April 2008 Moreover, the authorities, whom Lewy portrays as feeble and impotent, proceeded harshly against those local officials who really believed that the policy was a genuine plan to resettle the Armenian deportees; some of these officials, as a result, were liquidated in various ways, and others were dismissed from their posts. The murders of at least six such officials are known: the governor general of Basra; the county executives of Lice, Mu ntefak, Midyat, and Bafra; and the deputy county executive of Bes`iri. 94 Approximately twenty local officials were relieved of their posts, and some of them openly stated in their oral and written testimonies at the Istanbul courts-martial, as well as in their memoirs, that they were dismissed because they did not want to get involved in the anti-Armenian exterminatory operations.
this is from work of mr Taner, the above mentioned critics to the mr Lewy book
Nah, mr artu, I will not believe to you "BS sensor that is trembling again" rather I will stick with the results of the investigation that committed by mr Taner, at least for now.
artu said:
I am talking about this book. Now, read my words that you quoted in bold above and then compare it to Taner Akçam's own words that is the introduction to his book. If you dont trust my translation, you can ask anybody else who knows Turkish, these are taken from the book introduction above:
I do not trust to you translation (because I have already saw the results of "BS that is trembling again..." ), mr artu. and plz, post the link in the Wikipedia on this book, or at least highlight the book, in the mr Taner Wikipedia page, I will not download a third-party suspicious resources in my browser.
artu said:
Ittihat ve Terakki (CUP), responded to the feeling and fear of getting cornered that had spread to the whole country step by step after the Balkan Wars by sterilizing the Anatolian lands from non-muslim elements and a policy of Turkification. The belief that not only the economy but the social relations and the ethnic compounds of the country needed to be homogenised was applied as a systematic policy. WW 1 is the most important breaking point in these policies. Because the war resulted in the convenient conditions to send the suspected (of rebellion) minorities to exile and it had provided them the reason to apply these Turkification policies
This is looks like a selective citation, that have cutted off from the context.
What a date of the publication of this book? I have doubts that mr Taner, can so easily change his opinion as mr Bernard Lewis, about the Armenian Genocide.
artu said:
Now, you were talking out of your ass about how this is about Islam while I tried to tell you it was about nationalist conflicts and the empire losing land after land and getting weak, you were talking out of your ass when you said the killings were well-planned while he talks about homogenization of Anatolia by exile, just like I've been telling you from the start.
I am not clearly understanding you mr artu, but obviously the islam and nationalism, have a crucial role in terms of the decision of the rulers of the Ottoman Empire of that time, in terms of - "to exterminate the non-muslims in the Anatolia", I have many times saw the works about a role of the Islam in the Armenian Genocide, despite the Jihad against RI, GB and the co, has been failed, in the minds of the common folks it worked again non-muslims in the Anatolia.
this is includes the soldiers and the officers. As I said before, this is obviously, because the peoples in that time, especially in the Ottoman Empire was a very traditional.
artu said:
There is nothing contradictory in Akçam's analysis with what I've been telling you. The Armenian Genocide is not identical to the Holocaust, no in motive, not in execution, not in anything. It is an overreach to put the two in one basket.
Nah mr artu, you posting not a truth, and trying to escape from your own words, that a genocide was non-systematic and non-well-planned (which obviously looks like a naive nonsense, or the attempt to whitewash RoT -guys ). Mr Taner, many times clearly stated that a genocide was a well-planned and systematic. In the many of his works, and not only mr Taner, btw.
Quote:
A Shameful Act, New York Times review by Gary J. Bass
A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility, by Taner Akcam, is a Turkish blast against this national denial. A historian and former leftist activist now teaching at the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at the University of Minnesota, Akcam is often described as the first Turkish scholar to call the massacres genocide, and his impressive achievement here is to shine fresh light on exactly why and how the Ottoman Empire deported and slaughtered the Armenians. He directly challenges the doubters back home, basing his powerful book on Turkish sources in the old Ottoman scriptincluding the failed Ottoman war crimes tribunals held after World War I. Although he bolsters his case with material from the American, British and German archives, he writes that the remaining Ottoman records are enough to show that the ruling party's central committee "did deliberately attempt to destroy the Armenian population."
Armenian Genocide - University of Minnesota Duluth
This is not a one of the many articles of the mr Taner (the many of which on Turkish language), but a book on English .
Interesting fact that, it seems that mr Taner was a "left activist" , and it is looks like this fact has not killed the objectivity of mr Taner, but I hope that if he are historian, he have realized a results of the implementing "red-marx" utopia to the large amount of peoples, and I hope he have successfully drop off this naive nonsense .
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 03:30 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:32, 16 Nov 2016.
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If Akçam shifted his position to claiming that the central plan was to exterminate all the deported people, this is not the mainstream opinion among scholars, it is also not what he had written in the 2007 book himself. In Akçam's Wikipedia page, the book I linked you is as translated as The Armenian Issue is Resolved, as I said, what I translated is already written in the book page I linked, you can ask anybody else to translate and the result will be the same. There are many Akçam critics here, who claim that his leftist opinions which resulted in him leaving the country in the past affects his objectivity and gives him a bias on the issue but to be honest, I have not witnessed this while reading his book and he seems credible to me.
In your quotes, he doesn't seem to be looking at a central plan by the government again but rather specific incidents where some of the officers took the initiative and deliberately provoked the deaths, which I already told you had happened. But half the people in the military in critical posts on Eastern front would not be left "unaware" of a secret plan and then be liquidated right in the middle of the war, the Ottoman army was already short on soldiers, losing so many trained officers in the Balkan Wars and then Sarikamis. And Cemal Pasha was killed in 1922, way after the deportation was over, he was not killed by the government, he was assassinated by two Armenian militias. (For revenge I assume but there are also historians who link the death order to Stalin.)
And what you fail to grasp again, when I tell you that the Armenian Genocide is not ideological like the Holocaust, is that the ethnicity/religion of the people targeted was not the issue because they were considered inferior races. As Akçam you happen to trust so much, also says like I quoted, it is because the nationalist uprisings and independence wars triggered a conflict of interest and a fear of new ones.
I don't know how else to put the difference any simpler: If a Jew changed his/her identity, hid among German people, the Nazis tried to
"discover" him/her out, to send to gas chambers. The Jews (or gypsies, the handicapped, the mentally ill) were killed because they were seen inferior in existence, not because they were considered a potential threat of war. The Ottomans did the opposite, they tried to "convert" the Armenians first, which is also wrong, of course, but it displays an opposite set of mind in terms of racial superiority, an Armenian kid taken in and assimilated by a Muslim family was no longer their problem, where as Nazis would see that as an "infiltration." During WW 2, the Allies offered the Nazis vehicles and supplies to use on the Eastern front, if they agree to give away the civilian Jews held in the camps and let them immigrate to Western countries. The Nazis refused the offer because a military advantage was not good enough reason to let the Jews escape and live. The Ottomans, on the other hand, would jump on that offer so fast you wouldn't believe it, because the Armenians staying in Anatolia was seen as a military threat.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 17, 2016 04:18 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 16:36, 17 Nov 2016.
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I am sorry, I have some problems in the real life, so I cannot respond in the proper time.
Huh, another bucket of little-bit speculative interpretetion of the facts by you mr artu.
1) Yes, I have too much trust to the works of mr Taner Akçam, but he is good, I can say no more. His works is amazing, mr Taner have access to the archives of of the RoT, he is well aware about the oral traditions of the contingent of the peoples in the RoT, he studied a thousands of the documents, his works about a Armenian Genocide is a classic, that is recognized even by his critics.
It is impressive, indeed. And the main conclusion of hist works I can express like this - "The systematic Armenian Genocide, has been organized, orchestrated, etc, by Ottoman Empire government of that time, even more the RoT government have used a many power to hide this fact"
2) About a central plan, mr artu, read plz this stuff - Critics of mr Lewy book, by mr Taner (pdf), that from where I have collected a lot information about a genocide, and about the central plan, btw mr Taner, mentioned a huge responsibilite of the government of the German guys in that time too, for the Armenian Genocide.
3) About a killing of the Cemal Pasha, I have already mentioned this incident, and I have my own opinion about that - as about the attempt to "cut off" some important information from being public. . . But not as the "revenge".
Why Cemal Pasha has not been killed when he was in the German, well - this is obliviously, too suspicious... And perhaps mr Cemal Pasha have a naive thoughts that he will be left alive, regardless of the many important information about the genocide, that he holds . .
3) About nationalist "conflicts", you little bit speculating with a facts, mr Taner by himself in the book "Shameful Act" have depicted the armenian nationalism, rebellions, etc NOT as factors that caused a genocide. Even more, in the above mentioned critics to the mr Lewy book, mr Taner payed attention on the fail of the "Turkish-Armenian" depicting of the events in the Ottoman Empire.
4) About the similarity of the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide (well as any other genocidal politics in the industrial societies of the late 19th-20th-21th century AD.). Quote:
Every arm of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the killing process. Parish churches and the Interior Ministry supplied birth records showing who was Jewish; the Post Office delivered the deportation and denaturalization orders; the Finance Ministry confiscated Jewish property; German firms fired Jewish workers and disenfranchised Jewish stockholders.
Holocaust (Wikipedia)
In case of the Armenian genocide, the government hold a tight grasp on the events too, they neutralized any opposition, that tried to invoke a deportation politics, rather than genocidal, the Special Organization, along with the special army squadrons (perhaps formed from gendarmes) has done all dirty work, something like a very poor predecessor of the SS/Annanerbe/"killing squadrons", etc etc of the Nazi guys, or the NKVD of the SU. The whole system of the Ottoman Empire has been involved in this genocide. As I have mentioned in the first post on this topic.
5) About the ideology, motivation, propaganda, and other stuff. Mr artu, I will repeat gain myself - Nazi guys thought that they are on defence, the killed jewish with a holy beliefs that they protecting the future of their land, of their nations.
The Jewish guys has been warned long before the holocaust - to leave the "aryan lands" , the jewish guys has been depicted as a cause of the Great Depression in the German guys of that time, they has been depicted as a "bacteria that harms the aryan nation, make it bleeding", they has been depicted as a "tuberculosis of nation", the "Marxists Jewish" etc etc.
Mr artu, the tuberculosis is a dangerous disease, , so you can imagine the picture that appeared in the common nazi idiot of that time. "I need to protect my nation from tuberculosis" .
"The defense" trick is standard stuff, that usually apllied to the large amount of peoples. The same stuff was in the Ottoman Empire, in the SU, and in the Nazi guys. But with a different targets, in the first case that was "non-muslim traitors", in the second - the "parasites" , "the enemies of the our peoples" , in the third case that was - "plagues of the aryan nation", "the natural enemy of the aryans - the jewish". I see a little difference.
 Quote:
Antisemitism in Germany: on 1 April 1933 SA troopers urge a national boycott of Jewish businesses. Here they are outside Israel's Department Store in Berlin. The signs read: "Germans! Defend yourselves! Don't buy from Jews." ("Deutsche! Wehrt Euch! Kauft nicht bei Juden!")[56] The store was later ransacked during Kristallnacht in 1938, then handed over to a non-Jewish family. - Wikipedia, Holocaust
Your attempts, mr artu, to make the accent on the "nationalistic armenian revolutionist and their threat to the Ottoman Empire" is more and more boring to myself, it looks like you have a poor knowledge about the genocide politics examples in the history.
The genocide of the SU PoW's in the "WWII" by Nazi guys, the genocide of the rural guys in the SU, circa 1930AD, the rural guys actually in the SU have made A MUCH MORE success in their revolutionary stuff against the government, than the poor divided armenian folks in the Ottoman Empire, and many many other examples.
So what a difference of the Ottoman Empire, from Nazi guys and SU guys in this case, I see no difference.
P.S. There is a lot of disturbance factors in my real life, that prevents me from studying of the examples of the genocidal politics of the past, such as Armenian genocide, but indeed, I think it is a very important things. I mean, the peoples is already dead, I have doubts that even with a modern Science this fact can be changed . But you mr artu, if the same peoples is still "on the rule", the same peoples that have made a decision "to exterminate", we have a huge probability that this peoples will make a similar decision in the future, perhaps with a different obstacles, but with no less horrible results. . .
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2016 04:41 PM |
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Salamandre said:
oh man, snowing win. if i had been drinking when seeing that, i would have sprayed my computer.  
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 22, 2016 02:09 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 02:15, 22 Nov 2016.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 22, 2016 07:56 AM |
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The original article is an example for manufacturing issues where they don't exist. Women in general are far less interested in video-gaming than men, let alone on professional level, to dig for discrimination, harassment and their kin. In the gaming communities women are virtual princesses (pun intended) because of their rarity and everyone would welcome them in greater numbers - but that's just not something that the majority of them care about.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 22, 2016 08:33 AM |
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Zenofex said:
In the gaming communities women are virtual princesses (pun intended) because of their rarity and everyone would welcome them in greater numbers - but that's just not something that the majority of them care about.
My ex-girlfriend was a gamer + she was really hot, so she was like this dominatrix queen of about 15 Dota boys. It was really fun watching her give them commands, while they were on the mic like "yes, sure, anything else?"
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted November 22, 2016 08:49 AM |
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My ex-girlfriend was a gamer + she was really hot, so she was like this dominatrix queen of about 15 Dota boys. It was really fun watching her give them commands, while they were on the mic like "yes, sure, anything else?"
Sounds like gender discrimination towards the boys to me Artu.
On a serious note, fun to watch/hear such moments.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 22, 2016 10:34 AM |
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I would never hang out with a gamer girl. Better avoid people as dumb as you.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 22, 2016 11:28 AM |
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Haven't read the article yet, but in CS:GO my impression is there are definitely groups of people who seek out women competitions to harass the people involved.
The same goes for mixed competitions, the only difference is they are quite an insignificant part of the audience there.
On the casual level I used to play half a year ago, I saw both sides of the coin.
On one occasion a person who would stay quiet almost an entire game, and when they finally used their voice it turned out it was a girl and she got all sorts of hostile comments simply for being a girl.
On another occasion a person really went out of her way to emphasize she was a girl and got rather upset when no one treated her differently from anyone else.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted November 22, 2016 12:03 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 12:06, 22 Nov 2016.
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It is natural that a gender inequality becoming something archaic, slowly but with no mercy or the any hope to restore it.
This is because of a Scientific and Technological progress and its influence to the society in general.
<imo> I see almost no difference between a male-female, in the many cases, in example a gaming or a , ahh, a military conflicts for example. I think, in general, the woman and a man have much more similar things than a different, and all this inequality stuff is just an another topic (like a "star-trek" kickstarter projects ) for a large amount of the peoples in the rich countries to spent a time for discussing it. . . .
no one idiot will have a single care about the gender, where the only matter is an effectiveness, and the result. The any of the modern powerful states using the potential of the females as hard as possible in the many different spheres as possible. The poor archaic states where still exist a hard gender-inquality traditions, sux as hell, comparing to the previous one in terms of effectiveness, it is obviously.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 22, 2016 12:15 PM |
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Perhaps frostysh, but when it comes to the video games I have experience with, my opinion is that the main reason there is a gender gap in quality among the best players is for the same reason there is in chess, that is there are many more male players and that is in my opinion due to social norms.
If you compare two random groups of competitors where one is much larger than the other, it's much more likely for the strongest (and weakest) competitors to be in the largest group.
If we assume gender indeed plays no role in video games, it follows the reason female gamers at the highest level is worse than their male counterparts is because there are many more guys playing.
In my opinion this is because in our society video games such as fps shooters are generally something young boys are interested in.
That video games is something that are mainly played by the very young may also contribute a lot to the hostile environment one can easily find there.
One of the most used homepages in regard to counter strike, hltv, has a forum that seems to be predominantly very young people. Yet top professional players also have an account there.
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This thread is pages long: 
